The other half runs a clinic from home (acupuncture, botox etc).
Most of the time it’s fine.

A few months ago 2 clients came, had over a grand’s worth of treatment, then claimed to have payment in the car and did a runner…
They also gave fake names and addresses..but I managed to find out their details/addresses/real names.

Reported to the police, who ‘started’ to take matters on, but we just heard back that they (sussex police) feel it’s NOT theft/fraud, but a civil matter.
I’m persuing via small claims, but I also want the coppers involved for the crime that’s committed!

This is bonkers in my eyes – it’s got ‘intent to defraud’ written all over it.
It’s just that I found them out, and now the police don’t seem too interested as the lady said she’s ‘try to pay back’ (she hasn’t).

I mean, if I walked into a jewellery shop, ran off with some Omega watches, then IF I got caught, I said “OK, fair cop, I’ll pay it back’ the police would be all over me!!

WHo’s shoes should I wee in??

DrP

Everyones!*

.
.
* (except Mrs P.) Sorry not helpful, but that’s a rubbish situation

Hi
I agree with you. The Police should be involved and you should look to escalate it through their complaints procedure.
At the end of the day they came to your wife, had services provided and left without paying. Criminal not Civil!
No different in my eyes to pulling onto a filling station, filling my car then driving off without paying.
I’m not a lawyer though

Presumably though they will claim that Mrs P didn’t provide the services or didn’t do them properly or whatever in order that it remains a civil offence.

I’d keep pushing the police – even potentially raise a complaint

https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints

That’s fraud, or one of it’s variants. There is clear evidence of dishonesty with the fake names and addresses. If they had gone to the car, come back in, and said ‘we’ve cocked up and left our money at home, we’ll sort it later’, given their real details, and then failed to ever pay, that would be a civil matter. Not the case here base on the account given.

Presumably though they will claim that Mrs P didn’t provide the services or didn’t do them properly or whatever in order that it remains a civil offence.

Possibly, but even then they should make their complaint known at the time, probably in writing, and ideally reach a compromise there and then. It’s not quite the same as nicking watches or petrol, although i see what people are saying, it’s more like going for a meal out, deciding it wasn’t up to scratch so leaving without paying, for which you’d rightly get done. Whereas if you spoke to the manager, explained why the meal was substandard and made an offer for what you thought it was worth there’s little for the police to be involved in.

As greatape said, false names just shows there was always an intent to do it.

obtaining goods or services by deception.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_Act_1978

Exactly – fake names and addresses on booking, leaving without paying, and refusing to pay up… = obtaining goods or services by deception.

Will escalate via the rozzers…

DrP

Yeah, fair point on the fake names. escalate/IPCC

Th cops will (I think) take the view that if you can sort it out yourself, that should be your first course of action, and they won’t really get involved.

Their budgets are tight, you know who they are and where they live,(the crims I mean, not the cops) and you can proceed accordingly, you can pursue through courts if needed, what exactly are the cops bringing to the party?

It’s shitty, and doesn’t feel great when you’ve been the victim of crime.

what exactly are the cops bringing to the party?

An increased likelihood of getting paid due to the threat of a criminal charge/conviction presumably…

Police are lazy and are only interested in an easy collar for small stuff. Make a complaint.

Some Police are lazy and are only interested in an easy collar for small stuff. Make a complaint.

kayla1 – Member

Police are lazy and are only interested in an easy collar for small stuff. Make a complaint.

I would have thought IPCC would/could nudge things in the right direction ….

Did the Police check whether the clients had “form”? This may be the case they need to get a prosecution. I don’t suppose you got a photo of the people?

Sussex police need all the nudging we can muster, even if you’re case doesn’t 100% need it, you’d be doing the rest of us a big favour.

First unless they’ve justified why they believe a crime hasn’t been committed I’d ask for a written explanation of the decision that’s been taken and who took it (e.g. were CPS consulted or did a police officer just have a scan through an email).

If they’re unable/unwilling to take things further then look at the Sussex Police complaints process and follow that to the letter.

Do everything in writing from now on.

Budgets might be tight but I’m sure DrP pays his astronomical rates on time and this should be treated the same as a burglary .theft is theft and they should be prosecuted for it .

Fixed 😉

Not an expert on this, but I’d be surprised at CPS turning this down, as it seems like it ought to be a fairly straightforward prosecution with decent evidence of “intent to deceive” – I doubt it got as far as them making a decision on it.

This is how they get crime figures down….nothing is a crime anymore.
I brought a phone on eBay back in 2005 ..I did the buy it now and to save cash I did a bank transfer…

Shortly after the seller was no longer a eBay user…..so I went to the police with all the emails and everything…..

“It’s a civil matter sir” WTF…..even my bank wasn’t interested because I athorised the transaction.

I mean my bank account to another…its traceable for the police init??

And there’s more……..3 weeks ago a crappy old heap of a car parked next to mine and scrapped and dented both doors and front wing on my 2 year old car……the driver left his car parked there for all to see……everything was captured on cctv , I took loads of photos…….got a police case number for insurance purposes…..then I got a letter from the police traffic division …saying its not in the public interest to pursue

So this fooker can go around crashing into other people’s cars

What do you have to do before it’s a crime….kill someone??….lol

what exactly are the cops bringing to the party?

Justice (not in a ‘ooh, DrP the vigilante‘ style justice, but in a ‘Hmm, these ladies seemed quite well versed in this manoeuvre, and on speaking to the policeman who TRIED to help and was shot down by his superior, seems to think that this is the only time they’ve been caught, hence I should do something to stop them‘ style justice.. )

It would be nice to get our money back, but it’s not going to make or break the business. However, if this had happened to my wife when initially setting it up, then it COULD have been enough to fold the business/bash morale.

I fear that some poor new startup outfit somewhere will fall foul of these wrinkle faced (curses…not any more..) hags in a few months time..

And yes, we got before/after mug shots, and it’s amazing how easy it is to find an AWFUL lot out about someone from just a phone number… (the only ‘real’ bit of information we had)

DrP

Their budgets are tight, you know who they are and where they live,(the crims I mean, not the cops) and you can proceed accordingly, you can pursue through courts if needed, what exactly are the cops bringing to the party?

Well. A crime has been committed.

That’s the sort of thing the police deal with general isn’t it ?

In fact, if you were to compile a list of the main reasons to even have a Police force, dealing with crime would be top of the list.

Well. A crime has been committed.

That’s the sort of thing the police deal with general isn’t it ?

You should live oop north. They put their job description down the side of their cars, to avoid any confusion….

On the assumption the facts are as you say, this is one of the most worrying examples of police derogation off responsibility I have heard of. This sort of thing is exactly what s3 (making off without payment) of the Theft Act 1978 was brought in to cover. The fact pattern could be a law school criminal law exam question it’s so obviously criminal.

well, yes a crime has been committed…but, what d’you want?

your money back, the crims punished? Take them to court…What’s stopping you?

You and your wife have my sympathies. I am self-employed and did a lot of work for a client in April this year. She accepted the quote, paid the deposit, then told me at the end she could not afford to pay the rest as she hadn’t made enough money from advertising in the rag she was publishing to pay my fees (and those of the graphic designer she engaged). She also reneged on a three month contract and shrugged and told me to “take her to court”.

Obviously unlike with your situation there was no concrete proof that she never intended to pay. The only evidence I have was from Facebook where she put pictures up of her two year-old’s very expensive birthday party and presents, which contradicted her assertion that she had no money, but no proof she paid for it all, might have been grandparents or something.

It was a considerable amount of money and it nearly did fold my business as I had only just started. If I hadn’t been working part time to pay my bills back then I would have been in a right mess.

Small claims court going through but I don’t hold much hope, especially if she closes down her limited company to avoid paying, which I expect she will do if she thinks she will lose.

well, yes a crime has been committed…but, what d’you want?

your money back, the crims punished? Take them to court…What’s stopping you?

I can answer your kind and thoughtful inquiry..
Yes, Yes, I have…nothing.

Have a nice day

DrP

well, yes a crime has been committed…but, what d’you want?

The police to do their job and deal with it.

your money back,

Yes.

the crims punished?

Yes

Take them to court…What’s stopping you?

There is no need.

The police/cps deal with, and prosecute, criminal cases.

Civil courts deal with civil cases.

This is a criminal case.

A woman took my mrs for £20k worth of goods, resulting in the end of her business, police did nowt. I think the way these things are decided is pretty arbitrary so you may get some interest you might not, it’s the luck of the draw. :/

I have a set of bombers in the classifieds which may be of use…

It can seem arbitrary, and there is often a fine line. It comes down to the mindset (mens rea) of the culprit, and practically speaking, what can be proved regarding the mens rea.

If I took out a loan and subsequently refused to pay it back, I would not expect to see the police at my door to arrest me for fraud. If I had somehow acted dishonestly at the point of obtaining the loan in order to help me evade paying it back, i.e. fraudulently, then I would.

this should be treated the same as a burglary

Given my experience it sounds like they are.

Good point – is the clinic at an odd or an even number?

Before I contacted the police, I wanted to make sure it was a criminal matter.

Essentially I felts that:
-there was intent to deceive BEFORE receiving the treatments (fake names and addresses when booking)
-there was no intent to pay
-when confronted (via phone call as they drove away) they STILL gave fake names and addresses.

I think this is different to “oh, I’ve less money than I thought I had, sorry but I can’t pay..”

Stern letter being written..

DrP

Waste of time complaining to the police, they are not going to be interested in admitting they were wrong. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they made something up to turn it round so that you get blamed and charged for something instead.

The police are a complete and utter joke these days and it keeps getting worse year on year. But take some direct action yourself and they’ll suddenly find the time and energy to deal with you.

Its almost as if they have had to suffer massive cuts over the last 5 years…… ah the wonders of a Tory government ….

Have you tried complaining to the police? I’ve an ongoing complaint which I initiated through their standard complaints procedure and they’re taking it very seriously. I’d suggest going direct to the IPCC, but IIRC you have to go through the complaints procedure of the police force concerned first anyway – though if you don’t think they’ve dealt with your complaint properly you can then escalate it to the IPCC yourself I think.

As others have said: it’s got all the hallmarks of a criminal offence. There’s also a civil “offence” here too.

Criminal stuff is prosecuted by the police and CPS – this is because a law has been broken which the state is able to punish.
Civil stuff is prosecuted directly by you – this is to get you some recompense for the value of the goods/services taken.

Criminal/civil isn’t an either or choice. IT’s either civil only or it’s criminal and civil.

There could be any number of reasons why the police officer took the position they did – rather than speculate (all police are liars/saints), just crack on with getting them to do something.

I think your first mistake is to think the police would actually investigate a crime. Certainly round where I live thats highly unlikely unless it involve violence against another person or it can be charged and solved with a camera

Its almost as if they have had to suffer massive cuts over the last 5 years…… ah the wonders of a Tory government ….

my own experience of repeated damage to property well before 2010 consistently got the same tardy response – even with clear CCTV showing who was doing it still resulted in the police doing FA and failing to even come and look at the video. Our local plod constantly complains about his workload but even when handed evidence on a plate of drug dealing right under his nose lies to locals and says it’s the first he’s heard about it… so the chances of the police being interested and following up seem no different when they are “well” funded compared to when the are “under” funded.

In my view much of the “cuts” narrative is just a smoke screen in some cases for a lack of organisation and a “don’t give a monkeys” mindset. Fortunately some police forces are more progressive and show what can be achieved – Thames Valley police by all accounts seem to have swallowed the cuts, really transformed ways of working and as a result are managing more hours of front line police work.