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Hmmmm. I'm a bit meh on it... looked a lot like as much his fault as the drivers.
weeksy - Memberlooked a lot like as much his fault as the drivers.
Not trying to start a fight on a sad subject but... Really, how? He felt fast- don't know what the limit is and it's hard to judge in a video- but the car pulled right in front of him. Speed worsened it but the driver caused it.
Avoidable yes, but car driver entirely at fault.
#thinkbike stuff like this always has an odd effect on me. They always seem to pop up when I'm thinking about getting a bike and put me off completely 🙁
I had more or less exactly the same accident on my push bike. I was going downhill faster than the right turner expected and he stopped, saw me misjudged my speed and turned.
Having seen him stop I thought he wasn't going to go and let off my brakes, he turned. I went gaaaaaargh and then over his roof.
Fortunatley it was at lower velocities so I was pretty lucky and only walked away with a buggered up shoulder.
Insurance is in progress and driver is totally liable (this has been confirmed)
the inquest found he was doing 97mph when he crashed.
I think the release of the video is for the benefit of riders and motorists.
Ch Insp Spinks added: “We know from the footage that David was travelling up to 100mph. Regardless of the speed of the bike, the car manoeuvre should not have been attempted. Clearly, he was taking a risk and has paid the ultimate price. The majority of bikers ride responsibly however, I’m sure many will relate to the riding style seen in this video. We know motorcyclists are a vulnerable group and this sad case is a reminder to all roads users to be alert to what is going on around you and to lower your speed.”
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/a47_death_crash_driver_disqualified_1_3523497
[i]I think the release of the video is for the benefit of riders and motorists. [/i]
this.
Like his mum said - everyone needs to think.
It is very sad but looking at where the needle on the rev counter and the spedo, he was going very fast, I reckon less than 2 seconds in time to react
I'd agree with Weeksy with it been 50/50 fault. He is doing around 85/90mph (Yamaha FJR1300 - needle at 11-12 o'clock) and as a driver (and motorcyclist) I wouldn't have expected anything to approach me that fast on a single carriage road without the use of blue lights and sirens.
Hopefully it will get the message across to both drivers and bikers in equal measure.
The Norfolk Police report reckons he was doing 97mph.
http://www.norfolk.police.uk/newsandevents/newsstories/2014/september/hardhittingvideolaunched.aspx
So 37mph over the limit assuming that was an NSL road.
Not saying that the car driver wasn't at fault, but you do wonder how it would have panned out if he only been doing 60..
37mph = 16.5 metres/second...
Terrible loss of life whatever the circumstances and not an easy video to watch...
Avoidable yes, but car driver entirely at fault.
I'm a motorcyclist. I ride 12,000+ miles a year. I wish I hadn't watched that vid. It's quite upsetting because, to me, it's very very real. Very very familiar, even though that's never happened to me.
Yes. It was the car drivers fault. No doubt.
But, and this is the biggie, that doesn't matter because the rider could have avoided it easily. It matters not who's fault it is, it's more important to avoid a collision.
He was overcooking that to quite some extent. That looked like a Fazer 1000 from the clocks to me, and that's a rapid machine, and he was doing some serious speed. There's no doubt about that. He had no chance of avoiding the car and there was sadly only one outcome.
I'm not going to watch that again but that junction, to him, approached at a serious pace. As such he appeared as if out of nowhere to the car driver.
I've got a Golden Rule. I don't ride like a tit when there's anyone else around (which is always these days) if I launch myself into a hedge or wall on my own, then I've only myself to blame. It just not worth it.
That's really affected me and I'll be thinking of it for a while. I'm glad the mother had the film released.
Bike was fast but very visible before the car turned in, I'd have thought
They used to have exhibits at service stations of crashed vehicles and I remember seeing a bike fully embedded in a car's front seating compartment one time 😥
Having made that 'Wooah' noise myself, that was a butt clencher.
Tough old camera, tho.
The problem with speed is, as I've said many times, is that OTHER PEOPLE are not expecting it. You see a car in the distance, you think 'oh there's plenty of time to turn'. And suddenly, there isn't.
Having watched the video though, it's more marginal than that. The driver might've had time to react (ie stop half way out), and the rider might've had time to swerve left.
Excessive speed is just dangerous.
It matters not who's fault it is, it's more important to avoid a collision.
EXACTLY this. You may be entirely in the right (although this guy wasn't) but you need to be able to avoid OTHER PEOPLE's **** ups. There's no point in being in the right and dead.
That's really affected me and I'll be thinking of it for a while. I'm glad the mother had the film released.
Yeah. The actual footage is important, because you can see how the accident acually happened.
I think the Judge was wrong to make little of the fact the motorcyclist was going so much faster than the NSL.
If a cyclist is legally not wearing a helmet, it's used in mitigation for the benefit of a driver who hits and injures them, but a motorcyclist speeding far in excess of the legal limit isnt considered a mitigating factor. Seems inconsistent at least.
+1 what PP said. Although Im only a new arrival to motorcycling. But I ride like Im born to be mild and always assume that not everyone is not trying to kill you.
[BTW, PP, I am now a proud owner of an NC700X]
Well that made me feel quite awful.
Strange experience watching a helmet cam video of a collision knowing that the wearer dies. The way the camera just rolls to a stop is horrible.
and the rider might've had time to swerve left.
Not at that speed Mol. Bikes are very stable at that speed and difficult to turn. If he did get to the brakes that would have stood the bike up in a straight line too.
Other than that I agree with you.
Didn't watch it,but if you have been around bikes for a while then you know that that shit happens all the time.
Sometimes it's just wrong place ,wrong speed ,wrong time .
As an old bloke told me when I first got a bike " It's not the speed that kills you son,it's lack of respect for the speed that will catch you,don't get casual"
Yes. It was the car drivers fault. No doubt.
bikers fault - driving illegally - car driver would not have been expecting someone to be coming at him at that speed - 80/20 bikers fault at least.
You drive a bike around at speeds like that and you pretty much deserve what you get, especially as you are likely to be hurting someone else as well.
Whos fault it was is not for discussion, the point is everybody needs to be more careful and look out for each other.
RIP to the rider and huge respect for his mum for doing what she is to raise awareness and save future accidents.
molgrips comments about speed are very true.
When I used to regularly drive on the autobahns, I had to be so careful pulling out for overtakes on the unrestricted sections. A car that looks a long way away closes very quickly on you when you're doing 80 and they're doing 120/130...
I think the point of the video is that [i]it doesn't matter who's fault it is[/i] everyone can learn something.
Drivers: Look twice and don't assume the bike rider knows you're going to pull across and will have time to react.
Motorcyclists: Don't ride like a knob in traffic.
Good that it is promoting discussion and debate. Hopefully will make people think. I'm firmly in the biker's fault camp. Yes the car driver could have anticipated and given more space but if you ride a bike at nearly 100mph on a busy, single carriageway its only a matter of time before you have a crash.
Sombre viewing. I'm glad the mother released it.
The issue with the motorcyclists speed is that the driver would probably not be have been looking that far down the road. I would guess he was looking for traffic doing 40/50 and therefore say a 100 yds up the road not 200. That does impact what you see. High speed like that around junctions is high risk. The driver cut the junction yes.
I've had that happen, but luckily I was only doing 50 and in a car. I reckon these things happen when folk don'tlook twice. We all have blind spots.
Look twice.
if you ride a bike at nearly 100mph on a busy, single carriageway its only a matter of time before you have a crash.
disagree with that to be honest. It looks to me like he's spending more time farting about waving 'thanks' to people and looking for their reaction and then simply wasn't paying enough attention.
I don't want to get into a peeing competition about speeds and stuff, but the speed he was doing was not IMO excessive.
Bike pulls out to overtake hatchback at 2.49, has accelerated to do so and continues to wind it on during pass and afterwards, clipping red painted chevron areas marked for right turns across traffic. Needle continues to climb right until the last couple of frames at 2.53. Don't know about biking, but when I was taught to drive I was told never to accelerate into a more dangerous area, i.e. junctions, bends, camber, traffic. I can't put a big proportion of blame on the driver. I'd imagine he started by timing his turn to the hatchback, before he even had a chance to see the bike, even then he may have panicked and moved first, seeing a bike moving out into the central area at 90+ heading for where he's sat. Watched it with sound off so I may be wrong, but to I'd rather not dwell on it too long.
The speed is obviously a major issue, but the car starts to turn as the motorcyclist gets to the arrow in the road. Even at a slower speed there would have been a collision. Maybe the rider would have survived, who knows, but the driver got it badly wrong.
craigxxl - MemberI wouldn't have expected anything to approach me that fast on a single carriage road without the use of blue lights and sirens.
But ask yourself, why does that matter? You should be observing what's there, not what you expect to be there. And if the bike had been going at half the speed, it'd still have been dangerous and wrong to pull out in front of it.
Yes I agree, respect to his mum. Even though I knew what was about to happen it still made me catch my breath when it did. Very sad.
Not arguing about blame, but what I find hard to understand is how you could fail to correctly perceive the bike coming straight at you. I (slightly) get it if you are stopping to turn out of a T junction and just glance to your right and don't allow enough time to gauge speed. But as in this case, if you are driving towards the bike, you've had plenty of time to assess the speed, so what exactly have you been looking at? Let's face it. In this case the guy hit the front of the car, he didn't just clip the rear end. The car's manoevre was never going to succeed, so I don't think it is the case that he misjudged the turn due to the biker speeding. And he said at the trial he just didn't [i]see[/i] him. I just don't understand that at all. What on earth was he looking at in the time it took him to turn?
Sobering stuff in as much as I can well believe that the drier didn't see him coming and it really re-enforces that you must try very hard never to put yourself in a situation on your bike where you are relying on a driver seeing you and reacting the right way to keep you safe. So many crashes are down to an assumption being made about what another driver will do or is doing that turns out to be wrong.
Dark bike (maybe without lights), dark helmet... what's to see... it's quite easy that the sun was in the wrong place, a tree behind the biker was blocking and breaking up the perception or the driver simply glanced at his speedo at the wrong moment or looked to see what the car infront/behind was doing.
Whether it's riding a bike or driving a car fast that video show's the danger of excess speed & other road users not expecting it.
Will make me think the next time I'm about to boot it on such roads.
I'm not a traffic accident analyst by any means but there is blame on both sides. Given the speed the bike was going and the passing manouvere on the small hatch the driver might have not seen it at all until it was too close. Imagine driving up to the r turn, you look in your mirrors, look ahead (bike still passing so possibly not obvious on first look), look up your destination turn road, look back, bang at that speed. Really really sobering though. That paper on why bikes aren't seen written by that fighter pilot gives a great explanation probably relevant to this. Going that speed on an open road is high risk, higher than going slower, higher than doing it on a track. Very sobering though.
err, 97 in a 60. That is excessive in every way, including the law 🙄the speed he was doing was not IMO excessive.
wonder how the car drivers life has changed...
err, 97 in a 60. That is excessive in every way, including the law
I'm well aware. However, I still disagree. But I doubt 99% of people on here will agree with me... but I can accept that.
That paper on why bikes aren't seen written by that fighter pilot gives a great explanation probably relevant to this.
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/
That paper on why bikes aren't seen written by that fighter pilot gives a great explanation probably relevant to this
What @NZCol says
Bike has his headlight on (You can see it reflecting in the car numberplate) No sun visible. No shadows. It takes 4 seconds for the car to start the turn after the bike overtakes the hatchback. Count that out when next you are driving. For me that is a [i]long[/i] time not to see something straight ahead of you. It doesn't take 4 seconds to glance at a speedo or in your mirror.I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand what it is some people do when they drive.
weeksyI don't want to get into a peeing competition about speeds and stuff, but the speed he was doing was not IMO excessive
In general i agree, but i think the rider, when approaching a junction with a car, clearly about to "potentially" turn across his path should have reduced his speed considerably.
Ok, the accident is technically 100% the car drivers fault (before you start any maneuver, you must be sure your path is clear, irrespective of the conditions involved). I suspect the driver didn't even see the bike, or completely failed to judge the bikes speed accurately.
Unfortunately, we give driving licences to pretty much anybody. People who take over 10 attempts to pass their test are given a licence, and frankly, those people can't drive for sh*t, and there are many many more like them. Every day i see people driving cars very poorly, through a combination of inattention and a lack of skills, and our focus on just "speed" and reliance on machine justice has not helped prevent exactly this kind of accident.
Because of this the onus on staying safe does unfortunately move, to some extent, the the individual, and considering that some idiot may be about to pull out in front of you is a pretty plain case of this.
Unfortunately, imo, we are also not nearly tough enough on drivers and road users who cause accidents, injuries and deaths, however they are caused.
weeksy - Member
Dark bike (maybe without lights), dark helmet... what's to see... it's quite easy that the sun was in the wrong place, a tree behind the biker was blocking and breaking up the perception or the driver simply glanced at his speedo at the wrong moment or looked to see what the car infront/behind was doing.
Rightly or wrongly....this +1.
God knows how many times I have been pulled out on in my car, by people who then give you that apologetic, sorry didn't see you shrug (or swear at you as it's obviously your fault). And I tend to drive with my light on in anything other than bright conditions as my car is dull grey, so I'm aware that it might blend in.
I've been reversed into twice by women in car parks who 'didn't see me' or hear the sound of my horn.
Only a couple of weekends ago, I drove up to Leeds and had two people almost pull into the side of me as I overtook them on the A1.
Very little surprises me now with regards to people's observation when driving.
That is also the reason that I cycle with light on when on the road the majority of the time; any method of making my self more noticeable to others.....
Always surprises me (or deosn't anymore, should I say) when I see roadies out at dusk, dressed in black rapha blending into the road like some kind of invisible ninja cult....
It's horrible to watch and the fault is irrelevant but at 97 on a busy road he clearly had no regard for the safety of anyone else.
Seriously! 97mph on a single carriageway road, in traffic, while passing a junction is not excessive. You are entitled to your opinion but I hope you don't drive anywhere near me.but the speed he was doing was not IMO excessive.