Andrew, have you ever experienced class prejudice? If so, did it feel “real”, or a construct simply used to perpetuate an unequal society, and therefore of no consequence?

To save you the bother of scrolling up the page and actually reading what I said, for the fifteenth time, for the hard of reading, the effects of people’s belief in these fake categories are real even though the categories are not. Shit, have people really forgotten what false consciousness is? Thatcherism really did a number on people’s heads, huh?

Example: Man X sees man A and, because of his perception of man A’s ‘race’, he lamps him. The action is real but does that make man X’s perception of man A correct? Of course it doesn’t. Racism is not proof of ‘race’.

Andrew, I find your arguments eloquently presented. However, as far as I understand from your position and the phrasing of your posts, that you believe that race is a false category?
Surely this cannot be true as there are clearly physiological differences between races, not the ones fabricated by the eugenics advocates of the last century, but real ones.
Some ignorant people choose to use these real differences to promulgate hatred based upon them but it does not make them any less real.
Hope I got the gist of your argument correctly.

oh ok, i dont think we really disagree basically andrew, i like people and dont go out of my way to be harmfull to small animals or my fellow man.

my terminology might be off, but my point was basically this:

I have quite a culturally diverse family.

There are very different ways of viewing the world used by different groups within my family, which is a direct result of their life experiences, which is also a result of their race and the predjudice/tolerance they have experienced.

it would be awesome if we could live in a perfect world devoid of all racial or cultural influence, but until we do, it is best to at least accept that these cultural and racial differences (caused by historical experience) exist to be able to communicate effectively with the people that have experienced them.

that was not to my recollection your position in the past.

I have quite frankly, not the foggiest idea what your referring to 😕 Yes sadly links/searches to the old forum can’t be made, but any clues about the thread or topic to jolt my memory ? My position on racism in relation to different social classes has always been the same, and I’m sorry if you got the impression that it was in some way different.

Is there any chance though that you would accept that the BNP have been gifted with a mandate neglected by the big three and the ineffectual/non existent british “left”?

Absolutely. I have always accepted that the BNP exploits genuine grievances which, particularly those in the lower social classes, suffer. Although I would not place the recent surge in BNP support down to all 3 main parties. The responsibility lies solely with the Labour Party imo. It is they who have in recent years, completely turned their backs on their traditional core voters, and it is in their heartlands where the BNP have made the greatest gains. I could go on endlessly about that, but it’s a whole new subject imo.

But whilst responsibility for the growth in support for the BNP lies in general, with the Labour Party, I have always believed that it lies in particular with the Left. It is they who gripped with an overwhelming fear of yet another election defeat, gave Tony Blair and New Labour a free hand to disenfranchise and turn the Labour Party’s back on traditional working class core voters. Preferring instead to serve the interests of big business.

.

Norton – I had assumed that when you suggested that everyone should read party election manifestos you meant, well, you know – ‘party election manifestos’. Which surprised a bit, because I’m not sure whether I have ever read a complete party election manifesto from cover to cover, of any party – certainly if I have, it’s likely to have been a party which I felt I would be supporting. But it’s now occurred to me that you might have been referring to election leaflets ?

btw I reckon reckon you’ve got p1ss-poor judgement if you think that I come across ‘as a prize fascist’. I don’t think Adolf Hitler would be awarding me any prizes if he heard the sort of stuff I was saying ……but there you go.

the effects of people’s belief in these fake categories are real

And that differs from reality, how?

To save you the bother of thinking angry man, I’ll suggest that it’s very easy to claim that class differences do not exist,when the effects of class differences do not affect you. When they do, “class differences” are real.

I think you misunderstand what people mean by “class” Andrew. In Britain I suppose for some people it’s a “breeding” thing. Nonsense of course. But what we are talking about is the reality of a situation similar to an Tribal system. You come from the right family/background ,or you don’t. That’s the demarcation, and that is real in British society even if you are lucky enough to be ignorant of it.

To save you the bother of thinking angry man,

Angry? Quite the opposite. But, please, spare me the pain of thinking and think for me, go on, educate me…

it’s very easy to claim that class differences do not exist,when the effects of class differences do not affect you.

It’s also *much* easier to know that the assumptions upon which your unfair treatment are based are entirely fictional. Perhaps if the differences were real then I’d be better disposed to accepting any ‘different’ treatment but because I’ll claim to be as good, bad, or indifferent as any other person then I know that any prejudicial treatment I get is on the basis of perceived and not actual differences.

Or are you saying that the basis of class prejudice is real? That ‘working class’ people really *don’t* deserve equal treatment?

uhh, hang on…

In Britain I suppose for some people it’s a “breeding” thing. Nonsense of course. […] You come from the right family/background ,or you don’t.

Nonsense of course.

That’s my freaking point! It’s nonsense, it’s crap, shit, dross, a fairytale but one that people chose to believe in, to sediment themselves, to become ossified in the cliff-face of class, to know ‘their’ place. On the basis of what? Convention, tradition and other myths and legends. And you know what? It’s much easier to fight a corrupt and unequal system which you know to be based upon a a pack of lies.

Normally I sit back and spectate at the usual working class/middle class stand-offs – furious stereotypes fuelling further mistrust and mutual loathing and self-hate but sometimes I think of the 10% that own the majority of the wealth and the 90% that hate each other and themselves on account of who ‘they’ are and who ‘we’ are and I feel like saying something.

you are lucky enough to be ignorant of it.

Well ignorance is bliss but this is just sheer bloody-mindedness on my part. Stereotypes and other ways of categorising people are just lazy thinking; maybe i’m too tight to spring for a DS and a Brain-training cart and this is the budget option for staving off alzheimers eh? Or maybe there’s far fewer in the ‘old left’ way of thinking than i thought. Maybe I should just crack a tinny/pop a cork/shoot up/light da chalice widd ma bredrin or whatever stereotyped route to oblivion my type is expected to follow and accept that it’s like that, it’s just the way it is?

the 90% that hate each other and themselves on account of who ‘they’ are and who ‘we’ are

Are you p1ssed ?

just out of interest, who would you guys vote for if you was 1 part irish, 1 part romany and a bit of scottish thrown in.

LOL @ ton ! ….. best post on this thread, imo.

Sorry I can’t help you with your dilemma on who to vote for, though.

Mr Agreeable – Member

I’m no racist; I’m not keen on Polish or Muslims

You sound like a muddled sort of chap.

I find Islam threatening to ‘my’ way of life and freedom of thought and existence. But I understand/studied their backgrounds and beliefs. I understand/tolerate them from learning from them but I don’t agree with their belief and inequalites to people.

I don’t have hatred towards them or anyone. Maybe the odd Nazi ;O)

ton – the one on the right

I have a heart condition, if you hit me it’s murder

It’s also *much* easier to know that the assumptions upon which your unfair treatment are based are entirely fictional

Actually, it’s not. It’s rather irritating. Strangely enough, us plebs know this already.

because I’ll claim to be as good, bad, or indifferent as any other person then I know that any prejudicial treatment I get is on the basis of perceived and not actual differences.

Cool. Tell me how you feel when you don’t get a job or can’t afford training, your school is shit or your mother has to skin chickens for a living. Your “percieved and not actual differences” really do tot up to **** all in the grand scheme of things. Do you think anyone gives a shit about what someone from the lower orders “perceives” about their inherited position in the class strata?

Hey, I’m royalty. I “perceive myself to be royalty”. Am I royalty?

I don’t think you get it andrew. To make things simple for you I’ll let you know that I think the class system is a bad thing. I’ll let you know that to me it’s obvious it exists. I’ll try and impress on you that I think it’s a bad thing. I’ll suggest again that you have not a clue what we are talking about, as you seem comfortable with denialist social theory constructs. You seem to be under the impression that to ignore a situation is enough to make it not,and never,to have existed.

The fact is however, that although most of us peasants are fully aware of the nonsensical construct of the society we have no choice but to inhabit, it’s there.

you know what? It’s much easier to fight a corrupt and unequal system which you know to be based upon a a pack of lies.

But first you have to be aware of it’s existence.

just out of interest, who would you guys vote for if you was 1 part irish, 1 part romany and a bit of scottish thrown in.

You’ve been stalking me, haven’t you ?

Right after all of that do we vote BNP or not?
Glazed over after page 2.

😯

Just answer the question Oxboy.

I don’t think you get it andrew. To make things simple for you I’ll let you know that I think the class system is a bad thing. I’ll let you know that to me it’s obvious it exists.

Sorry mate, I think you don’t get it. You’re choosing to ignore the fact that I’m saying that the effects of people’s belief in the class system are real. I could swap tinker and miner family stories with you if you like but I’m none too fussed to do so – I’ve not made a fetish out of mine.

How did Funkadelic put it all that time ago? Free your mind and your ass will follow. Marx and Engels said pretty much the same thing but without the funk.

Andrew, I do understand what you are saying. Knowing that receiving different treatment is because of an irrational prejudice does not change the treatment that is recieved. That is what I am saying.

Basic Marx.

and

Marx and Engels said pretty much the same thing

Twice you mention Marx on this thread to back up your argument andrew, why ?

I would hardly profess to be an expert on the writings of Marx but, I am fully aware that ‘class consciousness’ is at the very heart of Marx’s writings.

Yes, he did clearly state that under primitive communism classes did not exist, and they are therefore not natural.

However, he also very clearly stated that ‘classes’ played an absolutely central and indispensable role in human society.

In fact, he went so far as to describe the whole history of the whole world, in just one sentence. That sentence was the first sentence of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto :

“The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles“

How that in anyway fits with your original comment in which you challenge me for pointing out the different characteristics of different social classes by saying, quote : “Middle class, working class, it’s all a load of shit.” is quite frankly beyond me.

Are you just taking the p1ss by quoting Marx ?

Or you some sort of intellectual Marxist who wants to enter deep and absurd polemics about the meaning of words such as ‘real’ or ‘false’.

If the latter is true, then I’m not interested mate.

TBH I lost interest quite a while back – just wondered what you’re playing at.

As a casual observer of this thread I suggest that Andrew and Ernie sit together somewhere and have a nice chat over a cup of tea and a couple of biscuits. Then you’ll realise that you’re both nice chaps which are pretty much 100% in agreement with each other, but have got stuck on a minor misundering on the semantics of the word ‘real’. 🙂