Really want to link to this in the current ‘reframing’ forum thread, but it might get lost due to the circular argument that’s derailed that thanks to some usual suspects…

Hadn’t really though about it in these terms, but this summary of the paper (will read in full later) totally echoes what’s happened in our local woods recently. Those of us who have been riding there a while have a few old school ‘loops’ we regularly ride but, following increased harvesting, the new trails that have gone in are all ‘laps’ focussed on the few small bits of selevation we do have. The longer loops have evolved to take in the laps but equally I might just ping along the forest roads direct to the hotspots and lap round those for a bit before heading home.

That was the original trail centre design. Winch up on fireroad, descend on nice snaking singletrack designed to flow and lose altitude only gradually.

However, especially with the advent of e-MTB, it’d be great to see some much more technical climbs, steeper options – in the same way that descents have chicken runs and red/black options, some super steep/technical e-bike climbs, some interesting but doable on a “normal” MTB climbs and the fireroad option would be a good way of adding some variety.

FWIW, I think Leeds Urban Bike Park manages to pack an incredible amount of flowing singletrack into a really confined space, the trail building there is amazing.

Some old trail centres have managed to do pretty much this, whether by design or luck or evolution. Look at Glentress frinstance- there’s the option of big laps and starting out with a climb, but, equally you can drive to the buzzzard’s nest and then suddenly you’re in the middle of a huge load of loops, large and small. You can to the top or bottom of the red or blue, a bit of zoom or bust or the newer unofficial trails like careless whisper, or just do endless laps of berm baby berm and the freeride if you want. Loads of stuff nests really nicely or exists as options, like broon troot dropping onto the black climb and leading you nicely back in… You can mix it all up a million different ways. Or ride up from peebles and end the ride on the fort descent and again be basically back in town. Or, if you really like, you can ride a loop.

Course, that seems to be in the process of being undone with the new developments but it really did/does work bloody well considering there was never one hand on the design over all those years.

Innerleithen’s become much the same- the red route there isn’t popular any more but the uplift road winding up the hill plus the red going further out to link stuff up works superbly. There’s maybe not a better short loop anywhere than angry sheep, just spin back up the road. Just, unfortunately it’s halfway up the hill.

But I do like offroad climbs- yeah, the golfy is entirely about teh descents and that’s great but imagine something exactly like that but with a glentress or afan-ish climb instead. The trip back up goes so much faster. Especially when it’s howling wind, pissing rain or just really hot. Of course the descent’s more important but a good climb adds so much to the experience.

This was very much written from a certain perspective I feel. Nothing wrong with that but other perspectives are available. The whites level climb at afan, before the felling was a great climb that got you up there without feeling like a slog. A climb to start warms you up. I ride from home mostly and it’s 300m climbing over about 7km on road. If I ever take the car or get a lift I never feel quite right on the first descent. From the author’s viewpoint my local spot has it just right…

That’s an interesting reflection on the Vancouver trails.

I was in seventh heaven when I moved out there, Fromme was my regular stomping ground, but after a few months I realised that having ridden (or at least ‘discovered’ on foot 🙄) most of the trails on the mountain I sort of got bored. The appeal of riding the same trails repeatedly just sort of wore off.

That’s why back in Scotland I’ve embraced gravel biking so wholeheartedly, I can happily spin along on the tarmac to a new area just to explore some new singletrack or gravel connection then spin back home.

I guess for me New trail > Good trail (although New trail often = good trail happily).

Not really relevant to trail centre design I guess unless there was an army of trail fairies building constantly 😎

UK-FLATLANDER hit it on the head for me, “To me it mirrors so many other aspects of modern life – has to be served up at high speed, with minimal effort.”

I get it, lots of riders now like to be propelled up climbs by a battery or an uplift, but let’s not forget the riders that see MTB as more rounded exercise. For that to work, we need interesting climbs. I have some great ‘wild’ ‘ski lift’ trails near me which I tend to fit a few runs of into a longer more XC style loop. I enjoy being challenged by the handful of technical runs sandwiched into my ride, but I also enjoy clocking up some KMs of continually pedalling.

Oh and this is probably a me problem, but I find up-and-down in a small area (even with lots of different ways down) pretty tedious after a little while.

It would be good to see the trail centres re-imagined for the next generation. LIke lots of riders, I travelled from Yorkshire to Wales and Scotland to experience them but these days my eye has been drawn to the wilder variety.

If I visit them now its to ride with my wife and child, for this use they are very frustrating but easily improved by adding options.

Climbing trails need easier bypasses round technical options. Even the smallest of steps can be a problem for little wheels and legs. It is soul destroying to keep getting off (its how you feel when you are out of your depth on a steep descent). This might also stop the whingers who complain everytime a hard working volunteer re-instates a section of trail to its previous smoothness, the harder option can be left to become increasingly more difficult.

Along and descents just need more options and signposts to show you how to loop around for aother go. This way you can roll through the blue option then the red and maybe the black.

I think the much maligned Dalby, with the right signage and the adoption of some of the wild trails could be amazing for families. Once you know the place its easy to find lots of great descents and the climbs aren’t too high. I imagine that with the addition of a couple of new official blue flow trails and an easy climb in the right area it would work.
Just providing better signage to break the place down into shorter loops using the existing network would be a great start…

That’s a good read, and a really positive perspective.
I think one thing that’s potentially missing from the discussion is the general impact of trail centres over the last 20-odd years; Coed Y Brenin was transformational, and I’ve noticed a massive change in the way people think about riding since it appeared. Most of my riding is from my doorstep in the Surrey Hills, and we’re pretty fortunate to have exactly the sort of trail structure that Dave maps out at Cwm Carn. Maybe it’s not fortunate – it’s more like years of work from lots of people, often working independently.
The IMBA Stacked Loop system is something we used (again) 20 odd years ago to talk about the structure of wild trails in the Surrey Hills when we talked to landowners about Summer Lightning and the other trails we ended up building; what we (ie Redlands) talked about was a set of trails that addressed problems both mountain bikers and land owners faced at the time: mountain bikers would find popular trails were congested or hammered from over use, and landowners then found lots of new trails as a result, or mountain bikers spreading out onto multi-use paths or trails, which resulted in conflict. By building or maintaining a small number of high-volume trails for heavy use (Summer Lightning, BKB, Yoghurt Pots as examples) a lot of pressure came off the surrounding area; most people wanted to ride stuff built to a certain standard with no hidden surprises or unexpected features.
This has worked quite well for a long time, certainly longer than Redlands Trails was around – the Hurtwood trail builders are now doing some really great stuff, for example.
But it’s also meant that Forestry takes a quite different approach to stuff; when a section of Summer Lightning burned down in August, two sections of the trail were closed and won’t be re-opened any time soon, by the sounds of it.

The paper didn’t win me over. It starts by being rude about riding on Bridleways. I’ve had loads of great rides on Bridleways.

Secondly he seems to be avoiding talking about Coed y Brenin. I seem to remember loads of interesting trails without any climbing before you start riding them. Yes the trails are organised in loops. But with the Map you can combine any amount of fire road climbing and descents at a level you choose. It worked really well for us as a family. I think the Blue at Whinlatter is also free from a qualifying climb.

I’m also note that car park at the bottom, next to the road , is probably a practical consideration. I’d also say interesting natur narrow climbs were a response to rider demand

I have enjoyed riding up the obvious easy ascent drop down the have dug trail stuff. But in climbing terms it feels like bouldering. My favourite rides are more like multi pitch routes.

However it’s good to be challenged in one’s thinking. So I’m glad I read the article

@mugboo

Climbing trails need easier bypasses round technical options. Even the smallest of steps can be a problem for little wheels and legs. It is soul destroying to keep getting off

Hadn’t really appreciated that – the trickiest bits of the climbs at both Cwmcarn (rocky/rooty section) and Afan (a step) were both clearable but a challenge and I thought it was dumbing down removing and flattening them. An alt. line would be a much better answer.

@bentudder

But it’s also meant that Forestry takes a quite different approach to stuff; when a section of Summer Lightning burned down in August, two sections of the trail were closed and won’t be re-opened any time soon, by the sounds of it

Any idea why? I’ve not tried riding it but the burnt section is looks almost entirely intact (except maybe where they drove a truck over it) and the next section with the rocky entrance is completely fine (tape keeps appearing with some notice about ‘dangerous trees’ but not clear what the actual issue is (trees fall in the forest the whole time, if there one particular one get a chainsaw on it).

@bentudder

When that and other sections (notably the bit after the burnt out SUV) were harvested years back, what was a hectic speeder bike run through Endor suddenly became quite bland and boring; basically, we had to make it more swoopy and twisty because you could see a lot further ahead, and so had plenty more time to react to changes in direction.

I remember, but hadn’t appreciated the rerouting that was done. Certainly post SUV has got denser and denser over the years but the recently burnt bit remained really low – and ground cover is already coming back. I’m pretty sure there was a Specialized organised dig day on Summer Lightning in the last year or two so they should have the contacts- maybe that would be the best place to push (will try)

What sargey2003 said. All true.

Anyway, it need not be either or at Trail Centres, as seen at Forrest of Dean… loops can be combined with descents fanning out from the top of a climb or push… all in the same woods. Likewise, family blue stuff and fun for the older idiots can coexist well. Needs good signage and good manners all around though.

@JonEdwards

When I bring up using funding to make climbs rather than descents, I usually get pointed/laughed at.

I must admit I’ve had some odd looks from people when they’ve seen me working on a climb or stone pitching a boggy flat bit of the connecting trails.

Is there a confirmational bias or perception issue though?

Places like that look busy because people are hanging around the trailheads, or you’re passing them going in different directions. Trail centers feel empty because apart from the one person you overtake and the one that overtakes you, the other 500 people in the car park may as well not exist.

This was very much written from a certain perspective I feel. Nothing wrong with that but other perspectives are available. The whites level climb at afan, before the felling was a great climb that got you up there without feeling like a slog. A climb to start warms you up. I ride from home mostly and it’s 300m climbing over about 7km on road. If I ever take the car or get a lift I never feel quite right on the first descent. From the author’s viewpoint my local spot has it just right…

There’s definitely a good compromise level. Llandegla for example is one long, just about interesting enough not to be dull, climb to the top, followed by 4 (I think) main descents where you descend around half the hill, before climbing back up about a third of it. Strikes a happy balance in my mind because you quickly forget the 20min climb to the top and the rest feels like you’re just getting good VFM for the effort.

(We’ll ignore how rubbish the blue is)

I don’t mind a hillside dotted with trails that you can link together with a bit of local knowledge, but the ski resort model really doesn’t work for me. I want to feel like a ride actually went somewhere. The best bits of rides are getting to the top and pointing back at the last hill and seeing where we’ve been, and at the next hill and saying that’s where we’re heading.

If all you want to do is ride up and down a hillside, you may as well do it behind the nationwide in Swindon, at least then it’s accessible to more of the country.

Putting the flat-but-fun bits near the car park just leaves you with Swinley (and I guess that makes the clubhouse the ski resort bit), and look how fashionable it is to hate riding there!

Something to remember in all of this is these newer trails have been built by riders, for riders… I know from my time as a professional trail builder that this is a rare luxury; all too often, there are a variety of obstacles to overcome when dealing with client concerns (and demands), time constraints and a myriad of other factors , which often result in trails not being the very best they can be from a riders perspective.

Another factor to consider; rider built trails minimize environmental impact; rather than having access to hundreds of tonnes of exotic quarried surfacing materials transported to site by huge 8×4 tippers, then distributed by dumpers (varying from 0.75 tons for tight access to 9 tons for stockpiling and/or direct application using the digger to unload from the skip) and a fleet of diggers to create the trail in the first place, aside from the odd drainage pipe, for the most part, rider dug trails use only local materials (often lugged around by flexitub, or if it’s a proper luxury build, a wheelbarrow), far more in tune with the local ecosystem; it wouldn’t be unfair to surmise that the carbon footprint of a handbuilt trail as opposed to a machine built trail (using contractors who themselves are transported to the area, before returning home for weekends (except for overseas builds, where 10 day stints offer the best balance between energy levels and the economics of air travel)) is many hundreds, if not several thousand times less… and the result is often more fun to ride to boot!

That said, I do see the challenge (fun is not an easy word to use in this instance, type 2 fun at best!) of technical climbs and from what I can see, Dave is not specifically advocating against them, merely observing that by using existing infrastructure (i.e. fireroads) the impact on the landowner is minimal; whatsmore, should the worst happen (not a common occurence, but worth noting in terms of mitigating danger), access for emergency services is much improved… that’s not to say technical climbs are off the menu; I’ve designed and built a loop which integrates aspects of the old and the new; most of the climbing uses fireroads, but there’s also the spicy twang of bedrock bridleway to keep the masochists happy, all working towards views that can set a fire in even the dampest soul.

Overall, I’m well impressed by the report, the main function of which appears to be to expand the horizons of landowners and help convey the parallels between MTB and skiing for the sake of understanding, rather than dictate mandates for the future of the sport.

Yea, it’s a fair reflection on the state of trail building/trail centres. He makes some really good points about how trail centres can be developed to suit modern riders.

The best climbs are ones which don’t ‘feel’ like hard work. ie lots of twisty turns, nice views, bit of trailside interest etc.

IME, the best trails are ones which have been built by hand for the most part, using small tools and equipment – you retain that singletrack feel/winding through the trees element!

Wtf is interesting about the llandegla climb? There’s no technical interest in it whatsoever.

Agreed. Apart from a few minor sections early on, which might be moderately entertaining on an xc bike at full sprint, there is nothing of interest at all.
It does serve a good purpose of being a) an excellent warm up and b) makes the rest of the trail a net downhill.
I can see it being miserable for kids/beginners, although they do have a blue trail for that.

Golspie’s the same, it’s lactic ladder’s technical physical climb that gets the headlines but the lower down stuff is just absolutely gorgeous as you spin up through the big trees

Yes! I almost, almost, enjoyed the climb there as much as the descent. Absolute belter of a climb.

Has anyone noticed how “Enduro Trousers” have the same cut as old school Ronhill and evreyone is wearing bumbags?

There’s lots to think about in trail design, it’s not my area so I’ll leave it to people who know more. One thing I’d be conscious of, though, is that things move in cycles. All disciplines go through ups and downs and it would be good to think about a long term plan rather than meeting just the immediate needs. I love Thrunton, You ride up one or two big tracks and have loads of ways down. It would bore the hell out of me for XC marathon riding which I also do. Kielder is great for that but kind of easy for Enduro. It has phenomenal gravel opportunity though. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket catering for LLS trail bikes when in 5 years everyone is going to be turning up looking for a nice fast technical XC loop to race on.

All different ways to be more than just a fire road spin.

Some very good points there… thinking about it, I guess one of the reasons the Nant Yr Arian climb is less likely to dishearten novice riders is that rather than being hemmed in by trees, isolated from the wider world, there is immediate views, giving feel good vibes from the get go; better still when the kites are feeding or there’s a few riders descending the trails that are plainly visible from the climb.