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When is enough, enough?

44 posts & 23 voices | Started 6 months ago by gravitysucks | Latest reply from TandemJeremy

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gravitysucks - Member

Sorry to lower the otherwise chippa tone of STW at the moment.

Some of you remember from previous posts of mine that my relationship has been far from rosey for sometime now.
I've sort advice on here before and always found you to be helful and honest (mostly )and just looking for an outside opinion.

So long story short me and the OH have been struggling for the last few years lots of ups and downs, many many stupid arguments and a fair dose of resentment.
We've tried many avenues and following advice on here saw a relationship counsellor for a few months as well. For a period things were looking ok, not perfect but as though we were on the right track.
We have two young children (2 & 4) and I desperate to do the right thing by everyone involved.

About 2 months ago I highlighted that we were starting to go down "That path" again and we should address things before they get out of hand. Things pretty much spiralled down from there and 4 weeks ago we had the talk and I pretty much made it clear that we have to be honest with each other and if its not going to work then we need to call it a day.
We both agreed to try again and within a few days the stuff hit the fan again. We then agreed to try again. This cycle has happended 4 times no in the last 4 weeks.

I'm now thinking that things are futile that we are not meant to be. She needs help (just seen Dr and on anti-depresants) but see's me as the enemy. I've tried helping in so many ways and take so much on the chin but still come out being painted as the bad guy.
I don't know if she is able to get back on her feet with me around.
I try to help but she always takes an alternate view on my actions or language. I know what I am saying but she is convinced I'm saying something different. I understand she is low and except that she may think that way even when its not the case but how do you deal with that?

I think a split has been a long time coming but if things could work I would want them to. I have two impressionable children in the house and after a dodgy upbringing myself I refuse to put them through a similar situation. But I don't want to walk away if there is a chance.

Am I just kidding myself?

Posted 6 months ago #
bigthunder - Member

Yip. Knock it on the head and move on to something better. Make a clean break though and dont have animosity around the kids. You have obviously tried and thats the best you can do.

Posted 6 months ago #
binners - Member

What bigthunder said! Its difficult taking that final big step, but ultimately you'll be better off for doing it. A lot better. And so will everyone else involved.

It doesn't have to be messy and acrimonious. Plenty of people have done it, while still acting like grown ups

Posted 6 months ago #
Torminalis - Member

No kids where I am but I am in the middle of this right now.

If you live under the shadow thought of as being a bad guy, no matter how feint, it will start to affect your esteem. Look after yourself. Wish you all the best.

Posted 6 months ago #
captaincarbon - Member

End it now. clean break. No animosity on your part. It hurts like hell and you will doubt what you've done possibly, but you have to be honest with yourself first and foremost.

Posted 6 months ago #
oddjob - Member

How about getting her to see a therapist of some sort. See if that helps. I have had some pretty down times and ended up getting sent to see someone by my wife (altough she never threatened to throw me out)
It was the best thing I ever did and it helped to change my perspective on so many things that in some ways, I am a much better person to live with since doing it.

Get her to see someone and give her another few months to see if it works. I guess that behind all of the problems, you seem to be able to get on, therapy could help put the problems to one side and allow you to do that again.
Good luck

Posted 6 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

I try to help but she always takes an alternate view on my actions or language. I know what I am saying but she is convinced I'm saying something different

Yes I go to that stage and she is till doing it - last night at mediation [ 2 years after separation and both dating other folk etc] and she is still doing it.

No matter what I do or say she takes the worst possible interpretation of it and just runs with that - it is her default setting.

Its tough I dont really know what you can do tbh only you know if it will get better or not
FWIW I could not leave my kids but I could have left her easily so needed to be made to leave - this did not help things in the short run as the relationship deteriorated past the point where we even liked/respected each other. With hindsight it would have been better to leave earlier.
Chin up and good luck.

Posted 6 months ago #
morgs - Member

I was at the same stage as you...in fact the similarities made me thought I'd sleep-wrote this thread!

I'm in the process of getting divorced...nearly 2 years since I moved out and have now found a fantastic OH who actually thinks something of me. Not only that, completely accepts the situation with 'the ex' and is supportive to the n'th degree.

It's hard and makes you feel awful, but looking back I'm glad I left.

Good luck fella and remember your family and friends. I shut mine out when they tried to help as I took the breakdown of my marriage as a personal failure so was ashamed of it. That was a stupid attitude - friends are amazing things...take all the support you can.

Posted 6 months ago #
Sue_W - Member

gravitysucks - that's such a difficult situation. It does sound as though you have both been trying to work towards resolving it, but it appears that you are now in repeated patterns of behaviour which are quite negative. It's a really tough call, for both of you, and I don't think any of us on here can give you a definative answer, just maybe share experiences as that can help.

My experience might help with your question of:

I don't know if she is able to get back on her feet with me around.

2 years ago, myself and my long-term partner were in a pretty similar position to you. I'd had post-viral fatigue for the preceeding 9 months, and it had caused significant anxiety attacks as well as a phsyical inability to do much. Neither of us really understood what was going on, but of course it affected him as well as me. The short answer was that he decided he wanted our relationship to end after 16 years together (although he didn't want to go to counselling etc). It's a really, really hard thing to go through, but I respect and appreciate that we both tried incredibly hard to hurt each other as little as possible through an emotionally charged period. I'm proud of the fact that in the last 18 months of seperating we have both have acted with care, consideration and respect for each other. In the end, it's important to remember that you care about each other, even if your relationship no longer works.

The end result? I've been lucky to overcome my PVF and anxiety, and am now far more active than I have probably ever been. I have a good network of friends, and my confidence in myself has returned. To go back to your question: could I have done it if he had been around? - possibly not, by then he perceived me as someone who had 'problems' and when you are in that box it is very hard to break out of it. That's not an accusation, as I think my ex is a good person, who I still respect and care about. I do get down sometimes about being alone, and I miss him, but I acknowledge that his feelings changed and he then acted with consideration and sensitivity. As has been said, not all relationships have to end acrimoniously!

I hope that you're able to move forward positively, in whatever way is best for you. Good luck, and take care.

Posted 6 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Cheers guys your all pretty much confirming my currant state of mind.
At the point I decided we should probably break up, I decided I would only do that if I was sure we has really tried and knew there would be no regrets or concerns about what might have been.
That was well over a year ago.

Oddjob - I have actually sugested a therapist to her or an independant counsellor, anyone basically. Offered to pay whatever the cost may be if it gives her someone to speak to thats outside the currant enviroment. She doesn't seem keen though and I don't want to force the issue. I've told her I would support her but I can't caryon being an emotional punchbag.

I think the situation is pretty much as Sue described her own. After months and months of trying many many different things I kind of think that theres too much water under the bridge and that she won't be able to get her self sorted if she's within this relationship.

The hardest thing is that it looks like I have to make this decision. I'm not sure if its a powerplay so she can say I left her or just if she's not strong enough to make the desicion herself. Either way it feels like the only option I have left and its not the one I want.

I'm increasingly aware of how this must be affecting the kids and It kills me to think they're suffering as well.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Hmmm

Do you both want to make the relationship work?

Are you still seeing the counsellor and did they help?

this not intended to be judgemental or to apportion blame

To me it seems like that its for both of you to accept help is needed and that you need to seek the professional help - Maybe its just me but the tone of your posts says you believe it to all be her fault -but IME generally it takes two to tango - fault will be on both sides. She would appear to believe you blame her and then that reinforces her lack of self worth.

so - counselling again - relate for the relationships stuff and maybe someone else for depression related stuff. its not for you to tell he that she must go - its for you to accept that you both need it

Depression is a nasty thing and it makes people behave in odd ways including pushing others away.

the hardest thing to do sometimes is to take the blame out of it - accept that "this is" and then to move forwards from there.

good luck

Posted 6 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

TJ - We did the relate thing for about 6 months. It did help but after about 4 months of it we realised we had got a lot of benefits from it and coping measures but it was also instilling some negative behaviours.
ie she would not make the effort to talk to me if she knew we were seeing the counsellor. This meant if something was on her mind she would not talk to me for 5 days and save it until we were in a session.
We both decided it was for the best to step away from the relate sessions.

I'm not laying all the blame at her feet. This has been going on a long time and i'm sure there are things we have both done that have not helped.

The difference is clear though in the way she reacts to a situation.
The cycle we have been in for the last 4 weeks is a farce.
For instance:
We have a falling out, she goes into herself and refuses to talk or address anything. I give her space and time and do not push the issue. After about 3 days of silence and her going away to decide what she wants she is then ready to talk.
We both agree that we want it to work. We both agree to not have the on going days of silence and brushing things under the rug.
We make up and promise each other that we will try.
Two days later we fall out again. She refuses to do the one thing we agreed to do. She then accuses me of pushing or pressurising her if I ask her not to ignore me for days again. So now i'm the bad guy.
I back off. She ignores me for a further 3 days or so then comes back and trys to talk. She tells me she wants it to work. She promises to try and talk and not ignore me for days on end......
You get the picture.
We have had this "Talk" four times in the last four weeks.

Whilst she is ignoring me, I am suppsed to just give her her space, not say anything, not complain and then be poitive when she wants to talk.

Is this a balanced effort? I feel like I am just on a really shite merry go round

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Gravity sucks - its really hard to say from the posts - I was really as much asking questions for you to answer to yourself. It do here a lot of "her" and "she" not "us" and "we" Its fairly easy to accept some blame superficially yourself - its very very hard to actually accept it deep in your being.

Why don't you go to the relate counsellor on our own for a session or two? Shows willing to her and also might help you straighten things out in your mind.

Is the depression your other half has a result of the relationship breakdown or a cause?

Why are you having "fallings out"?

I do feel that its too soon to give up on it all yet - but I clearly only have a very glib and basic understanding of your position. I do not intend to be offensive - I intend to give you things to ponder on.

good luck again

Posted 6 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Jeezus, that's pretty insensitive dude.

EDIT: obviously not @ TeeJ.

Posted 6 months ago #
Kenny Senior - Member

From what you describe, it seems that your wife deals with things (or doesn't) just like I do. I don't know about her, but for me the root cause is cripplingly low self-esteem, the background to which I try not to think about. It took me a long time and a bit of professional assistance to work this out. Now I'm just starting to try and overcome it, which to be honest I am finding very difficult. But there we go, just have to keep trying.

I don't have any advice really. I suppose everyone in life has their struggles, and maybe this is hers?

Posted 6 months ago #
zippykona - Member

How is she with other people? If she is fine, then its probably time to call it quits. If on the whole she is miserable then maybe depression. Does she have any activities other than being a mum?
I have friends and family who do things I don't agree with. But that's how they are and I accept them regardless.
That's how relationships should be. It seems like your OH may have given up trying.
I know it sounds trite, but give her a hug and see how you feel.
As a kid my parents argued all the time and it wasn't a nice place to be. Them splitting up was the best thing they did.

Posted 6 months ago #
derekrides - Member

I tend to Tandem jeremys view, clearly you want it to work, but you're doing it wrong, you're not making her happy, you are more concerned that she's not pleasing you, that's not how it works.

As a man your job is to provide security and happiness, you have to make her feel happy and at ease, you need to make her feel good about herself, obviously you're not doing that.

You should start by admitting here all your bad points, tell us all the shit things you do that piss her off, then we'll tell you other things you're not doing, never mind the fact she's destroyed her body bearing you two fine children and God knows what other stuff she's done for you, that you never appreciate or show any gratitude for (and are probably totally unaware of given you're male and wouldn't realise anyway).

Tell me your birth date and her birth date for a starter and I'll tell you wether it's worth carrying on, difficult to do this by remote without meeting you both, in real life i could tell your right away, here it's going to be difficult.

But you obviously care and have tried so far, don't chuck the towel in this side of Christmas, those kids don't deserve to lose their dad right now do they?

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

I know what I am saying but she is convinced I'm saying something different. I understand she is low and except that she may think that way even when its not the case but how do you deal with that?

If she is clinically depressed, then you have to get some kind of counselling or advice on how to deal with it. That is a classic symptons.

"In sickness and in health" also refers to mental health. And yes you may not be married, I understand that.

Posted 6 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Grantway - thanks for the sound advice but my Father committed suicide and it pretty much screwed up all the family he left behind so I'll give that option a miss if you don't mind.

Posted 6 months ago #
derekrides - Member

Some questions for you.

What's her favorite perfume and when was the last time you bought her some?

Ditto Flowers.

When was the last time you got a babysitter in and took some time out to go for a meal, see a show in town or just went for a drink together?

Vacation have you been on one with the kids lately?

When was the last time you bought her a new dress/pair shoes/handbag?

Posted 6 months ago #
miaowing_kat - Member

Can't tell whether you're talking about relationship problem or depression/self-esteem issues.

How long has she been low? Is she angry with just you or with everyone? Always difficult to sort out Depression issues with others, especially if she doesn't want help yet. Yes, she may be on antidepressants but (In my experience only) you have to wait until that point that you actually want to change yourself before anything comprehensive actually happens.

When that time comes I do think it's good to have as much personal space as possible. I also think if you see a lot of each other when her own personal issues are still muddled and up in the air it is very difficult to stop sinking back into the cycle of talks you have described.

No idea how you tell when enough is enough. Coming from the side where I was the one with the negative issues to deal with, I would say that I don't remember seeing the 'OH' as the bad-guy, far from it. I rebelled against him, I did horrible things to hurt him, but I knew that he only wanted to see me happy and healthy. However, I don't know if he knew that I felt that way.

Took me 3 years to be happy with myself. He stuck with me 'cause he was (is) amazing; before deciding he had commitment issues

Posted 6 months ago #
Dino - Member

What the head makes cloudy
The heart makes very clear

I'm sure there's a song in that
Only you know, either way u need to break the cycle
All the best chap

Posted 6 months ago #
flip - Member

As a man your job is to provide security and happiness

Totally disagree a mans job is to provide 'happiness' if she is not happy he can't provide it.

My ex used to say this to me, i used to tell her if she can't make herself happy how can i?

Posted 6 months ago #
miaowing_kat - Member

derekride's questions make me laugh, clearly I haven't cottoned on to the secret that relationships are excellent ways of getting free stuff - I've never been given flowers, perfume, a handbag, dress or shoes! did once get a pair of biking gloves 'cause they were too small for him

Posted 6 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

I'm taking all this in. Cheers guys.

As far as making her feel special, I continuosly go out of my way to do things that will please her. Even to the point of walking on egg shells and trying to avoid situations.
Not particularly gift givers but thinking about it. In the last two weeks I have organised a night out, gave her flowers and encouraged her to do more things with her friends.
I can't say this has been reciprocated though.

The thing i'm struggling to get my head round as the thread title "When is enough, enough?"
I do want this to work and have been trying for the last two years, the relate, the encouragement, the constant forgiveness has all come from my side.

Her default setting is to avoid problems so nothing is ever addressed. I eventually just think start with a clean slate but thats half the problem. All these isues just get compounded.
After telling her that My Dad's Mum passed away last week she responded with "Oh". No mention of it has been brought up again or any consideration shown.

As far as the falling out goes its always something rediculous.
Last night fallout was because I came home from work and found her sorting the climbing gear out.
I asked "When are you going climbing?"
I have previously encouraged her to get climbing again and get out with her friend whilst I look after the kids.
She took this question as me being annoyed or angry at her. That I didn't want her to go. That I had plans of my own on that particular night (I still didn't know which night).
This is not what I meant or felt. I was actually pleased she was going out. No amount of trying to convince her was going to cut it.
She decided what I meant and that was it. My intentions or thoughts on the matter were irrelevant.
So she though a big hissy fit, accussed me of all sorts and then got nasty name calling etc.
I'm just stood there confused like "what just happened"

This is typical example of a falling out that results in 3 days of silence and me having to forget it all and come back all poistive and encourage her to talk to me.

Posted 6 months ago #
flip - Member

As far as making her feel special, I continuosly go out of my way to do things that will please her. Even to the point of walking on egg shells and trying to avoid situations.

Frankly imo it's time to call it a day, you can't live like that, i've been there too and we parted with one child.

We are now both with new partners and i'm totally happy (she's not though, cus he's a ****)

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

As far as making her feel special, I continuosly go out of my way to do things that will please her. Even to the point of walking on egg shells and trying to avoid situations.

Very much not the same thing...

Posted 6 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Very much not the same thing...

Its not a comparison i'm trying to highlight as well trying to make her feel special i'm also trying to avoid the confrontaions she struggles with so much.

My heads a big mashed up mess

Posted 6 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Loving the Devil's Advocates. Your attempts to be objective are crippingly cringeworthy. OP, if everything you say is true, then it's time to call it a day mate. You can't go on living like this. She needs help and may seek it when you're gone. Try to be grown up about it. And act before everything turns very toxic.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

Really sounds to me like a case of depression. This has been talked on here before - men tending to want to get out the problems and find solutions, but this can be entirely the wrong thing to do sometimes.

Lots of things can cause this, but the result is people arguing a lot and generally being miserbale, as you describe... Hard to suggest a solution without knowing you both mind.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

gravitysucks

My heads a big mashed up mess

My advice is to go talk to a professional yourself relate or a person centred counsellor would be my recommendation

Un mash your head then you might see things more clearly in whatever direction is right

Walking on eggshells is not healthy and it might even make things worse by making her feel indebted to you which further lowers esteem.

Chill for a bit, go thru life as normally as possible, don't rise to the rows ( it takes two to argue), get your head unmashed then see how things stand.

email me off forum if I can be of further help

Posted 6 months ago #
rightplacerighttime - Member

My heads a big mashed up mess

Can't say I have anything useful to say in regard to the big picture, except to wish you luck.

But on this particular point I would say - sleep on it, and before you do do anything terminal, just have a think about how you see your life once you are apart - where will you both live, where will the kids live, how much will you see them, how will your finances change, how will you feel if you don't see your OH again except as an acquaintance with a half share in your kids?

edit: Oh, and also, be aware that in 4 or 5 years the kids will be reasonably independent and you will start to get some of your life back which will also help - can you hang on that long?

edit edit: Can't imagine how hard being a single parent of 4 and 2 year olds must be - ours are now 8 and 6 and it has been a huge effort for both of us to get to where we are with them.

Posted 6 months ago #
derekrides - Member

TandemJeremy - Member
gravitysucks
My heads a big mashed up mess

My advice is to go talk to a professional yourself relate or a person centred counsellor would be my recommendation

Un mash your head then you might see things more clearly in whatever direction is right

Walking on eggshells is not healthy and it might even make things worse by making her feel indebted to you which further lowers esteem.

Chill for a bit, go thru life as normally as possible, don't rise to the rows ( it takes two to argue), get your head unmashed then see how things stand.

email me off forum if I can be of further help

He's right on the button.

Right now you most definitely are the problem, that climbing equipment thing was entirely something else going on. Now I'm not a shrink, nor professionally qualified to comment, but you need a business trip away for a bit, some other reason to get away give her some space to sort her own personal issues out.
Oh and that doing things for her thing, that should be unconditional, because you love her, not because you expect anything in return, you need to treat her as you do your own little girl, show her the same kind of unconditional love, expect nothing in return, you really haven't quite come to grips with the way they think what they are. They need love even when they are being total shits and they need forgiveness, but, they need boundaries beyond which you aint going to take their bullshit and by that i mean you walk away, go out leave them to it, not shout shit at them.

Anyway, like I said I'm not qualified other than living with them for far to long and putting up with their shit wish I'd been gay.

And Kat, I'm really sorry he doesn't appreciate you, ever though of giving him a little tap in the nuts?
Joking only joking that was a joke. If I loved you Kat I'd spoil you, because you mean everything to me and it makes me happy to make you a little happy and watch those eyes sparkle...

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Right now you most definitely are the problem,

Is not what I said at all.

you need to treat her as you do your own little girl,

ridiculous - she is an adult woman.

Posted 6 months ago #
stevewhyte - Member

Gravity, can i give you some advice.

Dont take advice on issues like this on a biking forum.

Its too serious and warrents better than most of us numpties will give.

Posted 6 months ago #