Hi all, just keen to get some thoughts on a wheel build situation.

I’ve just had some wheels built (woo!) at LBS. Went to pick them up and they’ve been built with plain gauge spokes, not the double butted ones I’d requested (and which are in the order docket).

Shop being absolutely reasonable, say either they will rebuild with db spokes or I can have the wheels and not pay for any spokes.

How do I feel (cause it’s all about me! 🙄 )? The perfect situation would have been that the wheels had been built with db spokes in the first place, I pay the agreed price and we’re done. Impossible. Will having plain gauge spokes make a difference to my riding? I wouldn’t have thought so! But still, there’s a part of me that would like them remade with double butted, just because that’s what I wanted, expected and ordered. And a part that thinks it’s ridiculous to have them remade for not much benefit.

Argh. And yes, first world and all that.

Thanks!

So they’re offering to do as you asked, and you still want to ask a bunch of people that you don’t know what to do?.

Really?.

What’s the price saving?

Are you likely to trash the rim?

Get them rebuilt, I’d just see ‘not quite what I wanted’ every time I looked at them.

If they’re for a set of lightweight wheels I’d get them re-built as it would bug the hell out of me.

If they’re a set of hardcore wheels I’d probably take the discount.

@nobeer Well, since you put it that way, yes 😳

Price saving not much. And I think I’d be the same wwas.

The perfect situation would have been that the wheels had been built with db spokes in the first place, I pay the agreed price and we’re done. Impossible.

They’re offering something which is absolutely identical. What’s the issue?

Have you broken spokes through fatigue alone on well-built wheels in the past? Would you notice if someone added less than one gram to each spoke on your wheel? Unless you can genuinely answer yes to at least one of those questions then to be honest plain gauge will be just fine and you can get some beer money, but at the end of the day if it’s going to niggle you (and I can totally relate to that) then just come back later and pick up the wheels exactly as you wanted.

get them rebuilt, as per wwaswas.

Why did you spec doubled butted originally?

It’s often argued that DB last longer as the stresses focus on stretching the middle of the spoke rather than the bends, where breaks can occur.

Double butted spokes are stronger than plain gauge spokes, they will last longer and the wheels (assuming properly built) will stay truer.
If you had budgeted for db spokes in the first place then I would absolutely have them rebuilt as you specced. It’s not something you’ll notice on the first ride but plain gauge spokes will make themselves known over time, not in a good way…

They’re not stronger, at least not in terms of tensile strength. (You don’t start using Revolutions if you’re snapping Champions landing jumps.) The cold-worked material in the middle section is a bit stronger, assuming the same starting material, but there’s less of it. Their main benefit is to reduce stress near the ends to increase fatigue life.

And it’s not accurate to say that plain gauge spokes “will” make themselves known. They may. But I would hazard a guess that 99% of wheels won’t see the fatigue cycles that will trouble a PG spoke.

Don’t get me wrong, DBs are often better (though even then you’ll find some builders preferring PGs on rear drive sides). It’s just that PGs are perfectly adequate in many cases.

If I bought a computer with a 2TB drive and it arrived with 1TB and the offer of £50 or returning it for the 2TB disk to be fitted, the 2TB disk would be “better” but if I only ever used it for saving a bunch of Word documents I’d have turned down £50 for no benefit.

Do you think you’ll really notice the difference?

I’ve got/had wheels with both PG and DB spokes and TBH I would struggle to really tell any difference in the ride, I’m just not that sensitive, so what’s the weight difference? maybe 30g per wheel?

so the cost saving is what ~£20? and you can ride them today rather than in a few days following the rebuild…

I’d probably take the Free PG spokes and crack on…

cookeaa – Member

Do you think you’ll really notice the difference?

LOL, no one would upgrade hardly anything if they actually applied logic to it.

Do you think you’ll really notice the difference?

LOL, no one would upgrade hardly anything if they actually applied logic to it.

In a bunker somewhere, the cycling marketing-industrial complex orders a hit on cookeaa and cynical 🙂

Surely plain gague spokes, being thicker, will stretch less when there’s load on the rim? And if you require more force to reach the elastic limit of the spoke or rim, you are less likely to put a buckle in the wheel with an impact?

Can anyone disprove this theory?

Surely plain gague spokes, being thicker, will stretch less when there’s load on the rim? And if you require more force to reach the elastic limit of the spoke or rim, you are less likely to put a buckle in the wheel with an impact?

You are quite right and that’s the exact problem.. A spoked wheels works precisecly because of the spokes ability to bear the repeated increase and derease in tension as it is weighted and unweighted. DB spokes work better precisely because they are more elastic in the middle and can therefore better withstand the tension variations within a wheel during use. A plain guage spoke does not have that ‘stretch’ section in the middle and is therefore more likely to simply break at a weak point (usually the elbow) after a period of time due to fatigue failure.
There is a reason that wheels on BSO specials are all plain guage and high end wheels are all DB, and it’s not purely because of weight.
A plain guage spoked wheel will be stiffer than a DB wheel which is why you sometimes see or hear of DH’ers using plain guage spokes, but they aren’t worried about fatigue life and the chances of the spokes outliving the (short and painful) life of a DH wheel are much smaller..

They’re offering something which is absolutely identical. What’s the issue?

No free ride in a time machine.

It’s probably worth bearing in mind the cost to the shop. They messed up and to set you right, they either have to debuild / rebuild a wheel and (if they are legit), bin the plain gauge spokes OR they build an entirely new wheel and hope they can flog the old weirdly-specced wheel.

If you accepted their offer of the price of spokes that would be a massive win for them. I wouldn’t take a wheel without DB spokes because I’m on nobber who thinks they would actually notice the difference.

Did you notice the spokes or did they fess up when you arrived? Been cynical, if the former, I’d guess they didn’t have the DB’s and thought they might get away with it!

I’ve always ordered double butted, but I suppose its how fussy you are over the spec that will determine if it bugs you in the future, or you forget about it next week 🙂

I believe the db spokes will give better load transfer through adjacent spokes, so should be worth having for a more tolerant wheel. Offer to go halves on the rebuild, if it’s a shop you want to support.

They’re not stronger, at least not in terms of tensile strength.

Very true. But that’s not the whole story. Due to having a bit of stretch before they snap, they enable a load or shock to be dissipated move evenly through more spokes, and so make the wheel more resilient and hopefully longer lasting. There’s only one reason to use PG spokes in a decent wheel and that’s cost. There’s no way I’d use anything else. If you want more strength, use more spokes, not thicker ones.
From a wheelbuilding point of view it’s easier to get a to get a perfectly true wheel with DB spokes too, PG are a bit of a pest to build….
(I’m currently building a batch of 10 PG spoked rears. Bluddy hate the things, you get used to it though)

To answer the OP, I’d just tell them to crack on and rebuild it as asked for. That’s a proper howler of a mistake, I’d batter myself to death with a pedal spanner if I did that! 😉

The change in stiffness (and therefore any fatigue benefits) will be really **** minimal. Obviously DB is a better product, so might be made with a better quality of material, so that might make them last longer (though I’d imagine from the same manufacturer the same sort of quality standards would apply).
So basically you won’t get any measurable fatigue benefit, and as for power transfer being better whilst the lower stiffness of the middle of the spoke magically flexes to allow lower forces to pass through the thread and bend…
The benefit really comes from the fact you can run something lighter as it’s thinner in the middle, whilst not losing any strength at the elbow or thread area. And they’re nicer cos you know they’re better.
I always think if you’re getting a nice set of wheels the extra cost of DB spokes is pretty negligible, so go for them. But let’s not pretend they’re made of magic fairy dust or that they do anything apart from being a bit lighter.

They’re not stronger, at least not in terms of tensile strength.

You can easily hang your entire bodyweight from one spoke – tensile strength isn’t the issue with spokes, it’s fatigue life. Fatigue life is improved if the middle is a bit springy, so the elbow doesn’t flex so much.

I use lots of PG spokes, but that’s just ‘cos you can’t get DB spokes in the silly short lengths I need.

Sapim actually list the DB Race spoke as stronger than the PG Leader spoke too…

PG
Strength on middle section: 1080 – 1180 N/mm2
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/basic/leader

DB
Strength on middle section: 1300 N/mm2
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/race

I use lots of PG spokes, but that’s just ‘cos you can’t get DB spokes in the silly short lengths I need.

Agreed, that’s a pain in the ass sometimes.

Sapim actually list the DB Race spoke as stronger than the PG Leader spoke too…

That’s because they’re rotary swaged, basically cold forged, which increases the strength of steel.

PG
Strength on middle section: 1080 – 1180 N/mm2
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/basic/leader

DB
Strength on middle section: 1300 N/mm2
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/race

Yep but a PG spoke is has more sectional area.

And guess what:

PG x-sectional area 12.57mm^2

12.57 x 1080 = 13,575.6N UTS

DB x-sectional area 10.18mm^2

10.18 x 1300 = 13,234N UTS

So what sapim are really telling you is that their Leader and Race spokes have as near as damn it the same tensile strength…

Of course the real question is, what is young’s modulus for that 1300N/mm^2 material VS that of the 1080N/mm^2?
For which we’d need some idea of elongation at break/yield, that’s what would really quantify any claims over the elastic performance as part of the wheel…

Whit??? You ordered a new set of wheels and the shop built them with the wrong spokes and have offered to rebuild them…and you are posting on here asking what to do???

Give yourself a good shake, get the shop to rebuild the wheels and go ride your bike!

They have offered to rebuild as they have made the mistake, so why are you even asking???

Edit: Yup, now read it all and I’m not…

I haven’t read any of the other responses and I’m expecting to not be the first with this reaction…

But that’s not the whole story. [They] make the wheel more resilient and hopefully longer lasting.

I thought that was essentially what I said 😉

Sapim actually list the DB Race spoke as stronger than the PG Leader spoke too…

The material is stronger because it’s been cold worked. The spoke is weaker because it’s thinner. I think I said that too 😉

Not only that, but they make the wheels more resilient and hopefully longer lasting 😉

They’re certainly making this thread last longer 😉

but they make the wheels more resilient and hopefully longer lasting

They do? (I assume you mean DB) Where’s this proven?

The only information provided is on material strength, not strain performance…

PG x-sectional area 12.57mm^2

DB x-sectional area 10.18mm^2That’s some pretty chunky spokes. 8)

Stuff resilience and modulus – can I get black spokes? 😉

They do? (I assume you mean DB) Where’s this proven?

It’s just “known” 😉

Actually, it might just be that DB spokes are used in better-made wheels than PG spokes on average, so the wheel will last longer anyway…

They’re certainly making this thread last longer

I’d actually pay for that ride in a time machine now.

They do? (I assume you mean DB) Where’s this proven?

Actually, it might just be that DB spokes are used in better-made wheels than PG spokes on average, so the wheel will last longer anyway…

Well, the theory is sound. The question is how much of a difference it makes in reality: will a DB build last for 100% more cycles than a PG wheel, or 0.0001% more? I’m sure someone must have done some FEA on it at some point 🙂

Thanks all.

These will be the first non second hand wheels I’ve ever had, let alone the first wheels I’ve ever specced and had built, to go on the first non second hand bike I’ve ever had.

What I’d like is for the wheels to be rebuilt, but I wasn’t sure if that was reasonable given that I in all likelihood won’t notice any difference ever and it’s a cost to the shop (a shop we like).

I noticed that the spokes weren’t double butted when I went to pick the up. The guy there (not someone I’d seen before) tried to tell me that double butted meant the spokes were the same diameter throughout. I disagreed. He then said that he just built what he’d been told to build. We found the work order which specified double butted and then they made the offer. I’ll head in today to ask for the rebuild.

I’d be more concerned about the guy who built your wheel having no **** clue what he was actually doing. Check if the spokes are glued in with no nipples…