How Much?! Why we should care about the closure of Kitsbow

Search the forum using the power of Google

Overview Chat Bike Members News Women

This topic has 85 replies, 37 voices, and was last updated 8 months ago by James.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 85 total)

1 2 3 →

How Much?! Why we should care about the closure of Kitsbow
jameso
Full Member

It’s sad they couldn’t make it work – or more accurately the market wasn’t there for them to continue. A symptom of a skewed product economy in general?
I really want to see us all buying less stuff but better quality stuff. oc there is a need for choice in price point, perhaps the discussion is partly about what viable durability and quality is for each of us and how many of us can both afford Kitsbow or local handmade frame level choices as well as need/value the durability and repair-ability they offer (or something in between – made in Asia is fine if the product is durable and relevant over a long period). And then, why we should care about sources and lifespans of products and what needs to happen so more people can make those choices. The balance there has been better in the past.

I’m aware of the hypocrisy of me saying this while working in the imported goods industry with all it’s churn. Apart from acknowledging that I won’t get into all that here. Some other place for it.

Posted 8 months ago

dangeourbrain
Full Member

They were charging what they thought product should cost

I think this is as like as not the crux of it. Sustainable, environmentally friendly and fair are sold as a premium option, with a corresponding cost across everything from food to clothing or cars.

There’s a very good chance I’m wrong as I’ve no knowledge of clothing manufacturing but $240 for a shirt sounds like there’s a heavy lean into “this is what we want it to cost” vs “this is what it should cost”.

If we’re ever going to solve the issue of people valuing price over cost we need to get away from a model which days low cost is automatically high price and start to price it at what it needs to sell for rather than what we want it it sell for

That’s always going to be higher than mass produced with no environmental or ethical concerns but it doesn’t necessarily need to be orders of magnitude more. A big part of that is moving away from the endemic pricing model of +x% at every level and selling an item which cost £5 more to make for £5 more not £20 more.

Posted 8 months ago

chakaping
Free Member

Easy to be dismissive about a brand trying to be “the Patagonia of…”, but…

Actually I’m not sure what my “but” is. Shame when people lose their jobs, obviously. Been there done that.

But as JamesO suggests, I’m perfectly happy with my reasonably priced Asian-produced MTB clobber which all lasts me for years anyway.

I’ll be more sustainable/eco-friendly in my decision not to fly, eat little meat and not have a wood burner, cheers.

Posted 8 months ago

the-muffin-man
Full Member

It’s sad they couldn’t make it work – or more accurately the market wasn’t there for them to continue. A symptom of a skewed product economy in general?

Got to agree with this – just no market for it? There are many examples of ethical companies making it work – Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.

Posted 8 months ago

xora
Full Member

there’s every chance you’ve never heard of Kitsbow

This probably says it all about the reason they failed!

Posted 8 months ago

IHN
Full Member

I’m aware of the hypocrisy of me saying this while working in the imported goods industry with all it’s churn.

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

Posted 8 months ago

nickc
Full Member

I’ve heard of Kitsbow, and even browsed their website. I even have the disposable income to spend on their product. I didn’t because they didn’t have anything that I wanted to buy that I thought would add anything to the sorts of riding I do. I get their ethical credentials, and it’s a shame that they couldn’t make it work, but I consider myself to be “an average MTBer” and their products didn’t fit into what I do, then I understand why their business failed.

Posted 8 months ago

tjagain
Full Member

My view ( as a dark green) – its a greenwash company. the answer is consume less . They are that weird thing – “green consumerism” which of course does not work. they are going to miss the real greens as they will not buy unneeded products, they are too expensive for those that want to buy stuff with a green tinge

Posted 8 months ago

irc
Full Member

I bought PHD sleeping bags. Locally made. Paid not much more than kitsbow charge for a shirt though.

Posted 8 months ago

ads678
Full Member

Those prices are **** rediculous. I’ve got Carhartt and Vans flannel shirts that are about 15 years old, look pretty much brand new and cost about £50*!

Yeah they might have been made in asia, but christ they’ll last another 15 years yet. Thats sustainabilty!

*Appreciate they’d cost a bit more now but not £235….

Posted 8 months ago

footflaps
Full Member

They needed Brant to help with marketing – seems a similar setup to HebTroCo, which seems to have a loyal UK following.

Although HTC outsource to local manufacturers rather than making it all in house.

Personally, I’ve never ‘got’ flannel shirts at all and have no idea why they seem so linked to the outdoors.

Posted 8 months ago

Mark
Full Member

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

Can you explain? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn’t arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.

Posted 8 months ago

the-muffin-man
Full Member

Personally, I’ve never ‘got’ flannel shirts at all and have no idea why they seem to linked to the outdoors.

I blame Monty Python – we’re all closet lumberjacks!

Posted 8 months ago

footflaps
Full Member

Those prices are **** rediculous

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers. We’ve got used to buying stuff where the people making it die of dysentery / starve to death in old age etc, but don’t really care as it’s cheap….

Posted 8 months ago

scotroutes
Full Member

$62 for a cup and saucer. Yeah, right.

I’ve never heard of the brand.

Lots of merino in their range, which I find almost wholly inappropriate for cycling.

Styling aimed at the trendy-adventure end of the market which does seem to attract some big spenders so maybe it was just poor marketing.

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

There are many examples of ethical companies making it work – Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.

Sure, there’s other companies making good stuff that’s not in that ‘churned out’ category and putting the usual cynicism raised against them aside Patagonia are an example for businesses in general.
As far as I’m aware Kitsbow were making it all themselves though rather than sourcing, at least more recently. That seems to be the difficult part in all this – to own your manufacturing as well as be reasonably competitive (domestic-made as well as competitive isn’t easy either).
Outsourcing certainly doesn’t mean not being in control of QC and ethics/sustainability but I do see outsourcing overseas as part of how ‘churn brands’ are able to operate, so Kitsbow represented the opposite end of that scale.

Posted 8 months ago

chakaping
Free Member

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.

Are you assuming the buyers are all wedged-up IT consultants? If so, you may have a point.

I’m sure there was an element of aspirational pricing in there though.

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

First, traffic. Because we’re all consumers. Then, the discussions that might change the buying choices of a few.
?

(fwiw I wouldn’t be riding an MTB that has served me very well for 11 years now with nothing but new consumables and a dropper added in all that time – and it’s as relevant to me now as it was then – if I hadn’t seen it reviewed on a bike mag’s website)

Posted 8 months ago

the-muffin-man
Full Member

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.

I don’t believe it does cost that. I think there’s a huge amount of ‘saw you coming’ tax involved.

There’s a company near me that makes womens clothing – all hand-made in Alfreton – not cheap stuff, but not expensive either.

The company – if you are after old-lady clothing!… 🙂
https://www.davidnieper.co.uk/environmental-responsibility

And very well regarded in the area – even the local school is now by their trust…

Home

Posted 8 months ago

tjagain
Full Member

A friend of mine makes bespoke handmade one off clothing in Edinburgh. Highly rate. She could make a shirt for less than that I am sure

Posted 8 months ago

footflaps
Full Member

There’s a company near me that makes womens clothing – all hand-made in Alfreton – not cheap stuff, but not expensive either.

Where does their cotton come from and what standard of living do those farmers have?

Posted 8 months ago

IHN
Full Member

Can you explain? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn’t arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.

Sorry, I did dash my comment off rather quickly, and appreciate that a bit more nuance is needed on my part. It wasn’t meant to be as negative/critical a comment as it probably came across.

Hannah does talk about ‘exploiting the earth and using unsustainable resources’ and ‘the environmental cost of shipping things across the world‘. She’s right, these are bad things, and can be very closely linked, I think, to the predominantly Western problem, obsession even, with what might be called The Acquisition of More Stuff. Much of the economy, and certainly much of the ‘hobbies’ economy, like cycling, is driven by persuading people that the stuff they have already is no longer good enough and that they should buy new stuff.

Magazines/sites like Singletrack are a key part of that process as you obviously depend on the advertising revenue that the promotion of new stuff brings; you’re a cog in the marketing machine. So, a significant part of your output is the review and promotion of New Stuff, because that brings in the readers (because we’re obsessed with it, and we’re all hypocrites), and that brings in the advertising, and that allows you to run your business and pay your staff.

Posted 8 months ago

ads678
Full Member

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.

Or if you want the company owners to earn more than the IT managers buying their over priced kit.

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

I don’t believe it does cost that. I think there’s a huge amount of ‘saw you coming’ tax involved.

Easy to be cynical as they have to position themselves at the high end to stand the eventual RRP. Any rise in cost to make it will be doubled at RRP due to the margins. And I expect they had 3 or 4x the cost to produce Vs imported outsourced items of similar material spec.

Edit to add, they may have been milking it, I’m just seeing this from the side of experience in imported goods sourcing and manufacturing plus some idea of what similar items made in the UK (or EU/USA) could cost. Plus I can jump from why that is to why people in the UK are reliant on cheap tat and have low wages vs the cost of many things too easily. My cynicism is directed more towards the people who run the big companies who import all the tat and pay staff low wages.

Posted 8 months ago

kayak23
Full Member

It’s a very difficult thing to change I think.
We all need to live and will always tend to gravitate to what costs us less to do that. We all do it, all of us who money matters to of course.

But the value we place on certain things I think has skewed almost everything. Not many people care about where things are made, how they’re made and how they get to us, and I don’t know how that can change.

I’m a furniture maker in the UK and the reality is that it is incredibly difficult to earn minimum wage, never mind a so called living wage.

Furniture is terribly undervalued by us all and subject to the whims of fashion, and obviously clothing is this turned up to 11!

Shame.
No answers.

Posted 8 months ago

tjagain
Full Member

Shame.
No answers.

Carbon taxation? then locally produced products attract lower taxation than imported products.

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

Furniture is terribly undervalued by us all and subject to the whims of fashion,

Which is really daft because good quality, timelessly designed furniture can last longer than almost anything else we buy.
(can you post a link to your site?)

Posted 8 months ago

the-muffin-man
Full Member

Where does their cotton come from and what standard of living do those farmers have?

Don’t know down to that level of detail – there’s a fair amount of info on their website – seems they are doing a lot more than most and making all in-house…
https://www.davidnieper.co.uk/environmental-responsibility

I’ve looked and I can’t see on the Kitsbow website where it says where the source their materials from either. There’s a lot of waffle and not much detail. And only just over 50% of their stuff made in the USA which seemed to be their selling point.

And doing a bit more digging – even the maker of the wool they use is making wool shirts for over a $100 less…
https://www.pendleton-usa.com/product/mens-plaid-board-shirt/50000.html?dwvar_50000_color=32555&cgid=men#start=2&cgid=men

I just don’t see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.

Posted 8 months ago

brant
Free Member

Hello. Sorry a bit late on this one.
We make shirts here (or rather, work with three different factories who make shirts for us).

https://hebtro.co/product-category/shirts/

It’s a shame about the Kitsbow thing. Ed’s got a “shirt like a Kitsbow” on a list of stuff he wants to make. And I’ve got a “for under £150” in my head.

Posted 8 months ago

ayjaydoubleyou
Full Member

Since the start of the winter I’ve probably cycled in 3 outfits total:

Night rides – gore soft shell jacket, 9 years old. still as good as when it was made
Weekend rides – rab hoodie (non biking version). bought last autumn based on a recomendation from here.
In both cases, one of my collection of merino or similar shirts, which I wear nearly every day; and one of two pairs of endura riding trousers.
3rd outfit – xc race. club top which I’ve had for years, and dakine shorts that are at least 6 years old.

Some things may be expensive, others cheap. all of them have a decent degree of durability and versatility. I have had some trial and error over the years to arrive at this though.

And I’ve also got some hebtroco jeans on right now. Probably been worn 5 days a week since I bought them.

Point being, if there was something new and decent, to fit in to this, I might well buy it. might need some convincing on a 250 dollar shirt but that is the basic idea. I’m not going to blindly wave a credit card at every FGF just because its there. but I am interested.

Similarly I’m not about to buy the new AXS drivetrain as I’m only a few months into the gen 1 version. But I’m still interested in reading about it.

Posted 8 months ago

ads678
Full Member

The problem isn’t so much that people don’t want to pay for things, it’s that fashion says they should change them too often. Doesn’t matter if it’s clothes, cars, furniture or househod fixtures and fittings. People don’t want to stick with things for too long.

I can understand a tailored garment costing loads more a sits unique and made to measure. But an off the shelf item should be charged at tailored prices. Making 100 shirts is cheaper per item than making 1.

Maybe STW could do an article on sustainability of the usual MTB brands and some smaller ones we might not have heard of. See who’s selling decent stuff, at a fair price, and not killing kids while they’re at it.

Posted 8 months ago

brant
Free Member

I just don’t see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.

The cost to sell a shirt isn’t what it costs to make a shirt. It’s what it costs to make the shirt and support the company that’s making the shirt.

If that’s more than the market will sustain then the business doesn’t work.

For instance I would strongly imagine that Prada pays less for this shirt than we do for our shirts.
https://www.prada.com/gb/en/men/ready_to_wear/denim/products.Denim_shirt.GEC067_12K8_F0557_S_212.html

I would also imagine Prada sell a lot more of them!

Posted 8 months ago

squirrelking
Free Member

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.

@footflaps – genuine question – why do you think someone making a product should have a similar standard of living as the person buying it?

Let’s take an extreme example – Rolls Royces/Lamborghinis/Similarly expensive cars. Should the person building them have a similar standard of living as the person buying it? If they did, do you think they would be building cars?

I’m all for a person being rewarded appropriately for their work but there is a certain point where luxury comes in and it becomes unsustainable or even unreasonable to pay any more. I realise that sounds rather hard nosed and isn’t my intention, I don’t mean that workers should get a bare minimum and no more.

Posted 8 months ago

irc
Full Member

Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

The problem isn’t so much that people don’t want to pay for things, it’s that fashion says they should change them too often. Doesn’t matter if it’s clothes, cars, furniture or househod fixtures and fittings. People don’t want to stick with things for too long.

For some maybe but for others fashion means F all or is something avoided. You can buy fairly timeless things in any product category, flannel checked shirts for middle age men for ex.

Posted 8 months ago

brant
Free Member

Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?

I’m all for a person being rewarded appropriately for their work but there is a certain point where luxury comes in and it becomes unsustainable or even unreasonable to pay any more. I realise that sounds rather hard nosed and isn’t my intention, I don’t mean that workers should get a bare minimum and no more.

From:- https://www.gittemary.com/2020/11/fast-fashion-sweatshops-isnt-a-poorly-paid-job-better-than-no-job.html

Fast facts about fast fashion workers:
There are roughly 40 million garment workers in the world today
Only 2% of whom are paid a livable wage
They are some of the lowest-paid workers in the world
85% of garment workers are women
Fast fashion workers are generally not allowed to form unions or discuss salary

Posted 8 months ago

jameso
Full Member

Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?

Is exploitation a good thing?

Edit – yeah, that link Brant posted. We should be paying more for those items. The companies using those suppliers should pay more and the factories should charge more and pay their staff more so they’re not sweatshops. The gap between imported outsourced and domestic-made would narrow.

Posted 8 months ago

nickc
Full Member

That’s what it really costs to make something

I don’t doubt it TBH, but I doubt that I’m ever going to comfortable spending that much on buying stuff on the web. The hassle of it not fitting and having to return t for a different size (doubling the impact of the transport to get the product to and from me) makes me hesitant to buy. I don’t mind paying the price for clothes, but I do need to be sure they’ll fit me.

HebtroCo is one for this, I’m a 32″ in most high street trousers, I know for a fact that HTC absolutely aren’t. Coupled with the high cost makes for a nervous ordering process, and if I’m spending that much, the last thing I want it for it to be nerve-wracking

Posted 8 months ago

chakaping
Free Member

You can buy fairly timeless things in any product category, flannel checked shirts for middle age men for ex.

Yup, dad style isn’t like normal style.

I’ll still be wearing a lot of the same civvies in 10 or 15 years’ time. Just as I’m still wearing some of the stuff I bought 10 or 15 years ago (e.g. Carharrt hoodie that still looks new, Howies lined jeans with slight wear).

Posted 8 months ago

martinhutch
Full Member

Isn’t part of the problem that if you sell well-made, long-lasting clothing, the customer shouldn’t need to come back and buy again for years? Which is great, but doesn’t necessarily fit the scale of company we’re talking about here.

At some point expansion or even sustaining your size is not possible, because the customer base is mostly satisfied and busy wearing out their current clothing.

Doesn’t mean that any of these firms are not worthy, we should all be buying stuff that lasts us many years.

Posted 8 months ago