My serious answer is that I think powered bikers will naturally ride together rather than with the cyclists just because their ride will be different. I sometimes see a cyclist accompanying a horse rider or a runner but it is not what I would call the norm. If I was on an ebike would I want to hang around for ten minutes at the top of every hill? Only until there were enough ebikers around that we could bugger off on our own ride.

Cannock is overrun with them

Is it? Ive only ever seen two which rode underneath me when I was up on the Go Ape kiddy bit. As a high horse local I don’t ride the tourist trails though…

The big problem with e-bikes from a user point of view at least is they totally miss the key benefits of cycling – the endorphins, the dopamine, the calorie-burning and also the mechanical simplicity and freedom from dependence on technology that’s too complex for you to fix when it goes wrong – especially if you’re miles from home…

If you want to drive then drive, if you want to ride a bike then ride a bike. At least e-bikes reduce traffic congestion, carbon monoxide and noise pollution, but with none of the sheer joy of riding a bike…

I think e-bike riders should stick to group rides with other e-bike riders.*

*I reserve the right to change my mind about that in about 10 years time.

Brilliant. As a 47 year old I agree with ‘rhayter’ 🙂

why clearly de-restricted? it is possible to pedal a bike at that speed without a motor, or was it obvious because it was uphill and he wasn’t trying?

he wasn’t pedaling!

She would have had to have given up otherwise due to a medical condition…
I would be happy to see someone along for a ride in these circumstances

See this doesn’t sit well with me, not the eBiking bit, but you* deciding when it is an isn’t acceptable to use them in your company.

Would you be happy if someone with a genuine medical need joined you but didn’t want to tell you (or didn’t say) what the need was? How are is that situation any different to them simply deciding to use an eBike other than in your perception and judgement of them?

Excluding someone from a sociable group ride just because they are riding an eBike doesn’t sound like a very nice thing to do.

Same with the whole shared effort thing, is it a pre-requisite of riding with you that other members of the group must suffer equally, or put in the same effort?

*not you, you, but a theoretical someone in a group.[/quote]
Good post. How is it different from saying that you wouldn’t go for a walk in a group with somebody in a wheelchair, that they should only go out with other people in wheelchairs?

brooess – Member

The big problem with e-bikes from a user point of view at least is they totally miss the key benefits of cycling – the endorphins, the dopamine, the calorie-burning and also the mechanical simplicity and freedom from dependence on technology that’s too complex for you to fix when it goes wrong – especially if you’re miles from home…

And if these things are most important to you, continue to not buy an e-bike. Just, realise that people who’re buying them despite that aren’t morons, they have their reasons.

he wasn’t pedaling!

then not a eBike in the pedal-assist sense? sounds like an electric scooter which is a different beast altogether.

The big problem with e-bikes from a user point of view at least is they totally miss the key benefits of cycling – the endorphins, the dopamine, the calorie-burning and also the mechanical simplicity and freedom from dependence on technology that’s too complex for you to fix when it goes wrong – especially if you’re miles from home…

If you want to drive then drive, if you want to ride a bike then ride a bike. At least e-bikes reduce traffic congestion, carbon monoxide and noise pollution, but with none of the sheer joy of riding a bike…
Brooess, have you ridden an e-bike? Going up hill still requires physical effort even with ‘max assistance’ chosen i.e. it generates endorphins/dopamine/burns calories. Obviously how much work it is depends on the rider’s level of health and fitness. Not fair to say it doesn’t have any of the joy of riding a bike.
Fair point on the mechanical simplicity but there are degrees of reliability on any mechanical system, normal bike or e-bike.

Many people seem to think of e-bikes as essentially mopeds…they’re really not.

I spied someone ahead of me on a climb recently and from the distance it looked like a BSO with a normally clothed chap riding it.

As is customary I set about catching it and passing while trying to apear nonchelant and look like I wasn’t trying but I was gaining a lot slower than I expected. When I got closer I could clearly see the battery which explained my lack of progress. When I finally caught up I made a light hearted comment along the lines of “using a e-bike being cheating”.

Turns out the bloke was on the waiting list for a heart transplant but just loved being out on his bike so this was the best solution. 😳

Turns out the bloke was on the waiting list for a heart transplant but just loved being out on his bike so this was the best solution

And that Shirley, is as complicated as it needs to be IMHO.

Can’t hack sharing space with e-bikes… deal with it or start pushing people off mobility scooters too as clearly they should be walking, right ?

Not sure why people have a problem with e bikes? Has it got something to do with not wanting to be overtaken?

Note: I have no interest in buying a e bike, but wouldn’t rule it out in many years time.

My dad is 81 years old and has cycled all his life, up until suffering a ruptured aorta anurysm last year (5% chance of survival, but he’s still here!).

He’s trying to get going again but is finding it difficult – he’s an old roadie at heart and is resisting an e-bike but I think it’s the perfect solution – I’m going to investigate one of these front hub motors to see if we could retrofit it to one of his road bikes…….I wouldn’t hesitate to get one in his situation but he needs a bit of time to think about it I think…… 😀

All those who go onto leader boards simply to ‘win’ a segment. I’m convinced most are upto something so it’ll be an arms race who can cheat even more…then the proper strava users can use it for what is intended for IMO.

Who are these mythical Strava cheaters? I’ve never seen one. The only people who seem to think Strava is full of cheaters are the people nowhere near the top of any leaderboards 😕

I predict this topic will be the new ‘wheelsize’ debate, for the next 4 years approximately. At which point it will be replaced by “26 inch or 25.32 wheels for my next bike?” and “is this 13 speed transmission compatible with my 168mm hubs?”.

They’re outside enjoying themselves, live and let live. WGAS if they’re not working as hard, unless they’re gloating about it, in which case they’re ****, and the fact their bike is powered is an irrelevance, and you should ensure the route accidentally goes further than the range of their battery, with a testing hike-a-bike bit at the furthest point.

It shouldn’t bother you. Get on with enjoying YOURSELF for the reasons you got into the sport, be that getting fitter, enjoy the outdoors, sending it, chatting to your mates.

So a random or a friend has chosen to get to the top of the hill with a little help from a motor. It’s their choice, be it out of pure laziness or a medical reason, it matters not.

Now, if they start running over baby robins or gloating that they beat you to the top of a climb, well now you can kick them in the snatch.

tricky one innit.
medical condition: brilliant let’s help keep people riding who otherwise wouldn’t be.
Lazy bugger: well I’m kinda averse to that, not convinced ebikes would be a gateway to “proper” cycling. Could be wrong tho.
Souped up >15mph/none pedal assist: no thankyou, stay off the trails please.
But with the exception of the souped up, effectively e-motorbikes, which is a big can of worms, the others aren’t any of my business anyway.

if they’ve got one because they’re a lazy b-tard then they deserve to get kicked into a bush.

I dont think it’s tricky really, just a lot of misinformation and unnecessary judgement, you managed to break it down to just 3 points

1. medical condition = OK

2. lazy = OKish in your eyes, where as I’d say this is a non-issue too, lazy is fine, plenty of people go for rides and don’t try all that hard already, do you mind if people don’t pedal as hard as they could and spin up a climb instead of giving it their all? after all they’re just being lazy 😉 and there’s always the chance that it does get more people riding

3. souped up non-pedal electric scooters = not OK, but also != eBike in the pedal assisted legal sense, so another thing entirely and also not that common.

point 1 everyone seems to agree on, point 2 is just being picky about how much effort other are people putting in, which isn’t really anyone else’s business, 3 is a different topic/issue, so overall not that tricky at all 😀

My gut instinct is not to like e-bikes, to sneer at them a bit, and discount their riders as “not getting it”. To me it fundamentally changes what mountain biking is about… but I do know that they’re a tool for people to get out and do more than they might have been able to do otherwise and generally they’re something to have fun on. The big problem I have is that they blur the line between human and motor powered in a way that most people won’t understand. The impact that their increased use might have on the access debate may be disastrous for mountain bike access (deliberately doom-mongering there).

I can take an powered off-road wheelchair and drive it wherever I like – footpaths, bridleways, CROW access land, but only if I’m actually disabled, and it can’t go over 4mph. I know that the definitions of e-bikes are governed by law, but if we see increasing number of de-restricted machines being used off-road we are bound to see a backlash from other users. They will see powered vehicles going somewhere they don’t think they should be, and we may all be lumped with that group if we’re not careful.

The access concerns and comments about de-restricted bikes are valid, but they are discussions/concerns about potential misuse.

It seems that a lot of people are building their opinions on worst case scenarios and worrying about misuse, and allowing that to drive their opinions and cast a shadow over legitimate use.

I’m not saying that they’re things to be ignored, but it’s the same as the RLJ argument that we get from motorists, being lumped in with the same crowd based on the (already) illegal and bad activities of the few.

By all means address misuse, both de-restriction and general antisocial use of shared access (by riders I might add, regardless of bike type), but it shouldn’t cause negative opinion of perfectly legit use.

The problem seems to be that a lot of people do not see “because I want to” as a valid and legit reason to ride one, in fact it’s the whole requiremnt to have a ‘reason’ and justify them that’s peculiar in this regard.

You may not want to ride one, in the same way you might not want to ride a fat bike, or a 29er, but that doesn’t mean other people should have to explain themselves or pass your personal ‘is he allowed to ride an eBike’ test to join you on the trails.

*my disclaimer from other threads repeated here:

I do not own an eBike
I do not sell eBikes
I am not involved with any company that does market or sell eBikes
I am not likely for the foreseeable future to want to own an eBike myself
I have ridden one before out of curiosity
If any eBike riders want to join me for a ride they’ll be as welcome as anyone else, whatever their ‘reason’

i don’t think i’d appreciate someone on a ebike whirring past me on the climbs.

You should ask yourself why you would even give a shit? Even if you are worried about your ego, they are on an ebike so it clearly doesn’t count as a defeat.

Very much considering one of those Dillinger kits, why?

Easier to stay in heart rate zone

The ‘walking’ speed mode may make techy uphill sections fun. Maybe works on the down too, like engine braking?

A lot of riders find the health gains to be substantial, extends the range one may normally cycle.

Opens up a lot of areas normally too hilly for the average joe…I suspect that a lot of the roads have been designed to discourage joe average from taking his/ her bike on the road in favour of cars, I.e. The kind of gradients used and the lack of room to push a bike if you find a road too steep.

If it gets people off the sofa and into the countryside, then all power to them, no matter.

If I was riding with someone on one, in a group ride, I don’t think it would affect my enjoyment or colour my opinion of them. Different strokes etc…

Tbh I dont care. It gets people out doors

but also != eBike in the pedal assisted legal sense

I know leccy motorbikes are completely different legally but pretty much everytime e-bikes are mentioned someone pops up with “oh there’s this add on/hack where it’ll do X” so there does seem to be a grey area (how much of an issue it is, how many people actually hack their ebikes I dunno, could be a possibility that never really happens)

I see ebikes as a way of getting more downhill for less effort pedalling uphill. A kind of personal uplift.

I hate pedalling uphill, i derive no emjoyment from it , but realise its a necessary evil to get at the downhills.

I think the current crop of ebikes are not quite there yet and are too expensive,but once the tech improves and comes down in price i can see a lot of people getting one,me included.

ive no problem with them as long as he take a pull at the front now and then. could always do a route that was 5miles over the range of the battery and wathc him suffer the last bit. :-0

I know leccy motorbikes are completely different legally but pretty much everytime e-bikes are mentioned someone pops up with “oh there’s this add on/hack where it’ll do X”

You’re still merging the two things there though. The hacks and mods I’m aware of* allow you to circumvent the maximum speed assist restriction, but not the requirement to pedal. so you have an eBike that no longer cuts out the assist at 15/16mph, but doesn’t turn it into a twist-to-go style scooter which is a different thing not just legally but in use as well. This kind of conflating and confusing is part of the problem I think.

so there does seem to be a grey area (how much of an issue it is, how many people actually hack their ebikes I dunno, could be a possibility that never really happens)

It’s not that grey, if you remove the restrictions** it no longer conforms to the regs and is therefore no longer road legal, and also changes it’s definition in law and therefore the access rights for the vehicle type apply.

The fact that the hacks and mods are freely available is another matter, and so far as I know nobody has been taken to task for selling/peforming the mods.

This may change (availability and consequences) as eBike use grows, but then again it might remain a fringe issue as the target market are unlikely to be the kind of people who will willingly make the mods, it’s still in the experimentation stages at the moment I think.

* I’m not aware of everything 🙂
** I’m looking for refs now but I think there’s 2 parts, one about maximum power of the motor and also about the speed. There’s also differences legally in terms of access rights I think depending on the specs and type/how the motor drives

EDIT – I/we should probably stop referring to them simply as eBikes and be clear about whether we are talking about Pedelecs (assisted pedalling) or E-Bikes (power on demand).

Interesting thread

Do the current crop of pedal assist 15mph max e-bikes have the ability to spin the rear and cause extra trail damage if maxed out from zero? or are they relatively Soft Starting .. ?

I’m thinking that this would be the only thing that would irritate me about their mis-use

Do the current crop of pedal assist 15mph max e-bikes have the ability to spin the rear and cause extra trail damage if maxed out from zero? or are they relatively Soft Starting ..

Not really no, not much more than a human anyway, we did this in the previous thread a bit.

Maximum power of motor is 250W

On dry trails this isn’t normally enough assist to allow breakaway/spin where a sufficiently stronger rider couldn’t already spin a wheel if they tried(if that makes sense), the assist is pretty linear so they don’t just give full power the moment you touch the pedals so you haev a level of control as to how much power you put down, just as if you had no assist.

On slippy or wet ground the limit becomes the traction of the tyres anyway and if a human could overcome that then it’s a bit of a non issue, as the assist is only there when pedalling you’re essentially in the same position as a human sat there pedalling and spinning anyway without moving, at which point you would normally topple over (or stop pedalling) whether assisted or not.

In the real world skidding and bad braking have a bigger impact than drive.

All of the above is also based on a normal fit, reasonably powerful biker, suddenly jumping on a Pedelec, but as is evidecned on this thread and on the trails, the typical user of one of these bikes is not a fit, powerful biker, it’s more normally an older, infirm, tired, restricted strength (or lazy 😉 ) rider where the overall total power is not much different to a fit strong rider without assist.

If we are talking twist-to-go bikes then I have no idea as I’ve never ridden one, althgouh you need to remember, they are not actually that common, nor are they classed the same legally so don;’t have the same access rights either, so we’re back to misuse arguments if they’re ripping up your local trails.

Thanks, thats my one potential irritation sketched right there.

I’ve ridden two E-bikes. One was assist to 16mph the other 28mph. The acceleration from stop was impressive and the 28mph one (one was KTM the other Hai bike, can’t remember which way round) would be awesome on a commute.

IMO Brilliant for commuting and getting people out and about who otherwise might not be able to. However if someone turned up to a group ride who was otherwise able I would take the mick mercilessly. Don’t be soft lad/lasses!!

Hmmmm, Initial reaction is to hate them, but on more thought, I think it can’t hurt.

I’ll reserve final judgement until I ride one, if I ever do, to see just how much of your riding it does for you.

I can see an e-downhill bike being popular, and others being good for the injured, ill or lazy, but for me, I couldn’t accept any of them as a proper bicycle. A proper bicycle is human powered, and has a human engine only.

Not saying it isn’t useful or acceptable, but it isn’t a proper bicycle in my book.

On slippy or wet ground the limit becomes the traction of the tyres anyway and if a human could overcome that then it’s a bit of a non issue, as the assist is only there when pedalling you’re essentially in the same position as a human sat there pedalling and spinning anyway without moving, at which point you would normally topple over (or stop pedalling) whether assisted or not.

Good point, how do you tackle slippery climbs on it? Surely it must be much harder to feed in power to back wheel and feel how much grip you have?

Need an e bike due to medical condition/disability fine when you are fit/able bodied but just lazy, wrong imo

What’s the difference between tho and uplift?

Long term E-bikes will go their own way, with different power classes

In the SE of England Moto-X is virtually dead due to the 4-stroke thump and noise adverse nimbys. So being able to hack round a field again (in almost silence) is going to be great.

Most are not going to be turning up at trail centers since they won’t need the gravity for speed. but there a huge cross over in skillz..

Still blows my mind that a Moto-X bike is cheaper new than a Full-Sus MTB !!!

They pedal ride uphill and one sits in a bus?

Good point, how do you tackle slippery climbs on it? Surely it must be much harder to feed in power to back wheel and feel how much grip you have?

The same way you do normally really, you just adjust your input, you get used to ‘feeling’ it very quickly.

Go and have a go on one if you get a chance, a lot of the unknowns like this are simply because a lot of people haven’t had a go on one and are trying to thinksplain them rather than trying first hand.

Need an e bike due to medical condition/disability fine when you are fit/able bodied but just lazy, wrong imo

less lazy than staying at home on the sofa though eh?

They pedal ride uphill and one sits in a bus?

If it’s a Pedelec (as most are) then they are still pedalling up hill, certainly putting in more effort than the bus uplifters.

Also they handle like a bag of shite so not sure there will be mass appeal if people like to go even half quick down hill/in technical bits. Try putting a 5-8kg dumbbell on your down tube and see how well your bike rides.