I wasn't going to bother responding but when this turned up:

I would genuinely welcome the return of a proper left wing party. Not because they could be even remotely electable to government but because they could provide the most effective opposition. Good government is only as good as strong and effective opposition. I believe one of the reasons that government has got into the pickle it has has been that the opposition have not managed to protect the primacy of the parliament and hold the government more aggressively to account.

Surely the work of a comedy genius. I salute you Stoner.

So who will win the next election? A tory party. obviously.

nonono I mean if two candidates are of the same quality the one which has had the better education/ better resources may not excel as much as the person who has made it to the same standard with a poor education. A lot of people who are at good unis have had the benefit of private education and know how to ace exams but in my experience many lack common sense/ compassion for anything other than money and barbour or an appreciation of the real world and its problems.
As for children being a bit naff these last few years I have to agree that the standard of parenting seems to have gone down and so has the desire to do well at school. I went to a great school (NHGS for the calderdale people) and always felt supported to do well without needing too much of a stick I think enthusiastic and understanding teachers are what makes a school, not its discipline. It's certainly not about throwing money at schools it's about getting better teachers who can inspire rather than tell/reguritate from a text book.

Whoever wins, it's all Thatcher's fault.

Agree it's a no brain face kick if I ever meet her.

Whoever wins, it's all Thatcher's fault.

You may say this in jest, but considering the type of issues being discussed here, you are more right than you think.

Mr Cameron made clear he was not proposing to withdraw from the convention or stop people pursuing cases at the European Court of Human Rights.

But he said a panel of lawyers and constitutional experts would be set up to examine the issue to ascertain whether a bill of rights could be given legal status instead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5114102.stm

hows the frothing coming along TJ?

Surely the work of a comedy genius. I salute you Stoner.

So who will win the next election? A tory party. obviously.

go on El-Bent.
Your irony is obviously lost on me and I havent managed to identify the salient point in your argument against my post….

Personally I can only hope that Brown is sent packing at the next election. Almost single handedly the biggest disaster to have hit this country. It's getting to the point where his own party don't want him – not exactly a strong mandate for "strong leadership". Nick Clegg would have done better keeping his mouth closed as the more he speaks these days the more the public will feel they have been saved from making a poor decision in voting for the Lib Dems. And shiny Dave has lost his way a little recently. So, all in all, not a huge choice. The sad reality is that whoever wins the election we are going to be in for a pretty grim few years trying to pay off the humungous debt we are being saddled with. 😯

Before you can even tell/regurgitate from a text book you need an attentive audience. I suggest walking into a inner city classroom and finding a subject other than drugs, sex, prostitution, theft and thugery to inspire them.

Yep Reganomics, Thatcherite economics or more consisely neoliberal economics is the root of a lot of evil in the world as are the IMF WTO and NAFTA.
With the best intentions of course

finding a subject other than drugs, sex, prostitution, theft and thugery to inspire them.

isnt that the line "hip" teachers use to get rowdy kids to read MacBeth or something? 😉

Good night, and don't forget, a population generally gets the government it deserves.

There's ****-all to choose between any of 'em.

As an NHS grunt, one of my biggest bugbears is the insane amount of money wasted on PFI projects. Widespread opposition to this ludicrous white elephant was ignored in favour of silver tongued bollox from the CBI, with the likes of Allyson Pollock being dismissed as a Union shill (despite being largely correct in her predictions). Now, PFI (and its pimpmaster) was originally a Tory baby, but el Gordo ran with it to disastrous effect. So, you choose.

And as for the NHS itself – money has been spent badly (PFI, management consultants, ridiculous pseudo-market policies), but, frankly, that pales in comparison to the succour we the taxpayer have given to the square mile.

I would genuinely welcome the return of a proper left wing party. Not because they could be even remotely electable to government but because they could provide the most effective opposition.

You would genuinely welcome a proper left wing party, because they would be unelectable and as such treated as an ineffective opposition, an opposition not in tune with the UK political climate.

Before you can even tell/regurgitate from a text book you need an attentive audience. I suggest walking into a inner city classroom and finding a subject other than drugs, sex, prostitution, theft and thugery to inspire them.

F*ck me, have I accidentally logged on to the Daily mail website?

Stoner – precisely the nonsense I was talking about. Incorporating the European directive on human rights into UK law has changed nothing so neither will his proposed changes and he cannot change the status of the human rights act in Scotland. Even if he is the UK prime minister he cannot do anything with the incorporation of the human rights act in Scottish law as it is a part of the Scotland act which can only be altered with the consent of both Holyrood and Westminster.

In an interview for BBC One's Sunday AM, Mr Cameron said the Act hindered the fight on crime and terrorism.

an outright lie and it is not within his power to change it unless we England leaves the UK and the EC.

he shows how thick he is and what a liar he is. Pandering to people by telling them what they want to hear no matter how nonsensical it is.

backhander – Member

I believe one of the reasons that government has got into the pickle it has has been that the opposition have not managed to protect the primacy of the parliament and hold the government more aggressively to account.

Not again, this is pathetic. How can you blame someone else for labours sh1t policy? "it's your fault you didn't stop us"

Are you aware backhander, that it is the official role of the opposition to oppose the government, aren't you ?

They are not simply "the losers" in the equation, that's why they are officially called : "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition".

And that's why the Leader of the Opposition receives an enhanced salary – for all the hard work he is expected to do "opposing" the government.

E-b

A socialist voice is a screechy grating one. It is also loud and it has an identifiable popular support, usually in the unions (despite how neutered they have become) or from state employees, and of sufficient volume to be respected. That voice has an impact in the chamber when a right wing government is at work – despite what Thatcher did to the unions, she did it when the opposition could not stop her. By the time the opposition got its act together I think it got far more punches landed.

The Tories on the other hand have little structured electorate to represent in opposition*: take, for example the rural population. Its vast and completely unrepresented. It has no identifiable lobbying body – or at least didnt until the Countryside Alliance was created – so has no political weight to influence parliament through the opposition system.

*especially while the left are wooing the middle classes.

The Conservatives have long-pledged to look at the 1998 Human Rights Act, which incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law.

From the Beeb – also wrong. The act refferd to incorporated it into English law. It was already incorporated into scottish law under the Scotland act.

He also refers to a British bill of rights. Excluding northern Ireland then and the other various islands?

Stoner – CBI ' taxpayers alliance/ murdoch press all strong tory supporters

Taxpayers alliance only existed from a few years ago.

Murdoch supported Labour until only a few months ago.

Labour government in place. c.12 years

Also, neither represent any non-labour constituency. They have their own very small interests that do not stretch out to the electorate.

From the Beeb – also wrong.

Since I havent studied constitutional law since my first year at University, you'll have to forgive me for taking things as they are. You are far better read up on the subject than me. As it happens it's not a policy on my radar, although I do hope Kier Starmer has a good pension plan in place because his approach to the Tory rhetoric isnt going to keep him in a job past May 😉

I'm rather suspicious of the CA. Their concern seems to extend no further than a chocolate box vision of rural England (hunting being an obvious touchstone), together with the usual big landowner stuff. The farming wing of the Noteeth clan were very much old "county" Tories (chairing the local NFU, running the village fete) – and those that survive find little in common with either rentagob Dan Hannan or weekending bankers prancing around their estates.

Stoner – by that logic Labour have no support either – Unions do not slavishly follow labour policy nor do public servants.

By the time the opposition got its act together I think it got far more punches landed.

By becoming politically conservative.

Murdoch supported Labour until only a few months ago.

You obviously don't read the Sun very often.

The Sun has consistently slagged off Labour since day one. Despite the fact that in 1997, 2001, and 2005, it officially endorsed Blair.

And not only has the Sun criticised Labour on a day to day basis for years through it's general articles and editorials, but it has also paid vast amounts of money to an army of rabid right-wing rabble rousing columnists, to attack the slightest hint of civilised behaviour from a Labour government.

And yet New Labour valued more highly support from Rupert Murdoch, and what the obnoxious non-voting foreigner had to say, than the opinions of traditional Labour voters.

Prediction

Hung parliament – tories most voites very slight majority but not workable Lib dems hold both lab/tories to ransom for PR + Ulster unionist hold tories to ransom and possibly euro scpetic wing do as well – not sure who cracks first, Brown sacked/resigns and possible second election before the Crown [Liz] picks one?

The only thing worse than the Tories winning the next general election would be Labour winning it or, God forbid, a hung parliament with the turncoat scum (based on what happened in Scotland) that are the Liberals getting an undeserved taste of power.

And yet New Labour valued more highly support from Rupert Murdoch, and what the obnoxious non-voting foreigner had to say, than the opinions of traditional Labour voters.

My argument was about support whilst in opposition not support while in power. In opposition the Labour and Union movement generally speaking (once theyve had the kind of stand up bitchy argument any married couple must) talk with a common voice on behalf of an identifiable constituency in opposition to a Tory government.

Do any of you identify with any of the party manifestos? None of them have propositions come even close to my own ideals which include:

a fair progressive tax system that taxes both wealth and income based on ability to pay.

Equality in education and health.

The taxation of profit rather than work. High company tax on profits, low NI and taxes on reinvestment. Reduce the cost of opperating in Britain to reverse the job exporting trend.

The polluter pays and a carbon tax. A housing tax based on thermal performance and surface area, super taxes on the most polluting vehicles (anything beyond a basic Golf). Super taxes on the most polluting luxury goods such as flowers flown in from Africa.

Price fixing and margin capping on monopoly service providers

Drastic cutting of things local councils are allowed to do and spend money on. If it doesn't fall into education, health and essential infrastructure it doesn't get any money.

Reducing MP pay to the same level as priamry school teachers with the same rules for claiming expenses. MPs must have no other professional occupation or interests.

Making companies pay tax on profits at the point the profit is made – not in Ireland or other place that have 0% company tax.

Joining the Euro

a fair progressive tax system that taxes both wealth and income based on ability to pay.

Why does it have to be progressive? If you earn more you pay more tax with a flat rate system – surely that's fair?

High company tax on profits, low NI and taxes on reinvestment. Reduce the cost of opperating in Britain to reverse the job exporting trend.

Increasing tax on company profits isn't going to reverse jobs going out of the country.

Nope because the richer you are the more disposable income you have beyond income needed to pay for necessities. The pain of taxation should be shared fairly. Taking 40% of rich man's 500 000 is much less painful for him that taking 5% from someone with an income of 20 000 and essential expenditure of 18 500.

Punishing success. Cunning.

You can tax a company in two ways:

Tax their activity through NI, property taxes, service taxes and taxes on the goods and services they use in their activity. All these taxes increase the risk the company takes and form part of the costs it uses to compare the cost of goods sold at any production site.

Tax the profit. This in no way discourages investment, employing more people, expanding the site etc., and has no incidence on the cost of goods sold. It simply taxes profit when it is made.

Punishing success.

You only consider it being punished if you are selfish and money obsessed. Most well-balanced people would just be happy to be comfortably off and contributing to society.

Punishing success. Cunning.

The alternative is creating a poverty trap and no incentive to work at all.

Tax the profit. This in no way discourages investment, employing more people

What it does is discourage where these things happen – i.e. it'll be done somewhere other than the UK.

There are arguments to tax business less, encourage them to move to the UK and therefore generate more jobs etc. and therefore more income tax from employed people.

Your proposals regarding personal and business taxation would be fine if people didn't have a choice where to place themselves and their businesses – if you move them and the jobs they create out of the UK then everyone suffers.

To answer the OP – I would have thought the Tories have it

but ………

I remember the 1992 general election when the fortunes of the two parties were pretty much reversed from what they are today
The incumbent Tory party were deeply unpopular as a government & had [if you believed the polls] no chance of hanging on & winning

They did though

You only consider it being punished if you are selfish and money obsessed. Most well-balanced people would just be happy to be comfortably off and contributing to society.

No, most well-balanced people would simply move their companies to a country where they're not punished.

No, most well-balanced people would simply move to a country where they're not punished

can you give an example of mass emigration of well balanced people due to "punishing "tax laws?
Did they all leave when it was 95% ?

EDIT: NICE EDIT 5th 🙄