Can anyone explain how the railways work as there was a piece no the One Show last night about train overcrowding and they said that operators could not just go out and buy extra carriages, They said they would need to get permission and funding from government and that it was really complicated. I understand that Network Rail is government owned but don’t the train operators own the roiling stock. If not why not they are the ones making the profit and providing the service. All just seems bloody complicated.

Get on to Passenger Focus (the watchdog). I’ve used them once over a dispute regarding fares, fees, refunds etc and they have the clout to get beyond the “computer says no” call centre morons.

I’ve turned up to a virgin train before to be told I couldn’t get on because I didn’t have a bike reservation. Upon asking the guard how many bikes he had reserved he had no idea, but “that some might get on at intervening stations”. I ran to the ticket office and the guy wrote me out one by hand without logging it on the online system.

I have also been on a train with the bike (reserved) and 6 other people have attempted to get on….all with reservations!

I have an ultra lightweight bikebag for occasional train use when I can’t get a reservation. Noone has ever complained.

Can anyone explain how the railways work

Now this I’d like to see! 😆

Can anyone explain how the railways work

they don’t

I once got shit from the ‘train manager’ even though I actually had a ticket to put my bike on a Virgin train. I couldn’t have been more pleasant either.
GNER or National Express or whoever operates the east coast main can normally be persuaded into letting you take a bike on without a reservation.

ive had several occaisions where i have booked my bike on a train only to find that there was already the max number of bikes on the train and so wasnt allowed on. even though at least one of the bikes on there couldnt have booked. dont book anymore. just get there and take my chances.

Yes but Grum by that same logic motorists are subsidised by the HA. How dare drivers moan about petrol prices, they’re paid far more than the rail industry!

My point was that statements about Virgin being paid millions to operate aren’t true. Of course they’re making money, but they’re not exactly state funded! Yes they benefit from NR funding, again, as drivers do from HA funding.

I understand that Network Rail is government owned but don’t the train operators own the roiling stock. If not why not they are the ones making the profit and providing the service. All just seems bloody complicated.

Rolling stock, right… For a start the TOCs generally don’t own their stock, they lease it, (it’s bloody expensive) but that’s not the point. The franchise agreements will contain details on service provision, which will include things like new trains – eg Virgin were awarded the WCML franchise on the proviso they bought the Pendolinos (there’s a whole other thing there about the WCML upgrade). First have the same with the Thameslink franchise. The TOCs are quite tightly governed on what they can do, it’s not a free for all once they get the award – hence the bidding process. Where new rolling stock is required there’s a tendering process to go through (see the recent controversy with Siemens beating Bombardier for the new Thameslink stock).

There are big issues with capacity – you can’t just add more trains on most of the network, there isn’t the physical space, most notably on the WCML/Southern/South Central (hence HS2, the big advantage of high speed rail is increased capacity). You can’t make trains longer, there are all sorts of limits on that front! With MU stock you can potentially add more units where possible, but most overcrowded services are already as long as they can be, the 03:21 to Thurso probably doesn’t need another 2 coaches!

So basically the reasons TOCs can’t go out and just buy more trains is:
– Expensive
– Franchise restrictions
– Physical capacity

There’s a bit of a degree of ‘too many cooks’ and too much red tape. NR are shifting to longer franchise agreements to try and bring some more stability to the industry. Nationalisation does have it’s advantages, however there’s a lot of rose-tinted spectacles being used when looking at the rail industry – it carries more passengers than at any time since WW2, on half the route miles, on predominantly Victorian infrastructure (if you look to replace that people are up in arms though, see the HS2 example!). Punctuality is better than BR ever managed.

Yes it is expensive, but compare the service we have to that in, for example, the US (even their North East Corridor, which is the busiest bit of line). We don’t do that badly!

I’m gonna blame the IRA for being the reason we don’t have guard’s vans.

Is that part of the reason why don’t we have guards vans? Years ago you’d get on the van with your bike and lay it down in the cavernous interior – could fit 100 bikes there.

Bikes on the transpennine trains up to Scotland really are bollex – the conductor (guard?) never checks, so anyone can get on with a bike. If you booked a bike ticket and were getting on mid-way you could see the bike space totally stowed out with bikes. What’s the train man going to do, turf four different people off at Penrith to accommodate the one guy with a valid ticket? Unlikely.

It’s the shift to multiple unit stock and the maximisation of seating basically. A proper ‘guards van’ was something on the back of a freight train to provide braking in the event of a coupling failure, as old freight stock didn’t have independant brakes.

The 91 stock on the ECML still has DVTs (at the London end), where I assume the bikes go, certainly that’s where the guard sits if he wants to escape. Ditto the HSTs on the GWML and the ECML have power cars with bike storage, and a TGS MK3 coach at coach A (at the non-London end) with some storage space. However, with EMUs and power being dispersed through the train there’s no need for a DVT or a power car, thus no big empty space. What used to be half a coach dedicated to the guard/luggage/bikes etc is now usually racks at the end of each coach and a vestibule for a few bikes, whilst the guard hangs out in the rear/intermediate cab!

to the OP: YOU CAN book bike tickets at the same time as you book the train ticket, online!
you can only do this on http://www.eastcoast.co.uk
it doesn’t have to be an east coast train.

Rolling stock is leased, leasing companies (ROSCOs) have generally been owned by banks. The train operating companies (TOCs) service and maintain rolling stock, sometimes in association with the manufacturer (ie Siemens, Alstom) for newer trains. For even the most basic 2-carriage passenger train (lowliest on the network in 2011) leasing costs alone are about £200k pa. The cost of new passenger rolling stock usually works out about £1m per carriage.

The government (nationally and locally) decide service levels and allocation of rolling stock and let franchises based on historic, geographic and commercial boundaries. The TOCs (franchisees) gamble that they can turn a profit running the franchises within the specifications the govt prescribes.

A few ‘open access’ operators (Hull Trains, Grand Central, Wrexham & Shropshire) – basically people wanting to run trains outside the franchise system – have cropped up since privatisation. Generally these companies tend to lose money hand over fist, and all the above have either gone bust or been bought out by their (franchised) competitors if they turn a profit or prove a threat to business.

The standards, safety cases, regulations and general cans of worms involved in running train services, even for established franchised operators, keeps armies of lawyers and consultants in business. That’s one reason why the railway today sucks up more subsidy than ever when nationalised under British Rail (which even managed to run its own extensive R&D departments and make everything itself including its own steel).

The tories privatised BR in the 90s, the mess we have now is directly the result of that.

Oh and one reason the bike spaces are at the ends of newer trains such as Pendolinos etc is because construction standards dictated that passengers couldn’t travel in that portion of the front vehicle in case of collision. Effectively, the crumple zone.

Yes it is expensive, but compare the service we have to that in, for example, the US (even their North East Corridor, which is the busiest bit of line). We don’t do that badly!

Speaking as someone who lives at the bottom of said corridor, I’d rather have the UK network any day!

Local trains from here are commuter hours only – so 3 in the morning, 3 in the evening, none at the weekend. However, if you are prepared to travel during the week, you can get to New York on local trains – 120 miles, costs about $25, takes ~4 hours.

The ‘proper’ Amtrak trains are a joke however. We took a 2 hour journey back from NYC as we needed to get back on Sunday. For the princely sum of $105pp (£67), one-way, you get a crummy, old, smelly train, that runs late and is 100% booked solid, with no reserved seats. So it’s a crazy dash onto the train to find a seat not next to the weirdo. There’s no luggage room either. Bike space… 🙄

So, I’d rather be riding trains in the UK y’all hear?

Oh well, between cheburashka and I there’s a vague crash course on how the railways run, and confirmation we have it better than the US. Without going too far off on a tangeant (although I suspect it’s too late), a lot of the problem for Amtrak (the state owned passenger TOC) is access rights – the majority of US rail infrastructure is owned by the freight operators, who sell access rights to Amtrak, who are (understandably) absolutely then the lowest of the low.

Imagine what the WCML would be like if the freight trains had priority… there’s your long distance US service! That’s when they’re not crashing.

njee20 & cheburashka, you are Christian Wolmar and his lost twin brother and I claim my five pounds.
😆

I interviewed Christian Wolmar for my dissertation actually, really nice guy, just as scatty and slightly mental as he appears!

“Integrated Transport” – don’t hear much about that, these days…

I wonder if taking the wheels of, bungeeing them to the frame and carrying it on would be considered ‘luggage’?

Always worked for me when I was a student. I used to wrap it in a sheet.

Njee – this is by far the most I’ve ever seen you post on a thread that wasn’t about racing or weight weenyism. Presumably it’s related to your job?

“Integrated Transport” – don’t hear much about that, these days…

Is that like how if I get the train to Norwich there is not direct bus between the rail statin and airport, and the one that runns fro the city centre doesn’t allow the Rail+bus tickets?

What is it about Tories and the trains?

Beeching, Thatcher / Major….

2 years ago we decided to go cycle touring in France with the kids.

So 4 ferry passengers with bikes.

At the time the ferry had a “family” special for a car + 4 passengers.

We asked if we could buy that, but just not bring the car.

Nope.

So we had to pay extra to not bring the car!

i could write a book regarding the altercations that i have had with either rail staff or drunken passengers while using our glorious train network!

my favourite was when, after being made to feel insignificant by a tubby manager for not reserving a space for my bicycle, we had a full blown arguement as to his reasons why-he said i had to get a ticket as there were 3 riders embarking from midway, needless to say no-one got on the train. The best bit was when, during this shouting match, a random passenger stood up for me and asked the sweaty manager to “keep quiet as we were in a quiet carriage”!
you should have seen his bloated face.

brilliant.

Some of the problems with the trains seem more endemic to our society than to the rail industry itself. The fact that we’re a nation of feet-on-seat, fare-dodging pissheads isn’t something that can really be laid at the train companies door.

You get a train in Switzerland, say, and it’s a really nice environment that makes you think why can’t we have trains like this in the UK. Apparently the reason is our rolling stock sucks and it’s a huge outlay to upgrade it. Say we did, though – it’s still the same people on the train.

Njee – this is by far the most I’ve ever seen you post on a thread that wasn’t about racing or weight weenyism. Presumably it’s related to your job?

I rarely stray onto the chat forum, it’s a scary place filled with names I don’t know and far too little talk of what things weigh 🙂

But yes, a degree (and a former job) in Transport Planning, a personal interest in the rail industry and parents who both worked (Dad still does) in the rail industry for 20 years means I struggle to escape it!

You get a train in Switzerland, say, and it’s a really nice environment that makes you think why can’t we have trains like this in the UK. Apparently the reason is our rolling stock sucks and it’s a huge outlay to upgrade it. Say we did, though – it’s still the same people on the train

Aye, think that’s probably a fair point frankly! Being a train driver is a very respected profession over there as well apparently, less so here (although I don’t really know why!), so it’s an intrinsic view of the industry in all respects which is different.

Being a train driver is a very respected profession over there as well apparently, less so here

Still astoundingly well paid though.

Wow I started a monster.

Anyway, been busy in Manchester these last few days, but suffice to say that the Virgin ticketing system isn’t just madness, some of the staff are incompetent too.

I turned up at Euston 20 mins before my train with an aim to collect my return ticket and bike reservations from the machine…

…it spat out two return tickets and no bike reservations. Not only had the call centre lady not refunded the first attempt, but hadn’t actually booked the bike space on the train that did have spaces. Nice.

Luckily the lady at the Virgin reception desk was very helpful – apart from first getting me a bike space on a train one hour in the past, but I’ll let her off that one. She still said I had to phone the call centre to get the redundant ticket refunded however, and now I have to send the physical tickets back recorded delivery to Virgin urgh.

ps. Amazing that eastcoast can book a bike space & ticket at the same time on Virgin trains, but Virgin cant.