My main issue with the service of remembrance is the religious side

I’m a devout atheist, but I attend. Our local service is multi-denominational and isn’t too heavy on the religion side. I just respectfully treat the God bits as moral philosophy. (I don’t sing either, but that’s more to do with not knowing the words, being tone deaf and chronically flat 🙂 )

Nobeerinthefridge – Member

When do we move on? After the last Tommy dies?

The thing is, as much as people misunderstand it (sometimes willfully) Remembrance Sunday isn’t about any particular war. Naturally the world wars dominate the imagination but we’re a long, long way from having no war dead to remember, and not getting any closer.

I will as ever be mostly remembering my grandads (especially for the brilliant drunken chats, when RAF Grandad would be reminiscing about the lovely time he had in Ceylon and India, while Merchant Navy Grandad would be reminiscing about the arctic convoys and getting sunk twice and losing 6 brothers in 2 years) and thinking about mates who left bits of themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remembrance isn’t just about looking back, if you forget the past you’re doomed to repeat it.

Pretty easy for those that do misunderstand it Northy, when all around are images of Lancaster, spitfire and the fields of France and Belgium.

We don’t forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Anyway, I don’t have strong views either way tbh, so I’ll go back to the bike forum, and leave the usual suspects to this…

I mentioned in another thread about Poppy Month, that I despise war and suffering. Can’t think of anyone I connect with who doesn’t think similar thoughts.

Quite what the Whailing Daily or the ”Ex”prose have to do with anything a Journalist from the Guardian has to say, again is beyond me. Both of those “pappers” are rigidly stuck in the past and are proven racial and social hatred promoters. Perpetual hatred breads hatred.

I’d disagree with the point made about the US still continuing to support the view that Americans in general look backwards and support and celebrate Wars, quite how this comment came about says more about the posters ignorance than any cultural reference made about American culture.
Whilst you do see remembrance gatherings, these are more directed towards the futility and degradation of human suffering than any glorified portrayal. Lest not forget the Vietnam fiasco, that particular war is not celebrated in any shape nor form. It’s seen more as a stupid reticent ignorance for humans and wildlife respect.
And it’s still ingrained in the US culture for those reasons.

We don’t forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Does make a complete mockery of the whole thing. Politicians pin on a poppy and look sombre for one day a year and then start another war as soon as they can get away with it / need a ratings boost….

Yes.
Don’t care what others do.

Yes I’ll be remembering this Sunday. I will donate, I wont wear a poppy or attend a service as I think these events have become part of a hagiography rather than remembrance.

I wont wear a poppy or attend a service as I think these events have become part of a hagiography rather than remembrance

I would like to wear a white poppy, but I don’t feel like I can.

I’ve no problem with remembering, but I do wish there was a greater and wider understanding and honest public discussion of this countries recent and historical past. Too often it falls into simple and repeated memes that are best glossing over reality, or at worst still the barely disguised propaganda that while at the time clearly served a useful purpose, need to be revisted now time allows.

footflaps – Member

Does make a complete mockery of the whole thing. Politicians pin on a poppy and look sombre for one day a year and then start another war as soon as they can get away with it / need a ratings boost…

Totally agree, but I don’t think it has to devalue the real thing. Production line mourning and remembrance always honks me off but if it’s meaningless then it can be meaningless for everything, good and bad.

When it’s a work day I do go off by myself though, I got the distinct impression half my colleagues are observing the silence but actually thinking about their shopping list, or boobs.

would like to wear a white poppy, but I don’t feel like I can.

I would too but I am not sure where the money goes if you buy a white poppy, hence my convoluted logic above.

I would too but I am not sure where the money goes if you buy a white poppy, hence my convoluted logic above.

Does it really matter where £1 goes?

If people really cared about ex-servicemen etc they would realise they could donate at any time of year. The whole 1 day / week a year ‘devout ex-serviceman supporter and anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor’ thing is just collective hysteria IMO.

You don’t have to agree with war to respect and remember those who gave their lives.

have marched against wars but think remembrance should be something special:

Will never forget a Mum telling me that her young lad wouldn’t be with the other beaver scouts on remembrance day as his dad had been killed in afghanistan and he’d be laying his own wreath

..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor’ thing is just… made up innit? Never worn a poppy in my life and nobody has ever noticed!

..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor’ thing is just… made up innit? Never worn a poppy in my life and nobody has ever noticed!

It’s more for people in the public eye, rather than Everyday Joes.

..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor’ thing is just… made up innit?

Yes and no. If anyone on TV / in politics forgets etc it would be front page news in the tabloids for days.

I never wear a poppy and no one has mentioned anything (yet).

Sadly true.

Was it last year that there was a big outcry in certain papers about Corbyn not bowing his head quite low enough at the Cenotaph?

(Corbyn’s mother was an Air Raid Warden and his father was a member of the Home Guard)

Those who think we should forget should remember how it is they’ve come to be in a position to be able to choose to remember or not. The arrogance and conceit is shocking and disappointing. The day we forget is the day we descend into another world war. The least we can do is to remember and be thankful – it’s only for 1 minute every year, a shorter time than it’s taken for some to write their drivel on this forum.

The way we progress as a society is to remember the mistakes of the past and learn from them. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

Buy a poppy or don’t. It’s a worthwhile charity at the end of the day if nothing else.

The way we progress as a society is to remember the mistakes of the past and learn from them. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

But we don’t. We keep going to war. We keep slaughtering innocents either in the name of what ever spurious deity “sanctioned” it or because someone else has something we want. We’ve got Trump posturing for war with North Korea and Kim reciprocating. The British recent record on war isn’t too shiny either. The whole those who don’t learn from the past are doomed to repeat it is little more than a soundbite now. DezB’s post above illustrates one of my major problems with Remembrance Day is the warmongers laying wreaths. That and worthless royals dressing up in military costumes with unearned medals.

Having said that, will I “remember”? Yes I will. War is sickening for all concerned with the exception of those who profit from it.

#edit: Just remembered this I saw last year.

I’d disagree with the point made about the US still continuing to support the view that Americans in general look backwards and support and celebrate Wars, quite how this comment came about says more about the posters ignorance than any cultural reference made about American culture.

The poster’s ignorance is an informed opinion from his American wife who arrived in the UK and found our obsession with WW2 in particular baffling.

Does what other people do on thos occaison really matter?

It’s not about us and how others perceive our actions.
Just remember, that’s the important thing.

And to anyone on here who has served, thank you.

Remembrance Day is the warmongers laying wreaths. That and worthless royals dressing up in military costumes with unearned medals.

Not all of them…
I’ll be putting a little wooden cross with a poppy on the grave of a relative who died at Arras a century ago, aged 19.

Selective quoting. I didn’t say all people laying wreaths are warmongers.

Selective quoting. I didn’t say all people laying wreaths are warmongers.

However, I bet all warmongerers lay wreaths 😉

#edit: Just remembered this I saw last year.

Yep – pretty much sums up the hypocrisy very well.

Coyote, thanks for posting the cartoon – for me, that sums it up perfectly. I have a different perspective than what seems like most of the locals around where I live. I’m in my mid 50’s and am the youngest of the family, so my parents and most of my grandparents were old enough to have lived and served in WW1 and WW2. One of my grandfathers wa a regular infantryman at the outbreak of WW1 and was one of the ‘old contemptibles’. He was involved in a lot of the battles on the Western Front and Gallipoli; he’d been wounded and gassed more than once, contracted TB from living for weeks on end in mud, rats etc., but somehow survived the whole thing (although he was never fit enough to work again afterwards). Now, here’s what some people might find odd – he couldn’t stand the whole poppy thing, and wouldn’t have one in the house apparently. He said people cared more about the dead than the living, and said the poppy thing was just Earl Haigs blood money.

I think wife’s grandfather (who fought with the 8th army in El Alamein and Normandy) had got a fairly sceptical view of the remeberance stuff too. Apparently, he thought that the country should be looking forward, not back all the time. My favourite story with him was when my wife said she once asked him why Churchill got kicked out after WW2 – he said something like ‘I spent four years fighting fascists – I wasn’t gonna come back home and vote for one of the buggers’.

Interestingly, I think the tories have reintroduced the old rule whereby invalided ex-servicemen only get pension/benefits for children that they fathered before they were discharged from the army. Maybe if the d**kheads that own the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph and Rupert Murdochs media empire actually paid realistic rates of UK tax, we might be able to afford decent social care for people like ex-servicemen & women.

Yes I will. I will observe silence, I will think of the dead. All dead of all wars. from the Tommy in the trenches to the Iraqi conscript buried by armoured bulldozers. From the French maquis to the Argentinian sailor. From the men off the arctic convoys to the german solders of Stalingrad

I will not wear a red poppy given the way it has been hijacked by the jingoistic and because of the way the money is dealt with.

True respect does not depend on symbols.

we might be able to afford decent social care for people like ex-servicemen & women.

We can, austerity is a political choice, not a fiscal necessity.

Well I will be remembering both my Grandads and of course the other brave men and women doing their duty. One of my Grandads was a dispatch rider delivering mail and messages on the front on a motorbike. A kinder gentler man you couldn’t find. The other a career soldier that got to rank of Major. Hard as nails he was. I don’t need a Remembrance Day to honour their memory. If people don’t want to remember that’s fine. If people want to wear a poppy that’s also fine. Why do we feel the need to force people to decide if they are for or against all the time.

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

I won’t be remembering because I have never seen any war first hand. Thankfully other people have done the fighting. I suspect that an awful lot of people who have would rather forget than remember as well.

I will be respectfully thinking about casualties of war. Dead or injured, civilian or military, big war, small war, civil war.

War results from failure. More often than not, the ones who suffer aren’t those who made the errors in the first place.

Yes, I think it’s true that there is now a poppy mafia, and those who choose not to wear it should be respected in their choice.

No, I don’t think the day should be scrapped and I think it and the RBL are still relevant to the 21st century. War hasn’t continued because we remember our war dead.

Simon Jenkins may try to dismiss the sense that many in 1945 and after had that ‘we’ won the war, and it’s true 3/4’s of Germans were killed on the Eastern Front. But, and this bit is crucial, it wasn’t Hitlers co-conspirator Stalin who stood up to him in 1939, nor was it the USA, it was the British & French Empires. If Britian had then submitted to an offer of armistice in June 1940 it is almost certain the USSR would have been defeated in 1941. So I get why many still see it as ‘our’ victory, even if it was shared with many other nations.

Still, Simon would probably be happy if the UK had surrendered in 1940; Remembrance Sunday wouldn’t have been permitted after that. He is correct that the victors get to write the history.

I’d recommend he directs his attention to Victory Day parades held to mark the nazi defeat in 1945 – the ones in Moscow are probably the biggest. In my opinion that’s a kind of remembering that might encourage war and is nothing like a sombre Remembrance Day parade!

[video]https://youtu.be/6MGj7CdLDds?t=2902[/video]

Might I politely suggest that those who feel unable to get involved do what ever they feel appropriate. However nasty attacks on something people feel strongly about is hardly mature or nice. Funny how those who wish to “move on” and be all caring etc are those least likely to care about the wishes of others. As proved above. Nothing scathing or nasty from those with a wish to remember, plenty from those who care more about their own views than those of others. Thankfully several generations put themselves at risk so that you have that privilege.

+1

Apparently, he thought that the country should be looking forward, not back all the time.

Just looking at the TV schedule it would seem as though the nation was still hungry for and nostalgic about Ww2.

“how we won the war”
“Britain at war”
Etc etc….

I can’t be doing with wearing or buying a poppy. It has, imo, been hijacked by the media and various Britain First type groups and now carries a somewhat jingoistic and nationalistic undertone.

It’s crap.

You don’t need tanks And subs to take over a country, its all done by the stock market and social media. That bit of threat from terrorism (which numerically is quite small), tanks and subs couldn’t sort out anyway. The ruskies helped put trumpski in place without a bullet being fired. What’s the point of Trident when our streets are filling up with itinerant mendicants?

Just looking at the TV schedule it would seem as though the nation was still hungry for and nostalgic about Ww2.

“The public wants what the public gets”

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

Really? Why?

Seems completely arbitrary to me. Surely, if someone did something worthy of honour, then what difference does it make when you honour them?

What next, an allowed 5 minutes for caring about wildlife when you can only donate to wildlife charities between 5.23 and 5.28 on the 23rd February each year?

Either something is worthy of consideration or it’s not.

footflaps – Member

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

Really? Why[/quote]I think you’ll find that TJ was being deliberately ironic – and agrees with you completely.

I will not wear a red poppy given the way it has been hijacked by the jingoistic and because of the way the money is dealt with.

True respect does not depend on symbols.
I always wear one regardless – it’s more about what it means to me, I don’t really care what it means to anyone else, I get annoyed by the media frenzy surrounding who is/isn’t wearing them on telly but it doesn’t change what the poppy means to me. And I totally respect those who choose not to wear one – that’s the fantastic thing about living in a comparatively free country, we get to choose whether to wear one or not and either way is just fine by me. 🙂

Pondo – fair enough.

Footflaps. I meant remembrance Sunday I don’t like. Its a festival of jingoism. Remembrance day is the 11th at 11am – thats when all should stop for a minutes silence. I always try to get it observed at work. this year I will not be working. All electronics will go off. I will observe a minutes silence

Remembrance Sunday is about having a time that is convenient for people so they can been seen to do something without having to stop businesses etc. Remembrance should not be about what is convenient. War is not convenient. the 11th at 11 is the anniversary of the signing of the armistice at the end of WW1. that’s why its remembrance time. It should be a personal thing. It should not be about being seen to do something. It should be about stopping and thinking.

Again – My opinion

However also the point that anytime is good for remembrance is equally valid.

Want a particular occasion – then the 11th at 11am.