[Closed] 27.5 XC Racer? Dont want a 29er....

My riding buddy is 6' 4" and bought an on one 29er just before lockdown. He doesn't like it at all and is spending a bomb re doing his 15 year old Trek 26" xc bike...I would think you need to go s/h or custom....

I think you'll struggle tbh, XC-biased bikes are all 29er now really. What's up with the Scale that you're looking to replace it if it's already the bike you want..?

And why would i replace a perfectly good bike with something ‘inferior’ and more importantly heavier??

Good question
If it ain't broke dont change it
.
[Edit] What he said ^

Its always the lure of a new one.... i have been scanning eBay for another (used) 710 or 700RC 2016/2017 vintage.

I have a 2003 Trek 4900 as a training bike. Needless to say every part of it has been replaced except the frame. Would like to have a newer hardtail XC bike and the scale becomes my training bike (i sold the Cube BTW)

My riding buddy is 6′ 4″ and bought an on one 29er just before lockdown. He doesn’t like it at all

Yep he's a funny one. Bought a scandal in XL and thinks it's a tank.

“ Advice please. Who makes good 27.5XC race machines these days??”

No-one. Not for adults anyway.

“why would i replace a perfectly good bike with something ‘inferior’ and more importantly heavier??”

Because 29” bikes are faster so superior for winning XC races. If you’re not bothered about going faster then you have a good point - save your money, save the planet, ride the bike you have!

Literally nobody makes off the shelf 27.5 race bikes any more. The closest you mare going get is when manufacturers do the "size specific wheelsize" thing where XS and S frames of a given model run on 27.5 wheels e.g. Canyon's Grand Canyon (which isn't strictly a race bike). Even Giant who went all in on 27.5 only do the Anthem and XTC in 29er. Second hand would be your only bet I'd say.

Maybe you might find a Chinese open mould frame in 27.5” with more old style xc geometry - but you may as well keep what you’ve got if it still works.

If you want new / shiny maybe treat it to new forks (sid ultimates are nice - if they make them in 650b) or a bling new set of carbon wheels / fancy groupset?

Trek and Kona still do some small size frames with 27.5" wheels, good chance some other manufacturers do too if you work through their websites.

Its always the lure of a new one…

Sounds like you are setting yourself up for an empty wallet and disappointment TBH.

Yep, keep what you have as it sounds perfect for you. (easy for me to say as I swap bikes, frames a few times a year!) I don't like 29er either but we are in the minority here so have to ride 29er new bikes or 26/27.5 old bikes.

I've wondered what difference a 27'5" actually makes in riding. I mean thats only an increase of 3/4" higher off the ground. Not really that much.

Isla Short used to race one, Silverback iirc.

I think you’ll struggle to find a better 27.5 race bike than the scale. I love mine and I only have the alu version. Spend the cash on nice bits for it 👍

I sometimes idly look at new race bikes and they do 100% seem to be 29ers

Buy a 29er put 27.5" wheels on it.

Looks like we're all on the same page. No 27.5 XC racers anymore. Id like shiney new, but one of the dricvers is i could do with new front forks. We all know its cheaper to buy the complete bike than to buy the bits seperately......

Its got Fox 32 Elite CTD, i'll get a nice set of SIDs for it and then the new wheels....

If lucky enough, like fashion, 29ers will be out and 26/27.5 will be the fashion again!

No offence to Cube owners, but I've never sat on or seen Cube bike that didn't have awful, dated, awkward geometry.

I really wouldn't judge or dismiss 29ers based on one brand.

According to some people on here, if you don't want a 30lb+ 'trail' bike, then you're a 'troll' and an 'idiot' for not listening to them. 😉

I'd quite like a nice, light XC type bike, with wheels that aren't too massive, but they don't seem to exist. I'm more than willing to try a light 29er, but that's not possible right now. As soon as European travel is allowed once more, I intend to go on holiday somewhere with plenty of bike shops, and hire/test a few out over a couple of weeks or so, and then buy one there. This may work out cheaper and easier (and a lot more fun) than trying to source something in the UK. I'm aware some might see this as a 'tax dodge', but that's not the intention; if UK suppliers can't get stuff in, I'm not going to sit around waiting or chance buying something online without having tried it first.

I’m aware some might see this as a ‘tax dodge’,

Not if you declare it to HMRC, as per the rules.

The Cube LTD SL was a nice bike, well equipped. 2 things i didnt like about it was the frame was 'harsh'. Didnt seem to have much give in it. The wheels being 29,i found it wasnt as quick as my 26 or 27.5. Maybe a personal preference, it rolled over the trails well as youd expect, but whats best described as the wheel size rotating mass (best words i can maybe conjure up) it just didnt do it for me. Also The bike just looked BIG. I almost bought a secondhand SWorKS Epic Hardtail, but it was a 29er, and just didnt look right, and after the Cube experiment......

I'll look for XS or S bikes where they are putting the 27.5s on instead of 29s. But still few and far between, and i like riding medium sized frames.
Maybe like Scott offering the 7xx and 9xx ranges for 27.5 and 29 wheels in same models, the juice aint worth the squeeze.... pity.

OP if you fancy spending on a nice light, maybe FS 29er XC bike, we can then do a swap for my 27.5 boardman pro carbon hardtail. Even fitted it with Reynolds black label carbon wheels, and a new SID fork is on its way (non boost front and QR rear makes upgrades like that nice and cheap, if a little harder to find).

I’ve loved it almost to death in the last 6 or so years, but I think 29ers while maybe not better, are at least as good and certainly more plentiful and available. For full disclosure my wife has an Orbea Oiz that I’ve ridden a bit and it’s miles better than the Boardman!

Just pick a 29er/27.5+ frame with a highish bb it will be the same as some 27.5 bikes. There is a massive cross over in geo. Ignore the manufacturer’s stated wheel size and look at the geo.

For example the Santa cruz carbon chameleon with the 27.5+ dropouts has a bottom bracket drop of 47mm. You’d be fine using it with 27.5 wheels.

as per the rules

I wouldn't want to be avoiding the tax on it anyway. I'm assuming I'd not be paying local VAT, and then paying import VAT on arrival? Or; if I pay full price for it (inc local VAT), then use it for a week or whatever, what's the status then? I've never quite understood any of that. And Brexit has made it so much easier to understand, of course. I've never bought anything more expensive than a couple of hundred quid, when abroad.

According to some people on here, if you don’t want a 30lb+ ‘trail’ bike, then you’re a ‘troll’ and an ‘idiot’ for not listening to them.

I think the summary was you're an idiot because you won't try a modern geometry bike before you make up your mind AND seem to think weight is the be all and end all for bimbling about Epping Forest.

bridges

A thread on here about the Bird Aether reveals weights ‘start’ at over 28lbs, and go up over 30! My FSR was a little under 26, and that felt ‘heavy’ in comparison to the Trek hardtail I had, which was about 22lbs. I accept this isn’t really a fair comparison as they are very different bike types, but I’m not seeing any real significant weight loss across bikes. I’m 10.5st, so I don’t need anything super tough.

As was pointed out because in our experience they will climb better than your old FSR but you don't want to try one and keep saying its not possible. Obviously you can't really test it in Epping Forest as there aren't any real hills to speak of but I'm sure plenty of people would have offered you a try somewhere you can.

Im 5′ 5”. Ride medium frames.

Bit of a toss up and something you'd need to try... based on your body shape and size and the specific bike.

I'd share the earlier thoughts on the Cube btw... except different manufacturers tend to have different ideas of "people geometry". Despite having a giant I find they don't fit me well.. my 11yr old son has long legs for his height and I have short legs for mine and my medium XTC (27.5) fits him far better than me whereas a Whyte is always too high for my legs... this goers more or less across the ranges from XC to Enduro so what fits someone the same height as you might not fit you.

At your height I think that makes it EVEN more sensitive on a 29er....

@SSS I've found you a few:

Small & mediums available in either flavour of wheel size:

https://www.polygonbikes.com/product/mountain/syncline-c3/

Created for pro cross-country racers climbing to seize a world-cup podium to racers who are enthusiastic about off road riding.

Those size options are available throughout the range of HT & FS.

👌

Already asked SussedOut Susspension about SIDs they have on their website. The Scale could be getting a nice new front end soon..... I'll keep looking tho. Maybe try a demo day or something, when the world returns to normal and retry a 29er. Try a Scale 920 or something to get a feel.....

I think the summary was you’re an idiot because you won’t try a modern geometry bike before you make up your mind AND seem to think weight is the be all and end all for bimbling about Epping Forest.

Er, I think people simply just didn't understand what I wanted, and suggested something they wanted instead. Which wasn't the advice I was after. Hence why I chose to ignore those who weren't understanding. And the bike won't be just for Epping Forest; if you actually read what I'd posted you'd know this. Oh well.

As was pointed out because in our experience they will climb better than your old FSR but you don’t want to try one and keep saying its not possible.

You really don't read stuff, do you?

I’m more than willing to try a light 29er, but that’s not possible right now

It's actually up there, in black and white. Actual words. That you clearly didn't read. And have you any clue why trying bikes out isn't possible right now? Right. Let's move on.

Just pick a 29er/27.5+ frame with a highish bb it will be the same as some 27.5 bikes. There is a massive cross over in geo. Ignore the manufacturer’s stated wheel size and look at the geo.

This is interesting. I was wondering how much putting smaller wheels on, would affect things. Anyone got any experience of this?

Thanks @QwERTY. USA only and the levelseems to be in line with the Scott Aspect range which is 27.5 available, not same as the Scott Scale range.

Maybe i just need to get taller and heavier......

Er, I think people simply just didn’t understand what I wanted

I'm pretty sure they did... what you wanted is an old school geometry bike that is dependent on weight to climb

and suggested something they wanted instead.

Pretty sure as I said they were speaking from the experience of trying a new geo bike.. and finding out they were wrong. I certainly was...

Which wasn’t the advice I was after. Hence why I chose to ignore those who weren’t understanding.

I don't think you wanted advice though did you? Your responses indicated you wanted someone to agree that modern bikes are heavy and shit.

And the bike won’t be just for Epping Forest; if you actually read what I’d posted you’d know this. Oh well.

I did read and as you'd know if you read then most of us buy a bike for the main use... not the once a year trip or odd weekend etc. (or you buy 2 bikes or you rent a bike on holiday)

It’s actually up there, in black and white. Actual words. That you clearly didn’t read. And have you any clue why trying bikes out isn’t possible right now? Right. Let’s move on.

No clue at all, please explain why you can't borrow a bike from another STWer?
What did I miss?

I regularly ride Epping as my mate and kids can cycle from home....We do a 100 km loop on different bikes from my sub 9lb XC to his FS Enduro. Makes little difference at all except his 120mm travel FS 29er is the comfiest and my lightest XC HT is the least comfy but is more efficient on the road sections but all the modern bikes are comfier and climb better than his old school Epic.

bottom bracket drop of 47mm. You’d be fine using it with 27.5 wheels

My wife has an aversion to 29" wheels so we stuck 27.5x2.4 rubber in her 2018 spark 910 Contessa with a 43mm BB drop.. it did not work. Pedal strikes galore with 165mm cranks.
The Sparks 43mm drop is considered low already.
I'm trying to choose a Chinese carbon frame as a 27.5 kids project at the moment. Everything 'modern' is 29 and I'm trying to get something less than 30mm drop for 152mm cranks.

On another note. My eldest has a spark 700 future pro. It's a regular spark front triangle that as far as I can tell they've paired with the early 27.5 versions rear triangle and linkage giving it a 26mm BB drop and 425mm chainstays
Last year it was available with a carbon front triangle with a 410mm reach so probably only a bit shorter than your current medium.

You may be better seeking a frame. I would suspect *somewhere* has a NOS frame suitable kicking around.

You would have to go pick it up, but:

https://www.cyclery.de/en/gt-zaskar-carbon-pro-275-650b-cross-country-bike-2016-2

Chinese carbon
https://www.carbonal.com.cn/carbon-mountain-bike/carbon-mountain-bike-frame/27-5er.html

No clue at all

Clearly. I think that sums up your 'input'. I have no desire to continue indulging your need for confrontation, and I'm sure everyone else is bored with it too, as it contributes nothing to the discussion. So, if you don't mind, can we just agree to ignore each other from now on? Thanks.

My wife has an aversion to 29″ wheels so we stuck 27.5×2.4 rubber in her 2018 spark 910 Contessa with a 43mm BB drop.. it did not work. Pedal strikes galore with 165mm cranks.
The Sparks 43mm drop is considered low already.

Interesting, and very useful information there.

I regularly ride Epping as my mate and kids can cycle from home….We do a 100 km loop

@stevextc Epping is my local also, I'd be grateful to see your 100km loop?

@matt_outandabout interesting!! Very interesting... thanks.

Kryton
It's an Evans one ... I have it in Komoot somewhere (for reference as my mate knows it all backwards) but might be as easy to search for the Evans Bucks ORS 100km.

If you can't find it I'll see if I can export and put it somewhere for you.

We usually start at Chenies as there is parking (for me) /pub (with beer garden) and the green opposite but its circular so you can jump in wherever you want.

Clearly. I think that sums up your ‘input’.

Um yeah... you said some stuff, its lies and you don't want to go into it ... fair enough.

@kryton57

Let me know if you found the Evans 100km ... I'm away at the moment so it's less simple for me but I can dig it out if you don't find it.

My "quick look in Komoot" I found a modded (60km) version we must have done with the kids or we only had an afternoon or something but I have the original somewhere, its just finding it whilst living in the van.

And why would i replace a perfectly good bike with something ‘inferior’ and more importantly heavier??

Because it's quicker? Or is this a race bike that isn't used for racing?

That was talking about the Spark. Not the Scale.
Yes they are used for racing (10hr, 24hr and Endurance races). But he Spark, thats FS, i much prefer hardtails. So in a law of diminishing returns, no point replacing it. The new ones may be quicker, but probably marginally. So as someone said earlier, no point lightening my wallet.

And why would i replace a perfectly good bike with something ‘inferior’ and more importantly heavier??

Because it’s quicker? Or is this a race bike that isn’t used for racing?

i much prefer hardtails

Well, this is what is confusing. If you want an XC race bike, you want whatever is faster. The reason everyone switched to 29ers was because they are faster. They may be slightly heavier, but weight isn't the only consideration in speed.

Same goes for suspension bikes. Hardtails sprint well on smooth surfaces, but suspension bikes let you stay seated and keep pedaling over rougher terrain. Hardtails feel fast, but the only thing that matters if you are racing is the stopwatch and good XC suspension bikes are faster on rougher courses.

Unless you want a race bike that is more fun to ride but reducing your chances of winning.
A "taking part" bike if you will.

Is a bike used in a race just for fun still a race bike? I remember the guy doing the Malvern Classic on the butcher's bike for example

Is a bike used in a race just for fun still a race bike?

Yep, just not such a good one. Just like a 10kg race bike is not technically as good a race bike as a 9kg bike, both are race bikes.

Definition of futility. Arguing with someone on the internet.....

Do you know any other 27.5 XC race bikes? Not 29er.

Do you know any other 27.5 XC race bikes? Not 29er.

Manufacturers stopped making them because they are slower, therefore not good race bikes. Shouldn't be hard to order a custom frame and build it up if you really want something that isn't available off the shelf.

Looks like its that or buy used, and upgrade the Scale. Or go down a frame size to S.....

“ Definition of futility. Arguing with someone on the internet…..”

A better definition of futility would be trying buy a type of racing product that has been proven to be slower than another type - and therefore is obsolete. See also front engined F1 cars, F1 cars without downforce, non-Thoroughbred race horses, trainers instead of spikes for track athletics, etc etc.

The reason everyone switched to 29ers was because they are faster.

I've looked for actual evidence of this, and all I can find are a couple of not particularly scientific 'tests', and loads of people shouting 'it just is!'. And then there are arguments for smaller wheels being faster in certain situations. So it surely comes down to type of terrain, riding style, size of rider etc. As a smaller person, I feel more comfortable off road on a smaller wheeled bike (yes, I have tried 29ers, before anyone starts screaming at me...). I haven't tried all bikes though, so perhaps there's one that's designed that would suit me better than others. Some manufacturers seem to offer smaller frame sizes with 27.5" wheels, so there must be something in that. I know I'm not the only person wanting to at least have smaller wheeled options available.

Some interesting opinion here (from the beginning to about 3'50"):

In the last few weeks, my research has led me to conclude that trying some bikes out is probably the best way forward, and that fashion still plays as much a part of defining MTBing as it did when I was last properly involved. 😉 Marketing spiel is as virulent as ever, and there are many more things to spend your money on now. Carbon rims, electronic gears, seatposts that go up and down! Marvellous.

’ve looked for actual evidence of this, and all I can find are a couple of not particularly scientific ‘tests’, and loads of people shouting ‘it just is!’

The main thing is that a larger wheel has lower rolling resistance and rolls over obstacles more easily. However, a larger wheel and tyre will be heavier and you need a longer wheelbase to fit them in, so it's a matter of finding the best compromise.

As a smaller person, I feel more comfortable off road on a smaller wheeled bike

Some manufacturers seem to offer smaller frame sizes with 27.5″ wheels, so there must be something in that

Yes, there is a limit to how small a frame you can fit large wheels into. However, if you can find a 29er that fits you, it will probably roll faster than a bike with smaller wheels.

Have a look at the first couple of minutes of this. It does a pretty solid job of explaining 29 dominance in xc bikes without being preachy.

I’ve looked for actual evidence of this, and all I can find are a couple of not particularly scientific ‘tests’, and loads of people shouting ‘it just is!’.

Ride lots of the same loop for many years on a 26". Get a 29" that is heaver bike and has heavier wheels and tyres and ride the same loops for many more years.

I have done that and guess what bike is faster.

The science is about the rolling resistance and a bigger wheel (especially off road) just simply rolls better. Try riding a 20" wheeled bike off road (I have done the a bit too) and you will really notice how wheel size matters.

I haven’t tried all bikes though, so perhaps there’s one that’s designed that would suit me better than others.

That's exactly what people were trying to tell you on your thread ... except you are more into bimbling (which also describes me on XC type terrain) so something more comfortable than an XC race bike might be better. As I mentioned in the other thread "climb better" is a vague request. For XC racing it means faster regardless of the effort used.. for bimbling or endurance then slightly slower but less energy can be defined as better.

with respect to @bridges its my thread @stevextc.

Im not into bimbling.

SSS
Hence why different bikes are appropriate.

@SSS
If you’re interested I have a 2015 XTC 27.5 in medium fits my slightly over 5’ lad and a bit small for my 5’10”

What year did Scott stop doing 27.5 xc race stuff? A friend is a local Scott dealer, and Scott hq (Netherlands?) keeps a stock of frames for warranty replacement which get sold off after something like 3-4yrs. That is probably your best bet if they did something suitable but newer. Any Scott dealer should be able to get one in.

XC courses don't need to be full gnar for suspension - they also offer a big advantage on bumpy rooty tussocky stuff that is a slog to pedal on a hardtail.

Have a look at the first couple of minutes of this

That's exactly the same video I posted earlier.

The main thing is that a larger wheel has lower rolling resistance and rolls over obstacles more easily. However, a larger wheel and tyre will be heavier and you need a longer wheelbase to fit them in, so it’s a matter of finding the best compromise.

The science is about the rolling resistance and a bigger wheel (especially off road) just simply rolls better. Try riding a 20″ wheeled bike off road (I have done the a bit too) and you will really notice how wheel size matters.

I am well aware of all the theory, and I've ridden enough different types of bike/wheel sizes to have a reasonable idea about the physics etc. And as I've said; so far, I prefer smaller wheels off road, for their advantage in certain situations, and the 'feel' of the bike. I really want to try some current bikes out, to see if there is indeed any significant improvement in that regard, with 29ers. I fear bike shops won't have sufficient stock and means for testing for a while though at least. So looking more perhaps for 2022 than this summer really (travel is probably effectively out until Autumn now as well, I'd imagine). Are there still autumn bargains like there used to be? Or will the lack of stock mean shops can flog stuff off at full price regardless? And can anyone answer my queries regarding buying a bike abroad? If I pay full tax and ride it abroad, does it then constitute a 'new' bike in terms of bringing it home?

My wife has an aversion to 29″ wheels so we stuck 27.5×2.4 rubber in her 2018 spark 910 Contessa with a 43mm BB drop.. it did not work. Pedal strikes galore with 165mm cranks.
The Sparks 43mm drop is considered low already.

This is an interesting comment and different from my experience. Both my current hardtail and last hardtail had 45mm bb drops and 27.5” wheels. 170mm cranks. Ran one on 2.4” front / 2.25” rear tyres and the current one is on 2.5” front / 2.6” rear tyres.

I can’t say I really have many pedal strikes despite riding all sorts of terrain on them.

Maybe on a full suss bike with that sort of bb drop it might be more of an issue. My 27.5” full suss bike has less of a drop - I want to say about 25mm but I might be wrong.

joebristol

This is an interesting comment and different from my experience. Both my current hardtail and last hardtail had 45mm bb drops and 27.5” wheels.

FS will be very different, as you have suspension sag changing BB position in addition to BB Drop

And as I’ve said; so far, I prefer smaller wheels off road, for their advantage in certain situations, and the ‘feel’ of the bike. I really want to try some current bikes out, to see if there is indeed any significant improvement in that regard, with 29ers.

There isn't. I know bigger wheels are faster but that doesn't mean I like them. I enjoy riding a 26" wheeled bike more and always will but I am not entering races. If I was I would use 29" as if I am entering a race I may as well try and do the best I can.

@stevextc whats it like and price range? I had a mate who'd buy bikesuse them for the year, trolley them round the Puffer then sell them on eBay as nearly new, knowing it'd been bathing in a grinding paste bath for 24hrs.... you dont do that do you? And would you have to change your forum name?

@bridges a mate of mine would go to US, buy his bikes over there, ride them for say a holiday, so when he brought them back they were classed as 'used', not new so no one ever questioned the tax. Hed be there for a few months for work. So when they unzipped the bag it was obviously used.

@kerley im with you, bigger wheels may be faster (in certain circumstances), but i dont like them either, and tried a 29er, been there, done that....

@mick_r looks to be about 2018 they only did the 27.5+ Scale, now none in the Scale range, only in Aspect (Contessa) and below now

Yeah I'm intimitely familiar with the Aspect and Contessa frames - the shop got buried in orders during lockdown 1 and the only way he could offer half-decent low-mid range mtbs was to build up from frames. I was badgered into helping out at weekends so put plenty of them together.....

Any full sus xc options to go with a refresh of the current hardtail? What year did Nino swap to 29?

2017 for carbon Scale 27.5.
The 27.5 plus bike was great but alloy only and a different build and geo to the regular scales.. slacker but still quite tall and oodles of clearance. I ran mine in both 27.5x3.0 and 29x2.5

2017 spark and 2018 genius brought the 27.5/29 flip chip options. No high spec 27.5 carbon frames since afaik (aside from the future pro spark last year with carbon front alloy rear)

SSS

whats it like and price range?

Its 2015 so a few what I'd class as cosmetic scratches
Price would be some fair non-Covid tax price... its currently 11sp XT and as Advanced 1 except wheels... wheels are some Raceface (something or other) and tyres might be in need of a change.

Currently has a 85mm brand-X dropper but original carbon seatpost.

Fox factory 32's not serviced for a while but feel OK... but probably need doing due to time rather than riding hours

I had a mate who’d buy bikesuse them for the year, trolley them round the Puffer then sell them on eBay as nearly new, knowing it’d been bathing in a grinding paste bath for 24hrs…. you dont do that do you? And would you have to change your forum name?

Nah I'm good at buying but crap at selling them ...

Sadly it has more maintenance hours than riding hours over the last couple of years (hence why if its what you are looking for sounds like a good reason to let go) .. I did the 100km loop last year and a few local rides but otherwise used more by the now 11yr old in the last 2 years..

You're more than welcome to look it over and give it a try and pick and choose what you would want... (all my bikes have Shimano 11sp and 1/2 are 2v pot SLX/XT so groupset etc are all optional.

I'll check with my mate 1st if he wants it for his son (it's still too big but if he's racing XC next year he might want 1st dibs) but otherwise you can view at Woking (home when I'm back next week) or somewhere rideable of a weekend.. (where are you??)

tried a 29er

Only one?

Only one?

I've been pleasantly surprised with all the ones I've tried not that many but from a 160mm Enduro to 120mm XC... and at 5'10" I'd have one myself if it didn't mean buying new rims and building wheels and wheels not being usable on other bikes. (Main reasons I stick with 27.5)

Pivot still do a 27.5 version of their carbon hardtail

27.5 version goes from XS to L
29er goes from S to XL

https://store.pivotcycles.com/en/bike-les-275-2

@stevextc Im near Edinburgh

@RichP cheers!

SSS Bad timing
I’m in N Yorks now with 5 bikes but not the XC