I couldn’t find a Putin thread so starting one here.

I once read that his negotiating style was to put a knife on the table first, then begin the talking. Looks like he’s just put a knife on the table:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37597075

Also, I always thought of Kaliningrad as an exclave rather than an enclave, but I suppose it depends on whether you are looking at it from the inside or the outside! 🙂

It’s not good, but it’s also not really an escalation- the article says “they could reach Berlin” but Russia already has an enormous strategic nuclear arsenal that can do that, and has done for over 50 years. SO it’s not a new threat as it is when, frinstance, north korea deploys a longer ranged missile than they had previously and expands the area they can threaten.

All feels very familiar though doesn’t it? Very Cold War-y. Still, it’ll make writing the plot to a bond movie a whole lot easier again lol

I read this recently. It’s OK and whilst I’m unsure how factually correct it is, it does give an idea of where Putin came from and a few other famous names e.g. that Chelsea manager. Worth reading….

Suprised its taken this long to get a Putin/Russia thread going given Crimea, Alleppo, US elections, Jets in Western airspace.

I know! I guess that there’s always been a separate thread covering each event as they happened

Current events are making the last 80-90 years feel very palindromic to me. We emerged from the all out madness of WWII then proceeded to build peace and prosperity that seemed to peak between 1989-1994 with the Berlin Wall coming down, Nelson Mandela walking free and apartheid ending, the Oslo peace accords in the Middle East, a glimmer of hope from the Tiananmen Square protests and the U.S. had a solid, effective Democrat for a president. Now everything seems to be backsliding towards madness again- the EU is breaking up, Putin has put Russia back on the war path, Israel-Palestine is as far from peace as it has ever been, South Africa has a completely corrupt president, China is still its oppressively autocratic self and the U.S. seems to be on the verge of electing a genuine crazy person as president. What happened to all that progress we made?!?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KHCNk9BYy4[/video]

So Trump gets into power

Putin lays his cards on table

oooh its going to get lairy

Oh yes…(forward to 11.34)

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glsCBBDBwZw[/video]

Time to put some myths to bed (not picking on you in particular wilburt): –

Crimea

After an American backed coup in Ukraine, citizens of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to reunify with Russia. See here for an analysis of the reunification, and indeed here for what really happened in Ukraine, before the West got fed up with the neo-nazi’s.

Alleppo

I don’t doubt for one second there are zero civilian casualties arising from the Russian campaign, the coverage is so hysterical most are lies, lies, and more lies.

Nor is there any evidence Russia bombed the UN aid convoy. The only ‘evidence’ seems to suggest otherwise.

Please read ”Everything You Hear About Aleppo Is Wrong”

US elections

Once more there is absolutely no evidence of this, just smears and insinuations. Even the boss of the DNI says he doesn’t know who who hacked the DNC.

Jets in Western airspace

You mean Russian jets in international airspace? Or the submarine which wasn’t a sub .. or russian

Alarmist BBC headlines

Ok, so Russia is deploying military hardware within her own borders. How is this any worse than NATO / US missiles being placed along Russia’s border, despite the 1989 “not one inch further” promise?

Russia is now the international boogy-man, with everything being blamed on them (and Putin) in particular. MH17, Trump, ‘Putin poisoned clinton at 911 ceremony’ (ffs!), everything is blamed on Russia / Putin – and whilst not perfect, compared to what the US and Obama does – and I won’t get into that here – he is a saint.

There is no mainstream independent media anymore, just a collection of stenographers mindlessly parroting everything coming from the US state department, it’s pathetic, and now quite boring actually.

[edit]

And here we are, in the time it took me to type that out – more hypocrisy. ffs.

And Hillary Clinton says “Kremlin has weaponized WikiLeaks”

Well, that’s completely convinced me 🙄

A nicely argued point, and if I may say so, a particularly nuanced comment, thank you for the input.

Whilst the sanctons have hurt Putin has invaded and retained Crimea and the war in Eatsern Ukraine rumbles on, he’s truned the war in Syria back in Assad’s favour. Certainly not to be underestimated and he’s far more apppetite for conflict than the vast majority of his opponents. He’s shot down a commercial airliner and in reality what have the world done, pretty much nothing. The French didn’t even want to cancel the aircraft/helicopter carrier order.

Is this evidence based or just propaganda ?
an insight

Estimated to be worth over double the official richest man in the world, bonkers

So Russian jets do not enter UK airspace, but flying long range bombers directly towards UK airspace without submitting flight plans or responding to ATC is not exactly the actions of a nation with overly friendly intentions.

Those links to so called ‘evidence’ are no more or less credible than the BBC or any other news organisation.

Putin is purposely trying to destabilise international politics. Peace does’t afford Russia much Power or kudos in the world, but situations where Russia can exercise it’s military muscle do, so Putin like to ‘mix things up’ a bit. It’s as much to maintain his power base in his own country as anything else to divert the country’s attention to the deteriorating situation in Russia itself. It gets him to the big negotiating tables and improving his image with his own people and the nasty cronies he’s propping up in the world as Obama’s inaction in their eyes makes the ‘old adversary’, the US, look weak. With the depressed gas and oil prices hitting Russian coiffiers hard he needs to stimulate some alternative income and arms is a good money earner – especially if he stimulates some additional demand. Shooting down a passenger jet is a good demonstration and advert for Russian missiles to those nasty dictators around the world to remind them that Russia is still in the market with some capable weaponry, coupled with escalating a conflict or two by propping up a dodgy dictator and stretching out a civil war and cha-ching!

Putin has form. Poisoning Litvinenko for example – but I suppose that was all a hoax too. I’m not suggesting that the Western press is not guilty of the odd exaggeration or reporting situations with a certain amount of bias (but to be fairit is difficult to get a balanced view in a war zone), but the notion that Putin is some form of hard-done by angel and the subject of a global conspiracy is a nonsense and just destroys the credibility of anyone spouting such BS.

That’s quite the list of reliable and reputable news sources you have there, shnor

wobbliscott – Member

So Russian jets do not enter UK airspace, but flying long range bombers directly towards UK airspace without submitting flight plans or responding to ATC is not exactly the actions of a nation with overly friendly intentions.

Do you have a source for this? The only thing I can recently find makes no reference to not responding to ATC.

But it’s only bad when the Russians do it, not the other way around? “U.S. aircraft approaching its border over the Black Sea because the American planes had turned off their transponders”.

Those links to so called ‘evidence’ are no more or less credible than the BBC or any other news organisation.

You’re dead right. Perhaps look into the credentials of the journalists who contribute towards the intercept, consortium news, neo-journal, and counterpunch; maybe you’ll be surprised? You too, shermer75, maybe you could learn something?

I completely agree it’s very difficult to get a balanced viewpoint, and both ‘sides’ seem to be getting even more polarised.

Putin has form. Poisoning Litvinenko for example

What? Putin personally poisoned Litvinenko? A classic example of what I’m getting at is the NYT; the headline boldly states “Putin ‘Probably Approved’ Litvinenko Poisoning”, but if you read only the 6th paragraph down: –

Though Sir Robert’s 328-page report, more than nine years after the poisoning, cited no hard evidence that Mr. Putin or Mr. Patrushev had been aware of the plot to kill Mr. Litvinenko or had sanctioned it

Do you see what I’m getting at? People skim the headlines and say “ah, Putin’s at it again” but when you drill down into the details it’s simply not the case.

BTW, you misrepresent me when you suggest I think Putin is a “hard-done by angel”, I didn’t say that at all. Compared to Obama (who’s war crimes are well-documented) he’s in the minor-leagues. FWIW I agree with your penultimate paragraph; he’s a shit-stirrer, and shit-stirring in very dangerous places and with very dangerous people.

Finally, MH17 (which wobbliscott and jambalaya allude to) I’d strongly urge everyone to read this and this with an open mind. Then come back to this thread and say “Putin did it”.

BTW I’ve no particular dog in the fight re. Putin, it’s the hypocrisy I find objectionable

[edit]

It doesn’t **** out shit? 😮

it’s the hypocrisy I find objectionable.

with you on that score

Russia = Cheap Big Macs. And we all thought Putin was crazy, heyyy 😉

http://discover.economist.com/?a=15000000&cid1=d/soc/Facebook/dyn/15000000/20160330-00:00am/paid/social-LA/BR-FT/BRP3/n/subs/UK/BR-MIT&cid3=UM