How Much?! Why we should care about the closure of Kitsbow

They were charging what they thought product should cost

I think this is as like as not the crux of it. Sustainable, environmentally friendly and fair are sold as a premium option, with a corresponding cost across everything from food to clothing or cars.

There’s a very good chance I’m wrong as I’ve no knowledge of clothing manufacturing but $240 for a shirt sounds like there’s a heavy lean into “this is what we want it to cost” vs “this is what it should cost”.

If we’re ever going to solve the issue of people valuing price over cost we need to get away from a model which days low cost is automatically high price and start to price it at what it needs to sell for rather than what we want it it sell for

That’s always going to be higher than mass produced with no environmental or ethical concerns but it doesn’t necessarily need to be orders of magnitude more. A big part of that is moving away from the endemic pricing model of +x% at every level and selling an item which cost £5 more to make for £5 more not £20 more.

It’s sad they couldn’t make it work – or more accurately the market wasn’t there for them to continue. A symptom of a skewed product economy in general?

Got to agree with this – just no market for it? There are many examples of ethical companies making it work – Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.

I’m aware of the hypocrisy of me saying this while working in the imported goods industry with all it’s churn.

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

My view ( as a dark green) – its a greenwash company.  the answer is consume less .  They are that weird thing – “green consumerism” which of course does not work.  they are going to miss the real greens as they will not buy unneeded products, they are too expensive for those that want to buy stuff with a  green tinge

Those prices are **** rediculous. I’ve got Carhartt and Vans flannel shirts that are about 15 years old, look pretty much brand new and cost about £50*!

Yeah they might have been made in asia, but christ they’ll last another 15 years yet. Thats sustainabilty!

*Appreciate they’d cost a bit more now but not £235….

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

Can you explain? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn’t arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.

Those prices are **** rediculous

That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers. We’ve got used to buying stuff where the people making it die of dysentery / starve to death in old age etc, but don’t really care as it’s cheap….

There are many examples of ethical companies making it work – Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.

Sure, there’s other companies making good stuff that’s not in that ‘churned out’ category and putting the usual cynicism raised against them aside Patagonia are an example for businesses in general.
As far as I’m aware Kitsbow were making it all themselves though rather than sourcing, at least more recently. That seems to be the difficult part in all this – to own your manufacturing as well as be reasonably competitive (domestic-made as well as competitive isn’t easy either).
Outsourcing certainly doesn’t mean not being in control of QC and ethics/sustainability but I do see outsourcing overseas as part of how ‘churn brands’ are able to operate, so Kitsbow represented the opposite end of that scale.

And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.

First, traffic. Because we’re all consumers. Then, the discussions that might change the buying choices of a few.
?

(fwiw I wouldn’t be riding an MTB that has served me very well for 11 years now with nothing but new consumables and a dropper added in all that time – and it’s as relevant to me now as it was then – if I hadn’t seen it reviewed on a bike mag’s website)

A friend of mine makes bespoke handmade one off clothing in Edinburgh.  Highly rate.  She could make a shirt for less than that I am sure

Can you explain? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn’t arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.

Sorry, I did dash my comment off rather quickly, and appreciate that a bit more nuance is needed on my part. It wasn’t meant to be as negative/critical a comment as it probably came across.

Hannah does talk about ‘exploiting the earth and using unsustainable resources’ and ‘the environmental cost of shipping things across the world‘. She’s right, these are bad things, and can be very closely linked, I think, to the predominantly Western problem, obsession even, with what might be called The Acquisition of More Stuff. Much of the economy, and certainly much of the ‘hobbies’ economy, like cycling, is driven by persuading people that the stuff they have already is no longer good enough and that they should buy new stuff.

Magazines/sites like Singletrack are a key part of that process as you obviously depend on the advertising revenue that the promotion of new stuff brings; you’re a cog in the marketing machine. So, a significant part of your output is the review and promotion of New Stuff, because that brings in the readers (because we’re obsessed with it, and we’re all hypocrites), and that brings in the advertising, and that allows you to run your business and pay your staff.

I don’t believe it does cost that. I think there’s a huge amount of ‘saw you coming’ tax involved.

Easy to be cynical as they have to position themselves at the high end to stand the eventual RRP. Any rise in cost to make it will be doubled at RRP due to the margins. And I expect they had 3 or 4x the cost to produce Vs imported outsourced items of similar material spec.

Edit to add, they may have been milking it, I’m just seeing this from the side of experience in imported goods sourcing and manufacturing plus some idea of what similar items made in the UK (or EU/USA) could cost. Plus I can jump from why that is to why people in the UK are reliant on cheap tat and have low wages vs the cost of many things too easily. My cynicism is directed more towards the people who run the big companies who import all the tat and pay staff low wages.

Shame.
No answers.

Carbon taxation?  then locally produced products attract lower taxation than imported products.

Where does their cotton come from and what standard of living do those farmers have?

Don’t know down to that level of detail – there’s a fair amount of info on their website – seems they are doing a lot more than most and making all in-house…
https://www.davidnieper.co.uk/environmental-responsibility

I’ve looked and I can’t see on the Kitsbow website where it says where the source their materials from either. There’s a lot of waffle and not much detail. And only just over 50% of their stuff made in the USA which seemed to be their selling point.

And doing a bit more digging – even the maker of the wool they use is making wool shirts for over a $100 less…
https://www.pendleton-usa.com/product/mens-plaid-board-shirt/50000.html?dwvar_50000_color=32555&cgid=men#start=2&cgid=men

I just don’t see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.

Since the start of the winter I’ve probably cycled in 3 outfits total:

Night rides – gore soft shell jacket, 9 years old. still as good as when it was made
Weekend rides – rab hoodie (non biking version). bought last autumn based on a recomendation from here.
In both cases, one of my collection of merino or similar shirts, which I wear nearly every day; and one of two pairs of endura riding trousers.
3rd outfit – xc race. club top which I’ve had for years, and dakine shorts that are at least 6 years old.

Some things may be expensive, others cheap. all of them have a decent degree of durability and versatility. I have had some trial and error over the years to arrive at this though.

And I’ve also got some hebtroco jeans on right now. Probably been worn 5 days a week since I bought them.

Point being, if there was something new and decent, to fit in to this, I might well buy it. might need some convincing on a 250 dollar shirt but that is the basic idea. I’m not going to blindly wave a credit card at every FGF just because its there. but I am interested.

Similarly I’m not about to buy the new AXS drivetrain as I’m only a few months into the gen 1 version. But I’m still interested in reading about it.

I just don’t see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.

The cost to sell a shirt isn’t what it costs to make a shirt. It’s what it costs to make the shirt and support the company that’s making the shirt.

If that’s more than the market will sustain then the business doesn’t work.

For instance I would strongly imagine that Prada pays less for this shirt than we do for our shirts.
https://www.prada.com/gb/en/men/ready_to_wear/denim/products.Denim_shirt.GEC067_12K8_F0557_S_212.html

I would also imagine Prada sell a lot more of them!

Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?

Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?

I’m all for a person being rewarded appropriately for their work but there is a certain point where luxury comes in and it becomes unsustainable or even unreasonable to pay any more. I realise that sounds rather hard nosed and isn’t my intention, I don’t mean that workers should get a bare minimum and no more.

From:- https://www.gittemary.com/2020/11/fast-fashion-sweatshops-isnt-a-poorly-paid-job-better-than-no-job.html

Fast facts about fast fashion workers:
There are roughly 40 million garment workers in the world today
Only 2% of whom are paid a livable wage
They are some of the lowest-paid workers in the world
85% of garment workers are women
Fast fashion workers are generally not allowed to form unions or discuss salary

That’s what it really costs to make something

I don’t doubt it TBH, but I doubt that I’m ever going to comfortable spending that much on buying stuff on the web. The hassle of it not fitting and having to return t for a different size (doubling the impact of the transport to get the product to and from me) makes me hesitant to buy. I don’t mind paying the price for clothes, but I do need to be sure they’ll fit me.

HebtroCo is one for this, I’m a 32″ in most high street trousers, I know for a fact that HTC absolutely aren’t. Coupled with the high cost makes for a nervous ordering process, and if I’m spending that much, the last thing I want it for it to be nerve-wracking

Isn’t part of the problem that if you sell well-made, long-lasting clothing, the customer shouldn’t need to come back and buy again for years? Which is great, but doesn’t necessarily fit the scale of company we’re talking about here.

At some point expansion or even sustaining your size is not possible, because the customer base is mostly satisfied and busy wearing out their current clothing.

Doesn’t mean that any of these firms are not worthy, we should all be buying stuff that lasts us many years.