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Watch out the BNP are about!!

139 posts & 60 voices | Started 3 years ago by curtisthecat | Latest reply from IanMunro

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andrew - Member

And until we live in a non-racial, classless world, I'm not going to stick my head in the sand pretending that class and racial differences don't exist.

Fair enough. I'll carrying on treating everyone I meet in the same way. You carry on treating them according to class and racial differences based, presumably, on what 'race' or 'class' they belong to. That's your lookout. We live in a nominal democracy and like a lilly-livered liberal (which I'm not) I'll defend your right to be prejudiced in your treatment of people even though I find your pre-judgement to be a load of bollocks.

I did not at anytime mention 'biological classes' as you put it - you did that.

You keep talking about how real they are and, if you're saying I'm wrong to say that they only exist in discourse, in talk, then how else can they be 'real' other than in innate qualities that people have? Like I said, the effects of people believing in these categories cause massive injustice and inequality and as long as people carry on in that belief and act according to it then that injustice and inequality will continue.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Thank you for your last post andrew.

I find it hugely reassuring that you feel your argument is so weak that you have to firstly, resort to lies and pretend I said that I 'treated' white people differently to black people when I meet them.

And secondly, you feel the need to resort to repeatedly asking a question which I've already answered, ie "how else can they be 'real' other than in innate qualities that people have?"

So let me repeat the same question with the same answer :

The experiences of a white person are often quite different to the experiences of a black person. These are not 'false' differences - they are very real differences. Pretending otherwise is completely unproductive.

Do you need me to elaborate ? Do you need me to talk about differences in power and wealth ? Do you need me to talk about differences in educational opportunities ? Do need me to talk about differences in material wealth ? Do need me to talk about differences in experiences of prejudices ? Which is the bit that you don't understand ?

I take it andrew, that you are neither black nor economically disadvantaged, and therefore feel that you can afford the luxury of sitting back and spouting intellectual drivel which claims that it's all just 'a figment of people's imagination'.

In the meantime, I will continue to oppose prejudice and injustice by recognising that there are real problems, caused by real differences.

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I presume all previous posters have familiarised themselves with the BNP manifesto before coming to their conclusions

A classic example of what I suggested earlier. Recognising the unacceptability of openly declaring themselves to be racist, or urging people to vote BNP, the poster instead, urges people to read 'the BNP manifesto before coming to their conclusions'.

No mate, I don't need to read the BNP manifesto before I able to decide whether or not I'm a fascist. Anymore than I need to read Chairman Mao's 'Little Red Book' to before deciding whether or not I'm a Maoist, nor Mein Kampf before .....

And if you think that "....outright criminality exhibited by our current elected representatives far outweighs anything the minority parties have been guilty of to date" then you know bugger-all about the BNP.

Posted 3 years ago #
timdrayton - Member

hmmmm dr alice!

but anyway

So, um, racial differences are real are they? That puts you squarely in the BNP camp

it does make me chortle when the privaleged, white, and middleaged, rear up wide eyed and winnying, tapping their keyboards with their high horse hooves, in protest of even the thought that races are in anyway different to each other.

People are different, this is obvious, it doesnt have to be negative does it?

stating the obvious doesnt make you hitler does it?

Posted 3 years ago #
Norton - Member

I would have thought that reading a party manifesto before coming to your conclusion is the essence of what democracy is about - or perhaps, as I expect, the poster simply prefers his own flavour of totalitarianism to democracy...

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

I would have thought that reading a party manifesto before coming to your conclusion is the essence of what democracy is about

Yes. I agree.

I'd also suggest googling the party, and it's main players.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Not really Norton. I wouldn't expect 1% of the electorate to have read all the election manifestos of all the candidates presented to them at an election. Despite that, I don't think you can conclude that democracy hasn't 'in essence' been served.

As far as the reading the BNP manifesto is concerned, the BNP is fundamentally a racist party. Racism goes to the very heart of their core beliefs. Therefore their policies on things such as housing, the NHS, employment, etc, are completely irrelevant, if you are not a racist.

If you are not a racist, the BNP are not electable.

HTH

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

I wouldn't expect 1% of the electorate to have read all the election manifestos of all the candidates presented to them at an election.

One in a hundred? I'd disagree.(Using the same anecdotal and unempirical measurement as yourself.)

However, I'm glad to see that you now accept that the working class tend to be much less Racist than the middle class. That's not what you were saying last year.

The BNP are a fundamentally racist party, that's beyond question.

However, they utilise issues that affect many people in Britain, that the Big Three pretend do not exist, as the big three are in the pocket of large business and the European project. Personally I'm a little dissapointed that for the last 20 years the "left" has appeared to focus it's energies on identity politics to consolidate support to the detriment of what was initially in theory it's natural constituency. I personally don't see why they saw it as an either/or option.

For me, the BNP are unelectable. But some of the issues targeted in their policies, are relevant.

Posted 3 years ago #
zaskar - Inactive

ernie_lynch -You nailed it there.

If people are racist they will vote BNP but I still get my head bitten off and yes some racists will vote elsewhere.

If people don't have the intelligence to read or understand a basic manifesto-should they be allowed to vote? yes no?

Everyone has an opionion no matter their basic skills. But as the leaked list shows-there were racists employed everywhere regadless their intelligence and background.

Whats funny is the hatred among the some of the ethnic group to other ethnic groups.

Too much hatred and not enough love in the world...peace.

Posted 3 years ago #
andrew - Member

pretend I said that I 'treated' white people differently to black people when I meet them.

But hang on...

I'm not going to stick my head in the sand pretending that class and racial differences don't exist.

So, um, you believe in racial and class differences, don't "stick your head in the sand," but er, treat everyone the same even though you think they're different. (Except the middle classes who you expect to be more racist according to your earlier post). Listen mate, you're not coming across very clear here at all - you don't seem to so sure about all this.

Oh, and by the way

resort to lies and pretend I said that I 'treated' white people differently to black people when I meet them.

I didn't mention 'black' and 'white'. You filled in those gaps pretty quickly yourself.

So let me repeat the same question with the same answer :

The experiences of a white person are often quite different to the experiences of a black person. These are not 'false' differences - they are very real differences. Pretending otherwise is completely unproductive.

You know that bit where I said the effects of 'race' are real but the categories aren't? That's what that means. You're actually saying the same thing as me now.

Do you need me to elaborate ? Do you need me to talk about differences in power and wealth ? Do you need me to talk about differences in educational opportunities ? Do need me to talk about differences in material wealth ? Do need me to talk about differences in experiences of prejudices ?

And there you go again. The effects of the categories of 'race'. You either didn't read what I wrote or missed the point. If you missed the point fair enough.

I will continue to oppose prejudice and injustice by recognising that there are real problems, caused by real differences.

There are real problems, caused by false differences. Basic Marx. Fight the real problems but if you fetishize ideological constructs as real you maintain the reality of their effects. If you do want to do away with their effects then believing the reality of the categories to be concrete is counterproductive. If you want to keep the effects but appear to fight them then carry on as you are.

it does make me chortle when the privaleged, white, and middleaged, rear up wide eyed and winnying, tapping their keyboards with their high horse hooves, in protest of even the thought that races are in anyway different to each other.

People are different, this is obvious, it doesnt have to be negative does it?

stating the obvious doesnt make you hitler does it?

I'm please you're having a little a chortle to yourself. You carry on chortling in your world of 'Negroes', 'Caucasians', 'Mongoloids,' and so on. If you ever step out of that way of thinking you've got a whole other century's worth of thought to get to today. Good luck.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

I'm glad to see that you now accept that the working class tend to be much less Racist than the middle class. That's not what you were saying last year.

That's what I've always said. I have also always said that working class people tend to be more open about their racism than middle class people.

.

Andrew - "You're actually saying the same thing as me now."

I'm not saying anything now which is anyway different to what I have previously said. Every post which I have posted, is completely consistent with my previous posts - go and check. And I'll remind you that it was you who challenged me

Posted 3 years ago #
Norton - Member

As you obviously think it dangerous for the population to make their own mind up rather than have people like you tell them what to think and as you are quite happy to label people on this forum who you know nothing about as racist simply for disgreeing with you, I'm afraid Ernie "mate" you do come across yourself as a prize fascist and condescending attitudes like yours are exactly why people will vote BNP.

Posted 3 years ago #
timdrayton - Member

Andrew, what are you talking about?

races of human beings are different in appearance, behaviour and physiology, this apparent to anyone with eyes, ears and the ability to read is it not?

again i say that this is not a negative comment, or one meant to alienate anyone, but the deliberate ignorance of this fact is a sure way to begin alienating people?

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Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

I'm glad to see that you now accept that the working class tend to be much less Racist than the middle class. That's not what you were saying last year.

That's what I've always said. I have also always said that working class people tend to be more open about their racism than middle class people.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment above, that was not to my recollection your position in the past. Last years forum is unquotable, unfortunately.

Is there any chance though that you would accept that the BNP have been gifted with a mandate neglected by the big three and the ineffectual/non existent british "left"?

It's a shame I know, but part of me really wants to see the BNP do really well and upset the pseudo liberal types that love the vibrancy of cheap imported labour and the freedom from paying to train people in this country to do the same job (with a living wage! radical, eh?).

The problem is that it's going to be other disadvantaged people that will reap the consequences of this. Another failure of the "identity politics" so precious to the British "left".

RESPECT.

(you gottit, didn't you?)

Posted 3 years ago #
andrew - Member

I'm not saying anything now which is anyway different to what I have previously said. Every post which I have posted, is completely consistent with my previous posts - go and check. And I'll remind you that it was you who challenged me

I did, you responded with,

Classes aren't 'false categories' they are real - as real as racial categories.

I strongly disagree with that but recognise that false categories create real inequalities - that is the purpose they serve, to allow the different treatment of people based on their difference. In fact, way back up the page I was saying, "Just as the effects of 'race' are real, the effects of 'class' are also real but that doesn't make the categories real ." At the time you were banging on about the reality of race and the reality of class; it's just up above that you've started talking about the effects of the categories - what I'd been doing from the off.

There you go, I checked.

In a nutshell:
You - racial and class differences are real but it is wrong for people's lives and expectations to be different on the basis of it.
Me - racial and class differences are false categories used to divide people in order to better rule them and perpetuate an unequal society.

MrDrayton:
races of human beings

Fail in the first sentence. One race. The human race.

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

Andrew, have you ever experienced class prejudice? If so, did it feel "real", or a construct simply used to perpetuate an unequal society, and therefore of no consequence?

Posted 3 years ago #
andrew - Member

Andrew, have you ever experienced class prejudice? If so, did it feel "real", or a construct simply used to perpetuate an unequal society, and therefore of no consequence?

To save you the bother of scrolling up the page and actually reading what I said, for the fifteenth time, for the hard of reading, the effects of people's belief in these fake categories are real even though the categories are not. Shit, have people really forgotten what false consciousness is? Thatcherism really did a number on people's heads, huh?

Example: Man X sees man A and, because of his perception of man A's 'race', he lamps him. The action is real but does that make man X's perception of man A correct? Of course it doesn't. Racism is not proof of 'race'.

Posted 3 years ago #
rogerthecat - Member

Andrew, I find your arguments eloquently presented. However, as far as I understand from your position and the phrasing of your posts, that you believe that race is a false category?
Surely this cannot be true as there are clearly physiological differences between races, not the ones fabricated by the eugenics advocates of the last century, but real ones.
Some ignorant people choose to use these real differences to promulgate hatred based upon them but it does not make them any less real.
Hope I got the gist of your argument correctly.

Posted 3 years ago #
timdrayton - Member

oh ok, i dont think we really disagree basically andrew, i like people and dont go out of my way to be harmfull to small animals or my fellow man.

my terminology might be off, but my point was basically this:

I have quite a culturally diverse family.

There are very different ways of viewing the world used by different groups within my family, which is a direct result of their life experiences, which is also a result of their race and the predjudice/tolerance they have experienced.

it would be awesome if we could live in a perfect world devoid of all racial or cultural influence, but until we do, it is best to at least accept that these cultural and racial differences (caused by historical experience) exist to be able to communicate effectively with the people that have experienced them.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

that was not to my recollection your position in the past.

I have quite frankly, not the foggiest idea what your referring to Yes sadly links/searches to the old forum can't be made, but any clues about the thread or topic to jolt my memory ? My position on racism in relation to different social classes has always been the same, and I'm sorry if you got the impression that it was in some way different.

Is there any chance though that you would accept that the BNP have been gifted with a mandate neglected by the big three and the ineffectual/non existent british "left"?

Absolutely. I have always accepted that the BNP exploits genuine grievances which, particularly those in the lower social classes, suffer. Although I would not place the recent surge in BNP support down to all 3 main parties. The responsibility lies solely with the Labour Party imo. It is they who have in recent years, completely turned their backs on their traditional core voters, and it is in their heartlands where the BNP have made the greatest gains. I could go on endlessly about that, but it's a whole new subject imo.

But whilst responsibility for the growth in support for the BNP lies in general, with the Labour Party, I have always believed that it lies in particular with the Left. It is they who gripped with an overwhelming fear of yet another election defeat, gave Tony Blair and New Labour a free hand to disenfranchise and turn the Labour Party's back on traditional working class core voters. Preferring instead to serve the interests of big business.

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Norton - I had assumed that when you suggested that everyone should read party election manifestos you meant, well, you know - 'party election manifestos'. Which surprised a bit, because I'm not sure whether I have ever read a complete party election manifesto from cover to cover, of any party - certainly if I have, it's likely to have been a party which I felt I would be supporting. But it's now occurred to me that you might have been referring to election leaflets ?

btw I reckon reckon you've got p1ss-poor judgement if you think that I come across 'as a prize fascist'. I don't think Adolf Hitler would be awarding me any prizes if he heard the sort of stuff I was saying ......but there you go.

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

the effects of people's belief in these fake categories are real

And that differs from reality, how?

To save you the bother of thinking angry man, I'll suggest that it's very easy to claim that class differences do not exist,when the effects of class differences do not affect you. When they do, "class differences" are real.

I think you misunderstand what people mean by "class" Andrew. In Britain I suppose for some people it's a "breeding" thing. Nonsense of course. But what we are talking about is the reality of a situation similar to an Tribal system. You come from the right family/background ,or you don't. That's the demarcation, and that is real in British society even if you are lucky enough to be ignorant of it.

Posted 3 years ago #
andrew - Member

To save you the bother of thinking angry man,

Angry? Quite the opposite. But, please, spare me the pain of thinking and think for me, go on, educate me...

it's very easy to claim that class differences do not exist,when the effects of class differences do not affect you.

It's also *much* easier to know that the assumptions upon which your unfair treatment are based are entirely fictional. Perhaps if the differences were real then I'd be better disposed to accepting any 'different' treatment but because I'll claim to be as good, bad, or indifferent as any other person then I know that any prejudicial treatment I get is on the basis of perceived and not actual differences.

Or are you saying that the basis of class prejudice is real? That 'working class' people really *don't* deserve equal treatment?

uhh, hang on...

In Britain I suppose for some people it's a "breeding" thing. Nonsense of course. [...] You come from the right family/background ,or you don't.

Nonsense of course.

That's my freaking point! It's nonsense, it's crap, shit, dross, a fairytale but one that people chose to believe in, to sediment themselves, to become ossified in the cliff-face of class, to know 'their' place. On the basis of what? Convention, tradition and other myths and legends. And you know what? It's much easier to fight a corrupt and unequal system which you know to be based upon a a pack of lies.

Normally I sit back and spectate at the usual working class/middle class stand-offs - furious stereotypes fuelling further mistrust and mutual loathing and self-hate but sometimes I think of the 10% that own the majority of the wealth and the 90% that hate each other and themselves on account of who 'they' are and who 'we' are and I feel like saying something.

you are lucky enough to be ignorant of it.

Well ignorance is bliss but this is just sheer bloody-mindedness on my part. Stereotypes and other ways of categorising people are just lazy thinking; maybe i'm too tight to spring for a DS and a Brain-training cart and this is the budget option for staving off alzheimers eh? Or maybe there's far fewer in the 'old left' way of thinking than i thought. Maybe I should just crack a tinny/pop a cork/shoot up/light da chalice widd ma bredrin or whatever stereotyped route to oblivion my type is expected to follow and accept that it's like that, it's just the way it is?

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

the 90% that hate each other and themselves on account of who 'they' are and who 'we' are

Are you p1ssed ?

Posted 3 years ago #
ton - Member

just out of interest, who would you guys vote for if you was 1 part irish, 1 part romany and a bit of scottish thrown in.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

LOL @ ton ! ..... best post on this thread, imo.

Sorry I can't help you with your dilemma on who to vote for, though.

Posted 3 years ago #
zaskar - Inactive

Mr Agreeable - Member

I'm no racist; I'm not keen on Polish or Muslims

You sound like a muddled sort of chap.

I find Islam threatening to 'my' way of life and freedom of thought and existence. But I understand/studied their backgrounds and beliefs. I understand/tolerate them from learning from them but I don't agree with their belief and inequalites to people.

I don't have hatred towards them or anyone. Maybe the odd Nazi ;O)

Posted 3 years ago #
timdrayton - Member

ton - the one on the right

I have a heart condition, if you hit me it's murder

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

It's also *much* easier to know that the assumptions upon which your unfair treatment are based are entirely fictional

Actually, it's not. It's rather irritating. Strangely enough, us plebs know this already.

because I'll claim to be as good, bad, or indifferent as any other person then I know that any prejudicial treatment I get is on the basis of perceived and not actual differences.

Cool. Tell me how you feel when you don't get a job or can't afford training, your school is shit or your mother has to skin chickens for a living. Your "percieved and not actual differences" really do tot up to **** all in the grand scheme of things. Do you think anyone gives a shit about what someone from the lower orders "perceives" about their inherited position in the class strata?

Hey, I'm royalty. I "perceive myself to be royalty". Am I royalty?

I don't think you get it andrew. To make things simple for you I'll let you know that I think the class system is a bad thing. I'll let you know that to me it's obvious it exists. I'll try and impress on you that I think it's a bad thing. I'll suggest again that you have not a clue what we are talking about, as you seem comfortable with denialist social theory constructs. You seem to be under the impression that to ignore a situation is enough to make it not,and never,to have existed.

The fact is however, that although most of us peasants are fully aware of the nonsensical construct of the society we have no choice but to inhabit, it's there.

you know what? It's much easier to fight a corrupt and unequal system which you know to be based upon a a pack of lies.

But first you have to be aware of it's existence.

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

just out of interest, who would you guys vote for if you was 1 part irish, 1 part romany and a bit of scottish thrown in.

You've been stalking me, haven't you ?

Posted 3 years ago #
Oxboy - Member

Right after all of that do we vote BNP or not?
Glazed over after page 2.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Just answer the question Oxboy.

Posted 3 years ago #
andrew - Member

I don't think you get it andrew. To make things simple for you I'll let you know that I think the class system is a bad thing. I'll let you know that to me it's obvious it exists.

Sorry mate, I think you don't get it. You're choosing to ignore the fact that I'm saying that the effects of people's belief in the class system are real. I could swap tinker and miner family stories with you if you like but I'm none too fussed to do so - I've not made a fetish out of mine.

How did Funkadelic put it all that time ago? Free your mind and your ass will follow. Marx and Engels said pretty much the same thing but without the funk.

Posted 3 years ago #
Dr Dolittle - Member

Andrew, I do understand what you are saying. Knowing that receiving different treatment is because of an irrational prejudice does not change the treatment that is recieved. That is what I am saying.

Posted 3 years ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Basic Marx.

and

Marx and Engels said pretty much the same thing

Twice you mention Marx on this thread to back up your argument andrew, why ?

I would hardly profess to be an expert on the writings of Marx but, I am fully aware that 'class consciousness' is at the very heart of Marx's writings.

Yes, he did clearly state that under primitive communism classes did not exist, and they are therefore not natural.

However, he also very clearly stated that 'classes' played an absolutely central and indispensable role in human society.

In fact, he went so far as to describe the whole history of the whole world, in just one sentence. That sentence was the first sentence of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto :

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles"

How that in anyway fits with your original comment in which you challenge me for pointing out the different characteristics of different social classes by saying, quote : "Middle class, working class, it's all a load of shit." is quite frankly beyond me.

Are you just taking the p1ss by quoting Marx ?

Or you some sort of intellectual Marxist who wants to enter deep and absurd polemics about the meaning of words such as 'real' or 'false'.

If the latter is true, then I'm not interested mate.

TBH I lost interest quite a while back - just wondered what you're playing at.

Posted 3 years ago #
IanMunro - Member

As a casual observer of this thread I suggest that Andrew and Ernie sit together somewhere and have a nice chat over a cup of tea and a couple of biscuits. Then you'll realise that you're both nice chaps which are pretty much 100% in agreement with each other, but have got stuck on a minor misundering on the semantics of the word 'real'.

Posted 3 years ago #