Whats this hole for?!? « Singletrack Forum

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Whats this hole for?!?

74 posts & 26 voices | Started 6 months ago by mrjmt | Latest reply from MoseyMTB

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amedias - Member

toys - I'm with you on this one, but they way I have explained it to the nay-sayers in the past is:

> the faux-bar system is a 4 bar *linkage*

> the fuax-bar system is NOT a 4 bar *suspension system*.

ie:
It is a 4-bar linkage, there are physically 4 bars in this arrangement.

However the important element is where in the linkage the wheel is attached.

On a faux-bar system the wheel is only 'suspended' by one of them, making it a single pivot suspension system, with linkage actuated shock.

Using this explanation normally results in "ahhhhh, i see!"

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

It's all about the Horst Link innit.
Faux bar don't have it whereas Four Bar do.

ah, but no, you don't have to have a 'horst' pivot for it to be a 4-bar.

The horst bit only refers to a very specific placement of the pivot. VPP/Maestro/DW/Lawwill are 4-bar suspension systems too, just arranged in a different way, and consequently give entirely different suspension characteristics.

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

amedias fair enough, except in the green bike above (the op's image) there are only 3 bars? (unless you include the floating linkage)

Posted 6 months ago #
mrjmt - Member

thats not my image.

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

there are only 3 bars

frame = a bar
rocker = a bar
chainstay = a bar
seatstay = a bar

= 4, same as a FSR style horst 4-bar.

if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.

Posted 6 months ago #
kimbers - Member

who cares what the suspension system is called
its all marketing BS anyway

the important thing is that they are awesome bikes, if i could justify it id replace my one with the crc deal but its just lovely as it is

now has slx cranks and a gravcity dropper, just came back from a weekend at afan and brechfa where it was da bomb!

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

That doesnt count otherwise a true four bar would be called a five bar.
Look at this wikipedia link

The actual four bar has 4 parts not including the frame - its the only way to get a non radial wheel path.

if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.

Unfortunately this doesn't work because then the wheel would follow the radial path of the seatstay instead.

(edit apologies to the non pedants - flow started it and has a habit of being rude, others are more interested technically - like me and amedias here so we surely can be allowed to discuss it? )

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.
Unfortunately this doesn't work because then the wheel would follow the radial path of the seatstay instead.

nope - it does work.

On the Kona, move the pivot that is currently above the rear axle, on the seatay, to the horst position on the chainstay.

Then you have the same configuration as a FSR. No extra 'bars' created

Visualise the setup without the rear wheel/axle, and you will see they are essentially the same mechanical system, the difference is where you attach the wheel.

Posted 6 months ago #
greeble - Member

Visualise the setup without the rear wheel/axle, and you will see they are essentially the same mechanical system, the difference is where you attach the wheel.

leading to a different axle path

Posted 6 months ago #
mrjmt - Member

so we surely can be allowed to discuss it?

Discuss WTF you'd like, this is the internet, knock yourself out!

Back to the original topic however, some people dont even have a hole, they have a small protrusion. They're called 'outies'.

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

Ah yes I see that.. And the horst link in wikipedia has the same no of bars as the kona.
Anyway, a radial axle path = single pivot as far as I'm concerned, non radial axle path - who knows what to call it..

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

leading to a different axle path

indeed, that was never in dispute.

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

looky, i made a picture

(and yes, resultant axle paths, braking etc will be different, just illustrating the misconceptions about 4-bar and faux-bar, they are both 4-bar linkages, but only one is 4-bar suspension)

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

amedias good work. I get why its called four bar suspension. What's more important is why single pivot is called single pivot. Because there is only one pivot on the axle path, or one pivot between the wheel and the frame. You can add as many linkages as you like between the other side of the axle and the suspension and call it what you like but if the axle is on a radial arm from the frame then its single pivot. Like the Kona.

Posted 6 months ago #
DezB - Member

ah, but no, you don't have to have a 'horst' pivot for it to be a 4-bar.

The horst bit only refers to a very specific placement of the pivot.

Oh, ok. I ride a Yeti anyway, which is better.

Posted 6 months ago #
mrjmt - Member

Good lord, I'm starting to have a slight interest in this now.

So, I get the technical difference. Question is, which is better? I'm guessing proper four bar as it appears it should be defended by a gentlemans honour at all costs, but if it is that much better then why bother with a faux bar design at all? I can't see that it'll cost any more or less....

Posted 6 months ago #
matt_outandabout - Member

Question is, which is better?

Whichever is the best colour....

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

'proper' 4 bar allows for more tuning of the wheel path.
it also eliminates braking forces from the suspension travel eliminating braking squat (which is prevelent on some single pivot bikes). A floating brake arm can remove this problem on a single pivot bike.
single pivot bikes generally have a stiffer back end as there is only one pivot to beef up

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

which is better

whichever one you prefer the ride of

I'm a firm believer in there not being a 'best', there are lots of competing designs all with the positives and negatives.

What is best for you is the one that fits your wallet, ride style, maintenance concerns, and sense of aesthetics.

Personally I actually own and have owned faux bar, 4-bar (in FSR and non-FSR variants), lawwill, single pivot and VPP from numerous different manufacturers. I could bore you to tears with the nuances of each one but I would never declare one as 'best'

A lot of MTB suspension designs have come about due to the need to avoid somebody elses patent...

Matt

Posted 6 months ago #
DezB - Member

Mine was a statement, not a question

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

mrjmt

Single pivots as defined by me (including linkage driven single pivots etc) all supposedly suffer from brake induced forces (jack or squat depending on the placement of things). This is either noticeable and destroys your fun, or not noticable, and under certain circumstances some people say it locks the suspension up, although I've ridden SP's all my life and never had any issues. In fact some SP's have such a tiny amount of it that its debatablke if you woudl notice .
A brill explanation of brake induced forces is found here.

If you read the thing above you will discover that the four bars etc can also get brake jack despite what others would have you believe..

Whether one is better than the other is down to personal choice and marketing bollocks..

Oh and this:-

A lot of MTB suspension designs have come about due to the need to avoid somebody elses patent...

Posted 6 months ago #
xiphon - Member

Several frames have brake arms - my 222 has an Independant Braking System (IBS) arm.

Unfortunately, I'm not 1337 enough to actually notice the difference... but I'm sure someone on STW will pipe up and say there's a huge difference

The black part the caliper is attached to...

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

1337 ? que?

Posted 6 months ago #
kimbers - Member

well you have to pay spesh a fiver(or something similar) a bike in patent fees to use a four bar

its a pain for some but for dave weagle its been a godsend!

edit: faux bar was so named by specialized patent department to make their version sound better

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

If you read the thing above you will discover that the four bars etc can also get brake jack despite what others would have you believe..

how true... Schwinn/Yeti Lawwills in particular are bloody awful for it. However I still ride one on a regular basis and love other aspects of the design, and you get pretty good at anticipating and counteracting the bad bits of most designs after a while.

Posted 6 months ago #
cheez0 - Member

whats this hole for?

Its there to ~~provoke~~ stimulate another lively STW ~~argument~~ debate

Posted 6 months ago #
xiphon - Member

ha ha sorry, habit instead of writing 'elite' when used in a slightly sarcastic tone. It's a computery thing.

Here's a bit about it..

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet )

Posted 6 months ago #
mrjmt - Member

Thats OK then as I bought it based on price and colour.

Posted 6 months ago #
toys19 - Member

Posted 6 months ago #
amedias - Member

cheezo - no arguments here, just grown-up discussion and debate, you must be thinking of the *other* Singletrack, where brand/design loyalty cause threads to escalate into massive flame wars between 'big-hitters' and then everyone starts shouting about helmet wearers....

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

a mate of mine used to ride an early patriot and it had a lot of brake 'dive' at the rear - the bike would noticably sink down in its travel under heavy braking. the sus still worked though - and having ridden more modern patriots, it seems to be something that doesn't affect the bikes so much any more (maybe due to angles) which could be why orange no longer offer an IBD?

Posted 6 months ago #
flow - Member

Own a Kona by any chance, flow? Getting all defensive?

No I don't actually.

Its just toooo easy

Read it and weep

Posted 6 months ago #
kimbers - Member

that kona article ........

as a konafanboy i agree completely with their PR

buit its sums it up nicely

4-bar = more pedal bob
faux bar = more brake jack

Posted 6 months ago #
mrjmt - Member

that kona article ........

as a konafanboy i agree completely with their PR

buit its sums it up nicely

4-bar = more pedal bob
faux bar = more brake jack

Well, I spend more time pedalling than braking so.....

Posted 6 months ago #
wrecker - Member

Truth be told, Horst-Link suspension was originally designed for motorcycles. You won't find the system on
any motorcycles today, simply because it doesn't work

Yeh right.

Posted 6 months ago #