My wife rents a top floor room in a block of offices owned and ran by a charitty (if that makes a difference). Came to work the other day to find the guttering/roof outside had leaked leading to brown watre marks on the ceiling and walls and some of the plaster coming off.

She think she’s responsible for repairing the room, but I don’t think that’s the case. I would think that responsibility for upkeep of the external parts of the building and keeping it watertight is on the landlord. Any damage caused by failings in this is their responsibility to sort?

anyone any experience in this area?

thanks

anyone any experience in this area?

Nope, so here we go !

unless there’s something very odd in the terms of her agreement, then I’m with you. Fair enough if she causes damage internally but this is a problem that presumably she can’t even address from within the space she rents, let alone cause (or prevent)

This is what logic would suggest. just thought I’d check if there are any odd rules. Nothing in her tennancy contract, so I’ll sort it. 🙂

We had something similar in our office. Landlord sent his handyman along to fix it. As above I think it would be a very strange lease that had the occupant responsible for that.

will depend on the terms of the lease – unlikely to be the tenants responsibility if she is only renting part of a building though.

ok, started chatting to the landlord.

first up came this clause:

The Landlord shall have no liability whatsoever to the tenant for any loss, damage or injury to the Tenant, the Tenants property or the property or person of any visitors or employees of the Tenant or the Tenants business whether caused by or arising from fire or water damage.

There is no mention of who is responsible for upkeep and maintenance of the external building as a whole either, although the landlord has instigated repairs which may suggest acceptance of liability.

I think that, if they have responsibility for the building and there has been a leak, then it’s not been maintained sufficiently and they should put right the damage done?

However, I’m also thinking that if we were to get a quote, and it wasn’t much to sort, it may hep the landlord to not put the rent up by much next year…:-s

How could the tenant be responsible for fixing the wall if they’re not responsible for fixing the guttering and roof? She’d get the wall replastered ad be back in the same situation a week later when it leaked again.

The landlord will be responsible for the roof and guttering. The roof and guttering have failed, causing damage to the office that is being rented. The person with responsibility for the roof and guttering is liable for the damage caused by the roof and guttering leaking.

Same as if you were in a block of flats and your upstairs neighbours poured 50 gallons of water through their floorboards. They’d be responsible for the damage to your flat.

However, I’m also thinking that if we were to get a quote, and it wasn’t much to sort, it may hep the landlord to not put the rent up by much next year…:-s

You want your bumps feeling.

You’re paying for a service; to wit, an intact office that doesn’t piss water everywhere. They are not providing that service, therefore they need to sort it out.

And if they’re going to play silly buggers with the rent due to their own failure to maintain their property, move.

first up came this clause:

What that says is, should the water damage cause damage to your wife’s property (“it rained in and now my phone’s broken”), they’re denying liability (whether they can legally do that is another discussion). However it’s wholly irrelevant here, I fail to see why it’s come up at all.

ok, that’s good.

How could the tenant be responsible for fixing the wall if they’re not responsible for fixing the guttering and roof? She’d get the wall replastered ad be back in the same situation a week later when it leaked again.

yes, though I have seen commercial contracts where liability is put solely on the tenant, although these do tend to be on single occupancy leases. I was hoping that this wasnt the csase here, the more I look at it, the more I see that the landlord relying in the above clause is incorrect.

People can put any old rubbish in a contract, doesn’t make it legally binding, they can’t non-liability clause themselves out of legislation.

Would this not be like home insurance – the insurance companies cartel stitch all parties up in collusion ? I mean, you claim on yours the landlord claims on his and they sort it out.

sorry, re read taht, the walls are not the tenants property, they are the landlords.

got it now..

It’s up to the landlord to sort out the fabric of the building (including the mucky interior walls).

As said above, the clause above just refers to the tenant’s (etc) property.

Your wife should probably have separate insurance to cover any sort of damage to equipment in this case.

Edit: cross post, I see you’ve got it now 😛

Depends on the terms of her “lease”. Full repairing leases are not uncommon in the commercial office world, however its more likely that it is not a formal lease and just a “license to occupy”?

1. Extension of Lease between (the “Landlord”) and (the “Tenant”)
2. Authorised Representative – name and address
3. Premises – Office (the “Premises”).
4. Permitted use – Neither the premises nor any part of the premises will be used any time during the term of this Lease by the Tenant for any purpose other than the permitted use. No pets or animals are allowed to be kept in or about the Premises or in any common areas in the building containing the Premises.
5. The Tenant agrees to carry on and conduct its business in such manner as to comply with any statute (already or in the future to be passed) or any government department, local authority, other public or competent authority or court of competent jurisdiction (including in relation to health and safety compliance with the proper practice recommended by all appropriate authorities).

6. Commencement date –24 January 2013

7. The Lease as signed on 24 January for three months shall be extended to a minimum period of 1 year. If the Tenant continues to occupy the Premises with the written consent of the Landlord after the expiration or other termination of the term, then, without any further written agreement, the Tenant will be a month to month tenant at a minimum monthly rental equal to Base Rent + 10% and a tenancy from year to year will not be created by implication of law. If the tenant continues to occupy the Premises without the written consent of the Landlord at the expiration or other termination of the term, then, the Tenant will be a Tenant at Will and will pay to the Landlord as liquidated damages and not as rent, an amount equal to twice the Base Rent plus any Additional Rent during the period of such occupancy, accruing from day to day and adjusted pro rata accordingly and a tenancy from month to month or from year to year will not be created by implication of law. This will not preclude the Landlord from taking action for recovery of possession of the Premises.

8. Rent for remaining 9 months of lease is £.
9. Rent deposit – £0 (1 month). To be held by the Landlord without interest. The Landlord will return the Security Deposit to the Tenant at the end of this tenancy, less such deductions as provided in this Lease but no deduction with be made for damage due to reasonable wear and tear. The Tenant may not use the Security Deposit as payment for the Rent. The Security Deposit will be surrendered in the event that the Tenant defaults on the terms of this Lease. In the event that the Tenant cannot fulfil the Lease, they will need to negotiate Terms of Exist with the Landlord of the Property and only then may they then be entitled to return of the deposit.
10. The rent to commence on the commencing date 01 May 2013 and monthly thereafter
11. Throughout the duration of this Lease the Tenant will promptly pay monthly in advance by Bankers Standing Order on or before the 1st day of every month the sum of £
12. Rent review date – 1 December 2013
13. Tenant will be responsible for the payment of Rates also Water & Sewerage charges and pay direct to the relevant authorities. The Tenant should notify these bodies of their occupancy.
14. Tenant will be responsible for internal decoration of the office area that they occupy. At the termination of lease the tenant will restore the decoration to beige painted walls with all holes or damage repaired or filled with flooring being of a standard acceptable to the Landlord.
15. No internal alteration to office without written agreement from Landlord
16. Inside and outside door locks on premises must not be changed without the Landlords permission.
17. No part of the premises to be Sub Let
18. No alternative form of heating i.e. electric fires, convector heaters etc., will be allowed in office.
19. Tenant will have the facility of car parking spaces. Only properly insured motor vehicles may be parked in the Tenants’ space. Appropriate parking permits must be displayed at all times. Vehicles which the Landlord reasonably considers unsightly, noisy, dangerous, improperly insured, inoperable or unlicensed are not permitted in the Tenants’ car park. Parking facilities are provided at the Tenant’s own risk.
20. Tenants are encouraged to use the recycling facilities provided by the landlord, with paper, plastics and glass being separated and taken to the appropriate bins by the tenant. Other rubbish being removed and placed in the green metallic bin. Unusually large quantities of rubbish should be removed from the site by the tenant. Where a skip is required the written permission of the landlord will be required.
21. Tenant will have responsibility of own office and ensuring all lights are out if last to vacate premises, and all outer doors locked.
22. The Landlord shall have no liability whatsoever to the tenant for any loss, damage or injury to the Tenant, the Tenants property or the property or person of any visitors or employees of the Tenant or the Tenants business whether caused by or arising from fire or water damage.
23. If at any time during the currency of this Lease the rent is not paid on date due or unacceptable behaviour in regard of other office users, damage to property, failure to comply with all foregoing clauses, will cause the cessation of Lease within a period of seven days after receipt of letter from Landlord.
24. The Landlord will have no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage caused by or suffered as a business centre or any loss or damage whatsoever or whensoever arising.
25. The Landlord is responsible for the payment of the following utilities and other charges in relation to the Premises: electricity and natural gas.
26. The Tenant is responsible for the payment of the following utilities and other charges in relation to the Premises: water, sewer, telephone, Internet and cable. business rates, insurance of all items in the premises, liability insurance of the premises and other items installed by the tenant with the Landlords consent.
27. The Landlord and the Tenant will complete, sign and date a schedule of condition at the beginning and at the end of this tenancy.
28. At all reasonable times during the Term and any renewal of this Lease, the Landlord and its agents may enter the Premises to make inspections or repairs, or to show the Premises to prospective tenants or purchasers, having given 24 hours prior notice.
29. The Tenant will, at its sole expense, keep and maintain the Premises in good and sanitary condition and repair during the terms of this Lease and any renewal of this Lease.
30. The Tenant will be responsible at its own expense to replace all electric light bulbs, tubes, ballast or fixtures serving the Premises. Low energy lighting and appliances to be used unless otherwise agreed in writing with the Landlord.
31. The Tenant will keep the Premises in good decorative order
32. The Tenant will promptly notify the Landlord of any damage, or of any situation that may significantly interfere with the normal use of the Premises.
33. The Tenant will not make (or allow to be made) any noise or nuisance which, in the reasonable opinion of the Landlord, disturbs the comfort or convenience of other tenants.
34. The Tenant will not engage in any illegal trade or activity on or about the Premises.
35. The Tenant will not keep or have on the Premises any article or thing of a dangerous, flammable or explosive character that might reasonably increase the danger of fire on the Premises or that might be considered hazardous by any responsible insurance company
36. The Tenant will obey all rules and regulations posted by the landlord regarding the use and care of the Building, parking lot and other common facilities that are provided for the use of the Tenant in and around the Building on the Premises.
37. This agreement will be construed in accordance with the governed by the laws of Scotland.

That is the full lease agreement, with the details of landlord and tennant and costs omitted. 🙂

Anything there that looks iffy?

3. Premises – Office (the “Premises”).

I assume that the premises in question are within the building. So they are leasing the space within the building and not the external walls.

correct.
that’s office no x located at x building, x road, town etc..

It’s quite an eye opener looking at the various lease agreements and the vast difference between comercial and housing.

pretty much commercial you can stipulate what you like, as long as you stipulate it and the tenant signs up for it, it’s all hunky dory.

According to the landlords most recent email, the above clause 24 confirms that the tenant is responsible for the room, including the walls, regardless of what the cause is of the damage.

Awesome.

Feeling the love.

Anyone legal we should speak to?

Presumably the Tennant should have contents insurance to cover such things as water damage, repainting walls etc. and the building and heating systems etc are the landlords problem?

No, no, no.

The clause pertains to your wife’s possessions in the rented office space.

I cannot see how that could be read to read in favour of the landlord given the issue.

Fabric of the building will be the responsibility of the landlord hence landlords insurance. Your wife should have insurance for her work and work items.

If her possessions became damagespd as a result of say water ingress then it would be for her insurer to take up with the landlord/landlords insurance.

I digress.

Water ingress from whatever* should not be her responsibility.

*Poor building upkeep, natural disaster, act of God etc.

Do you mean 14?

“14. Tenant will be responsible for internal decoration of the office area that they occupy. At the termination of lease the tenant will restore the decoration to beige painted walls with all holes or damage repaired or filled with flooring being of a standard acceptable to the Landlord.”

I would take this to being any damage or alterations the tenant has caused.

Damage due to something external should be covered by the landlords insurance. If they don’t have any then tough luck on them.

22. The Landlord shall have no liability whatsoever to the tenant for any loss, damage or injury to the Tenant, the Tenants property or the property or person of any visitors or employees of the Tenant or the Tenants business whether caused by or arising from fire or water damage.

Just covers them for your wifes property etc and is why you need contents insurance.

24. The Landlord will have no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage caused by or suffered as a business centre or any loss or damage whatsoever or whensoever arising.

again this means they will not be liable to any damage to your business eg if you have to turn down work due to a problem and IMO doesnt cover anything to do with them not repairing the structure of the building.

29. The Tenant will, at its sole expense, keep and maintain the Premises in good and sanitary condition and repair during the terms of this Lease and any renewal of this Lease.

This one might screw you, depends if you are renting the office or the whole building.

Sounds like they are trying to get out of it. CAB for you I guess, also try the council.

Worst case fill it yourself, paint it and get out quick.

Solicitor if you’re that bothered – in honesty as long as the fault that caused the issue has been put right to satisfaction it would be easier just to sort the interior fabric yourselves. Commercial leases are very different to residential in how problems are resolved like this, although the basic premise is the same that a contract is a contract there’s little help available to you, so even if you’re in the right its costly to sort.

The wording is a bit vague, but basically the landlord won’t repair the internal damage and you have to hand it back as you took it so you may as well get it sorted as you’ll have to at some point. If it’s a few hundred quid it’s less than it would cost you to pursue and probably get nowhere and if it’s more put an insurance claim in. I’d read that above as it was down to you to sort the interior, just make sure the problem has been rectified first.

Count yourself lucky you don’t have to worry about delapidations short of some paint and a new carpet…

Move.

24. The Landlord will have no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage caused by or suffered as a business centre or any loss or damage whatsoever or whensoever arising.

This clause is irrelevant. It’s excluding the landlord’s liability for damage, and is intended to exclude lability where a tenant suffers a loss, e.g. the tenant’s property is damaged by water leaking into the building, or the tenant is unable to trade or carry on its business from the premises. e.g. due to the leased premises being damaged. However, it’s meaningless to refer to this clause in this context*: the landlord is not liable to itself for damage to its own property (the building, including the plaster etc.).

* Unless you are at cross purposes in your communications with the landlord, and the landlord thinks you are claiming they are liable for damage to your office contents and loss of trade etc.

If you are dealing with a very small charity (and these are their sole premises), I would be concerned that you might be dealing with someone who is out of their depth in managing the premises and handling an event like like this. Any large charity should have people responsible for building maintenance, insurance and legal issues, who would be used to dealing with type of event, and used to dealing with tenants in this situation.

It sounds as though the landlord is not submitting a claim to their building insurer, because if they did the claim should include the damaged plaster etc. in the office, and instead are trying to get you to pay for the damage.

I didn’t see any reference to the landlord insuring the building in that list. Maybe they thought the tenant would insure the building and haven’t got any?

Wouldn’t matter – the demised area is just the area the tenant is in so the landlord wouldnt have any liability to repair the tenants office space. It can even be grey on the liability to repair the building fabric if it’s not in the lease. Landlords insurance doesn’t really come into it in this situation.

Without express terms in a lease to state the landlord was liable for repairs to the tenants area they won’t be liable. A lot of what’s posted above might apply to residential but commercial falls under different laws where the landlord has very different responsibilities outside of the terms of the lease. Managed, shared office space can be better for this but is often not, and generally anything that’s not expressly covered in a lease is a risk and needs insuring against or you run the risk of putting the problem right yourself.

Not a lawyer but a commercial leaseholder. Just noticed its Scottish though – don’t know if things are different up there.

That lease has all the signs of being “DIY’d” either by someone in the charity with the aid of the interweb or possibly a lawyer who doesn’t usually deal in leases trying to keep things very simple. As with most commercial contracts what it says will only really matter if one or both of you are willing to fall our over it big time – I usually find a rational grown up discussion gets to some sort of agreement.

For what it is worth I expect they will say that Clause 14 says repairs to decor are not their responsibility, even if caused through their fault (Clause 24) and that your wife needs to fix it (Clauses 29 and 31). Presumably your wife has a company lawyer (who she should have consulted before signing a lease!) or at least a legal advice line via FSB or IoD or similar who would suggest an action. However unless the damage is really bad its either £500 for a painter and plasterer to tart it up or an afternoon of her (or your!) time and £50 of materials depending on if she is more time or cash poor.

the landlord wouldnt have any liability to repair the tenants office space.

The landlord may have excluded liability for damage to anything and everything under the sun, but it’s the landlord’s building, and it’s part of the landlord’s building that has been damaged. So my starting point in dealing with them would be that it’s up to the landlord to pay for the repairs to their own property.

Landlords insurance doesn’t really come into it in this situation.

Water damage is a standard insurance peril, and precisely the sort of thing for which a landlord would be expected to make a claim. If the landlord does not want to claim (or does not have insurance), that is their choice, but if I were the tenant I would not accept the bill being sent to me instead.

generally anything that’s not expressly covered in a lease is a risk and needs insuring against or you run the risk of putting the problem right yourself.

There can be some limited variability between what different insurers will cover under a contents policy vs. a buildings policy, but the rough rule of thumb is that if it’s something that you would take with you when you vacated ther property, then it would be classed as contents. I would not expect a contents insurer to agree to pay for damage to the fabric of the building where the policyholder/tenant did not cause the damage by its own negligence. A tenant’s contents insurer will not allow their policy to be interpreted as somehow also fulfilling the function of a buildings insurance policy for the landlord on the cheap, no matter how many clauses the landlord might insert in the lease to make the tenant liable for any damage to any part of the building.

(It is apparently not the case here that the tenant has a full repairing and insuring lease, in which case they would then have to arrange the buildings insurance, in addition to their own contents insurance.)

The exterior will be part of the “common areas” and maintained by the l/l and recharged through the service charge, much like the maintenance of the central plant. It is the landlords responsibility to maintain this, and I would be asking to see the service report/invoice for the previous gutter clean. If they have failed to maintain this service, then I would be looking for them to repair. Be careful it’s not just the managing agent trying it on (they would normally be responsible for arranging the maintenance and collecting the service charge).
In my experience landlords are petrified of losing a tenant (due to the speculative construction of so many commercial buildings), remember that you are the customer. There are comanies set up to challenge service charges, or a consulting engineer familiar with FM could help.

Without express terms in a lease to state the landlord was liable for repairs to the tenants area they won’t be liable. A lot of what’s posted above might apply to residential but commercial falls under different laws where the landlord has very different responsibilities outside of the terms of the lease. Managed, shared office space can be better for this but is often not, and generally anything that’s not expressly covered in a lease is a risk and needs insuring against or you run the risk of putting the problem right yourself.

This seems to be the gist of it. I was talking to my boss about it yesterday, as he lets out part of one of our offices. He basically said if it isn’t spelt out in an agreement, it’s a grey area to figure out resonsibility and even though they have inspected the gutters, which are OK, and made some repairs to the outside wall render, this does not constitue the landlord accepting responsibility for the repair of failed external weatherproofing.

We will probably end up getting it sorted, as much as we can. The lease is up for renewal in March. We will tackle this more then.

we’re also calling a tenant meeting, as there’s about a dozen tenants in the building. I doubt they know they were agreeing to this.

Thing is, the rent is cheap, really cheap, so much so that my wife can run her business at break even or make a small profit by working only a couple of days a week, which siuts us fine as it keeps her in some work and active whilst managing her chronic fatigue.