If the government passed a law to say that, at the next election, all votes for parties other than Labour were counted as votes for Labour

(and believe me, with the current state of the House of Commons, this is not completely out of the question)

would you be willing to die for the right to vote for the Tories?

dont know.

I think the test for being “willing to die” is difficult to pass until death becomes a real possibility.

hmmm. daddy or chips?

OK Stoner

“willing to die” means

taking part in a perfectly legal street demo which the police and other paramilitary security organisations then decide to deal with under various bits of “anti-terrorism” legislation

and if you think that’s an exaggeration, Google “Blair Peach” or just look at what happened to civil rights demonstrators in Northern Ireland/the North of Ireland during the troubles

doesnt sound very deadly when you put it that way, so yes, I would protest at the lack of a free vote.

Hi Stoner

So your name is Blair Peach and I am a police officer on riot patrol and I now smash your skull in with my baton

Or you are a NI/NoI citizen at a civil rights demo and I take both your eyes out with a baton round

Not very deadly?

do you really think that’s likely?

The act of attending a protest where some police officers may act like a bunch of murderous **** isnt the same as being willing to die.

I was expecting your take to be more about say some of the middle east countries or African nations where dissent is far more likely to result in death.

LOL – I cannot believe that an STW member with the name WinstonSmith is sceptical about the ability of the state to control our lives. LOL LOL

nations where dissent is far more likely to result in death.

Like NI/NoI on Bloody Sunday?

LOL – I cannot believe that an STW member with the name WinstonSmith is sceptical about the ability of the state to control our lives. LOL LOL

i am aware of the possible irony. have you read the book though? my fave bit is the treatise on the futility of revolutions. mr smith is an gullible idiot who sees but doesn’t really understand.

the state has a modicum of control over our lives, but i really don’t think it has the will to attempt total control in a n korea stylee. most people in the uk are apathetic enough that there’s not any need to control us

why does nothing much happen at the majority of uk demonstrations then?

bloody sunday is not a good comparison – i think that the security services in the early 70’s had an attitude (reasonably prevalent in the uk at the time)that the micks were worth less, needed to be controlled and were fair game

i think a lot more of the security services would think more about pulling the trigger on what they view as proper uk citizens. *ponders what might happen today at a moslem riot tho*

Hi Winston

Yes I have read the book – I have had the pleasure of teaching it to A-level students

Orwell portrays Winston Smith not as a “gullible idiot”, but as an ordinary citizen, dominated by an all-powerful state apparatus, but driven by a sense that things could be better

Orwell’s point is that Winston’s perfectly reasonable, ordinary aspirations (keeping a diary, having sex with someone you love, doing an honest day’s work, smoking a decent cigarette) are subversive to the controlling state apparatus…..

I’m bored with giving this Politics 101 class

Go read the book yourself

i would die rather than vote tory. face it, a bunch of deadbeat losers so utterly **** useless that, in spite of the complete **** mess Blair and Brown have been making of things are still completely and utterly incapable of mounting any kind of opposition. i mean, seriously, if i was looking at trying to get into power, and really wanted an easy time of it, i’d look at calamity broon and think all my birthdays were happening at once. then again if it was david “where’s my bike, i left it here” cameron, it wold be all my birthdays and christmasses

no need to try to be snug eldridge because you know how to follow the national curriculum. i’m sorry my interpretation differs from yours. when i first read the book it seemed patently obvious that he realised how his world worked but was unable to spot that he was being set up for his eventual fall at the hands of the system

aware, yet still naive and powerless

the lecture he gets near the end is interesting too – revolutions are carried out by the middle classes ‘on behalf of’ the poor. sadly they just replace the ruling elite and do nothing for the poor

Yes. Undoubtedly. If my country was going down that road I would make life very difficult for them. Surely an administration like that prays on those who choose not to act. However I’m relatively young and single, if I had a family like most of you old ****’s (please don’t ban me again – I didn’t even swear!) I won’t act very differently.

This wouldn’t be a choice between Labour or Tory. It would be a choice between dictatorship and democracy. I doubt any current politician would get voted in/not killed if they supported such a notion.

I’m bored with giving this Politics 101 class

Go read the book yourself

Did you say you were a teacher? How unusually patronising of you…where actually is the problem with what winstonsmith is saying? Tis nothing other than a slight disagreement over interpretation and that’s how you respond? I hope your students have had better.

And, again, agree with winstonsmith over Bloody Sunday – it’s wasn’t about the “state” controlling the “masses”. It was about one part of the community exercising an almost apartheid regime over the other side, and when that other side didn’t quite fancy it anymore, using the collusion of a corrupt police force and a confused army to help keep the system working for them.