Singletrack World Response to Nadine Dorries’ Comments on Trans Athletes

A few posters have (repeatedly) expressed an opinion along the lines of “trans women are still men so they shouldn’t be allowed into women’s ‘safe spaces’ or sporting events”. That being the case, presumably they would be perfectly happy with trans men being in those arenas because they’re still women?

Absolutely. Transmen are women, and any woman, whatever her appearance, should be safe and welcome in any space set aside for women, subject to meeting the same entry criteria as demanded of other women. It may be that medication a transwoman takes to change her appearance (testosterone, for example) would disqualify her from some competitions.

Likewise, transwomen are men and should be safe and welcome in any space set aside for men, subject again to meeting the same entry criteria as required of other men.

Sex based sporting categories do not exist to separate individuals on any basis but that of their sex. It is disingenuous to claim that women’s sport should be made available to men who choose to artificially reduce their physical capabilities.

Or is it just manufactured ‘concern’ based on some edge cases to try and make it seem like trans women’s rights can only come at the expense of women’s rights?

Accepting transwomen as women renders meaningless any idea of sex based rights.

It’s just a way for people who, for whatever reason, want to discriminate against or exclude Trans people to gaslight everyone into treating acceptance of trans people’s right to exist as a false dichotomy set against women’s rights…

It is not discriminatory to recognize that humans cannot change sex and that transwomen are men.

Enforcing sex based sporting categories does not exclude transwomen from playing sport. They are welcome to compete in the sporting categories that their sex qualifies them for, ie mens sport and mixed sport.

Transpeople clearly exist (and have every right to exist) as persons of one sex who believe themselves to be of the opposite sex. That they hold this belief to be true does not mean it is.

I don’t agree. The divide is between people who believe transwomen are women and those who don’t.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that doesn’t describe anyone I know.

Transmen are women, and any woman, whatever her appearance, should be safe and welcome in any space set aside for women, subject to meeting the same entry criteria as demanded of other women.

The entry criteria is “being a woman,” n’est-ce pas? Which, to your mind at least, is seemingly clearly defined. Scientifically, and everything.

So you’d by your own arguments be perfectly happy with a fully transitioned trans male, six feet tall and 200 pounds with a beard and a penis, in your women’s safe spaces so long as they were biologically identified as female at birth. Because they’re still a woman and not a man.

Have I missed anything?

If you are going to put you fingers in your ears and shout “MEN ARE MEN AND WOMEN ARE WOMEN!!!’ over and over again then there is no debate to be had.

Equally applies the other way. If you put your fingets in your ears and refuse to understand the real concerns many women have and that have occured with the inclusion of trans women in women only safe spaces then thete is no debate to be had. These women i know are nor denying trans women are women.

The shutting down of debate and the no platforming of anyone who expresses concern is a truely scary issue. To write off concerns and to refuse to listen is not a good point and polarises the debate. Id love you to debate this with some of these women i know. The thought that it was because the younger women do not know a time before safe spaces for women existed came from one of them

I cant find a primary source for the uk case i know of but it hapoened in a stonewall shelter. Trans woman was admitted to the shelter and bullied the other women there until they were made to leave.

To pretend this is not an issue is to hide from reality

https://torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

The debate should be how can we find safety for trans women without compromise to the safety of the non trans women.

There are two sexes, male and female.

If sex in binary then there is a single defining factor that makes you male or female.

That single defining characteristic does not exist and therefore your argument that there are only two sexes is wrong. Sex is a definition, not a state.

Being intersex is not a medical condition. It is a perfectly valid state.

Sometimes there may be some medical issues related to being intersex, sometimes related to gender identity or sometimes not, but many people are able to live healthy normal lives without any medical intervention.

This constant insistence that their existence is somehow less than or that they suffer from a tragic medical condition leads to continued discrimination against both intersex and transgender people.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that doesn’t describe anyone I know.

I’m literally arguing with someone who just said transmen are women and transwomen are men on this very thread. These people exist and I don’t even think they are in the minority (in the UK, at least).

If sex in binary then there is a single defining factor that makes you male or female.

There is.

The sex cells your body produces (or produced, or will produce, or would have produced absent genetic or developmental conditions). Men produce small mobile gametes – sperm. Women produce large immobile gametes – eggs.

This is the single factor that describes whether any human (including those with intersex conditions) is male or female.

Being intersex is not a medical condition. It is a perfectly valid state.

Yep. And intersex individuals are either male or female.

This constant insistence that their existence is somehow less than or that they suffer from a tragic medical condition leads to continued discrimination against both intersex and transgender people.

I have never claimed that a transpersons existence is less than that of a non trans person. Nor have I described intersex conditions as tragic.

The sex cells your body produces (or produced, or will produce, or would have produced absent genetic or developmental conditions).

So you’re saying that Caster Semenya is male?

And because she is male she should go to the men’s prison and be denied entry to women’s shelters?

So you’re saying that Caster Semenya is male?

Yes. Caster Semenya has testes and therefore is male.

So if she’s convicted of a crime she should go to the men’s prison?

Male prisoners should not be housed in women’s prisons. If a custodial sentence is necessary and a mens prison the only non womens prison option, then yes.

If she has an abusive partner she should be denied entry to a women’s refugee?

Yes. Support and protection should be available to all who suffer any form of abuse but womens refuges are to provide support and protection for abused women.

What is your definition of ‘women’?

Bruce. Good answer to me above. You were polarising the debate a little but to be clear i wasn’t accusing you of shutting it down.

There are two issues of concern. One is that some men will pretend to be transgender to get attemt to get access to vulnerable women. As you say proper vetting etc should refu e that risk. Tbe other issue is that some women in for exampke womens refuges will be scared of trans women thus admitting trans women to these safe spaces trampkes o their right to a space they feel safe in. A much harder issue to resolve because whichever way you deal with it someone is having their rights trampmed on. This is why there is a divide over trans inclusion in womens only safe spaces. Please dont just dismiss that concern. Its real

Ill look for further links including statements from womens refuges around this an exampmes of people abusing safe spaces later. Two of the women i refered to that is concerned about these issues are involved in the running of refuges

Tbe other issue is that some women in for exampke womens refuges will be scared of trans women thus admitting trans women to these safe spaces trampkes o their right to a space they feel safe in. A much harder issue to resolve because whichever way you deal with it someone is having their rights trampmed on. This is why there is a divide over trans inclusion in womens only safe spaces. Please dont just dismiss that concern. Its real

I think it’s important to know something with this kind of statement. Is it a fear of real life flesh and blood transwomen or is it a fear of the idea of transwomen?

As I said, I live in a country where I can transition by filling out a form. The things people in the UK are concerned are going to happen just haven’t happened in reality.

What is your definition of ‘women’?

It’s difficult to come up with an exhaustive list that covers every edge case but if I had to start somewhere I would start with them saying, ‘I am a woman’ and go from there.

Why is this definition so important to you? You’ve already shown with you comments about Caster Semenya that your simple definition doesn’t survive even a cursory interaction with the real world.

Maybe a simple one line definition is not going to be the solution to this issue?

BruceWee

I don’t know. I haven’t read any primary source research that shows (note, that shows, not concludes) that there is.

Laudable.

BruceWee
If you have any primary sources then feel free to post them. It would be best if you read them completely first though. Many (perhaps all) of them have some questionable methods or conclusions.

I’m not in a position to judge the worthiness of scientific research TBQH. I’m just trying to follow the debate and understand your position.

If a six foot tall, 200 pound woman wishes to abuse other women, whether or not she a beard or a pseudo penis is irrelevant.

Is it not in fact highly relevant if your solution is to put that person inside female-only safe spaces in the first place?

This makes absolutely no sense. You’re strongly against putting M2F trans people who might for all practical purposes be indistinguishable from women-by-birth, because Safeguarding. Yet you’d cheerfully stick an F2M trans person in there who clearly presents as male and likely has a bigger cock than you do simply because they were born female 40 years ago?

America has ‘coed’ prisons.

They tend not to put sex offenders in those, though.

Some countries have separate prisons or wings for transgender prisoners.

Why do you suppose that might be? I thought women are women and men were men, end of story?

Do these wings separate out trans men and trans women? I tried to look it up but I couldn’t find a single example of a transgender prison wing, which countries do this?

I think it’s important to know something with this kind of statement. Is it a fear of real life flesh and blood transwomen or is it a fear of the idea of transwomen?

By my understanding its not a fear of trans. Its a fear of deep voices and men. It may not be logical and would of course depend on individuals and where they are in transition

These are vulnerable women escaping abuse so may not be thinking logically at all.

Is it not in fact highly relevant if your solution is to put that person inside female-only safe spaces in the first place?

This makes absolutely no sense. You’re strongly against putting M2F trans people who might for all practical purposes be indistinguishable from women-by-birth, because Safeguarding. Yet you’d cheerfully stick an F2M trans person in there who clearly presents as male and likely has a bigger cock than you do simply because they were born female 40 years ago?

Any prison will have prisoners who present a threat to other prisoners. They will have ways to manage this.

In a woman’s prison it doesn’t matter if the female predator identifies as a man or not. If they are a threat they will be a threat regardless and should be managed as such.

Likewise in male prisons there will likely be predatory prisoners who could easily overpower at least some of the fellow inmates.

Prisons should have ways to manage these situations – though as evidenced by the disproportionate number of sexual assaults committed in womens prisons by transwomen, they are not always successful.

They tend not to put sex offenders in those, though

I was unaware you were placing Semenya in the role of a sex offender.

Why do you suppose that might be? I thought women are women and men were men, end of story?

Sex is binary and humans are unable to change sex. That prisons have, for whatever reason, transgender wings doesn’t change this. The UK transwomens wing was set up to protect female prisoners from assault by transwomen.

Do these wings separate out trans men and trans women? I tried to look it up but I couldn’t find a single example of a transgender prison wing, which countries do this?

The one in the UK separates transwomen from the female prison population for the safety of the women.

HMP Downview, The first prison with a wing dedicated to Transgender inmates

Can you please cite this?

Apologies, I thought I had.

https://transequality.org/issues/police-jails-prisons

I’ll reply to the rest later unless someone else does first, I need to go eat something.

one group oppressing or exploiting another group.

Sure.

So if for the sake of argument we accept that a ‘man’ (by whatever definition you choose) in a space intended for women presents a potential risk to those women, then a ‘woman’ in a space intended for men is surely at a massively greater potential risk. What’s worse, a possible sex pest in a roomful of women, or a woman in a roomful of possible sex pests?

This is where it all falls down, you can’t have it both ways. For all that Markie’s argument is stone cold bonkers in the nut, credit where it’s due he is at least consistent.

So if for the sake of argument we accept that a ‘man’ (by whatever definition you choose) in a space intended for women presents a potential risk to those women, then a ‘woman’ in a space intended for men is surely at a massively greater potential risk. What’s worse, a possible sex pest in a roomful of women, or a woman in a roomful of possible sex pests?

This is where it all falls down, you can’t have it both ways. For all that Markie’s argument is stone cold bonkers in the nut, credit where it’s due he is at least consistent.

I’m saying that you not only can have it both ways, but that there are likley to be many cases where it should be so. Trans women should not be in the women’s prison estate, and trans men should not be on the men’s prison estate. Both situations are unsafe.

It’s a consistent position becuase I’m viewing it from the perspective of the male oppression of female people, not an idealised principle that people should always and symetrically be grouped according to sex. It depends on the situation, as the Equality Act recognises.

@BruceWee

Better to reply here, I think.

This is the direction your own particular brand of ‘feminism’ is leading. Women are going to be challenged (mostly by men) in bathrooms, in changing rooms, in shelters, and on the sports field for the crime of not conforming to a definition of feminine largely created by men.

I agree with your premise that women being challenged in women’s spaces is a bad thing. Where I disagree with you is your solution – removing anything and everything women have for themselves, just to prevent such a challenge from ever occuring. I don’t actually have a solution, but I don’t need one in order to know that throwing away all safeguarding for not being perfect in all situations is a laughably daft thing to propose.