Can someone find me the legislation that prevents towing a load of greater weight than the vehicle manufacturer stated towing capacity?

I just noticed the automatic version of the wife’s car has a lower towing capacity than the manual – if this is enshrined in legislation somewhere then it seems a bit mental to base a law on a manufacturer’s desire to suffer less gearbox warranty claims IYSWIM.

This is just for my own interest, I have no intention of getting a tow bar fitted.

What’s in the handbook doesnt count, find the vin plate and subtract the gross vehicle weight (second highest figure) from the gross train weight (the highest figure). The answer is the towing limit.

Now if you want to get into a grey area, you can try claiming that your car is 300kg under its maximum weight, and therefore you have added this to the towing limit above…the car and trailer still technically coming under the gross train weight. Never really found a straight answer to this…

The reason the weight is lower for the Auto might not just been a longevity issue…the basic calc is putting the vehicle on an incline and doing a hill start, adding weight to the trailer until it runs out of grip or power. Perhaps the auto can’t deal with a tortuous start and stalls or slips, or 1st gear could be higher than the manual.

Legislation will just refer to manufacturers recommend maximum and the gross train weight the licence holder is allowed to drive.

I think the manufactures set the capacity on the cars ability to pull away on a given incline, so its a fairly basic measure and doesn’t really give an indication of how stable/safe the car would otherwise be towing that weight. So a different gear box could well result in different state capabilities, just because the ratios might be different.

I’d hazard a guess that the clutch/gear box is made of cheese if the tow capacity is lower than the manual version.. They wouldn’t lower the tow capacity for the fun of it… Could even lose sales over it.. So I’d probably take it at face value rather than trying to work around it.

They may well cut corners in terms of clutch performance with an auto, you can’t abuse the clutch with bad driving style in the same way a woman driving stick can! Haha!

Now if you want to get into a grey area, you can try claiming that your car is 300kg under its maximum weight, and therefore you have added this to the towing limit above…the car and trailer still technically coming under the gross train weight. Never really found a straight answer to this…

IIRC All that matters is the plated weight of the car and the trailer – what each actually weights in use isn’t really important (unless its overloaded). If you’re car GTW allows you to tow 1500kg, and the trailer is plated at 1600kg gross it doesn’t matter if the trailer is full or empty you’re in trouble.

That was my view Maccruiskeen…so I downplated my trailer from 3000kg to 2800kg to match the limit of my tow vehicle.

However I’ve read lots of conflicting advice and I reckon the DVLA deliberately leaves it open to interpretation to avoid a court case.

My trailer now runs close to 2800kg and I am debating whether it would be better to plate it back to 3000kg, 200kg above the van limit, rather than risk the trailer being over 2800kg.

I’ve never been pulled and checked but you do see it at some events.

However I’ve read lots of conflicting advice and I reckon the DVLA deliberately leaves it open to interpretation to avoid a court case.

Could be worth a bit of new reading. There was a campaign a few years ago, not with the DVLA but with VOSA, because their legislation was so vague and open to interpretation. Basically dozens of letters were sent to them outlining, each a specific instance and all the replies were collated and published, just try and clarify what the perimeters really were. Hillariously even though each letter sought to clarify what the law was, each reply from VOSA ended with ‘this does not constitute legal advice’.

So now there advice was material published by VOSA (which I’ve lost my link to) and it outlines the legislation in an FAQ format with questions and answers very like the ones the campaign was sending them. In particular it does more to clarify the legislation regarding the nuances around private, for business (i.e. a business user transporting their own equipment), and haulage / hire & reward towing.

There is cooling issues with auto boxes hence the lower towing capacity of your wifes car

Ok,I think I’ve worked this out now.

Gross vehicle weight & gross train weight specify maximum values, not actual values.

The measured car weight cannot exceed gross vehicle weight.

The measured whole outfit weight cannot exceed the gross train weight.

Lots of misinformation out there.

IIRC All that matters is the plated weight of the car and the trailer – what each actually weights in use isn’t really important (unless its overloaded). If you’re car GTW allows you to tow 1500kg, and the trailer is plated at 1600kg gross it doesn’t matter if the trailer is full or empty you’re in trouble.

You probably need to double check that – I’m pretty certain it’s wrong.

If GTW is 1500kg your Car+Trailer must be under 1500kg when measured.

You probably need to double check that – I’m pretty certain it’s wrong.

If GTW is 1500kg your Car+Trailer must be under 1500kg when measured.

No I said if the GTW allows you to tow 1500kg, i.e. 1500kg is the change from deducting the GVW from the GTW. The towing limit isn’t on the vehicle plate, you have to deduce it from the numbers that are there.

What I was saying was if the plated weights of the vehicle and trailer exceed the GTW then its doesn’t matter what they actually weigh.

What I was saying was if the plated weights of the vehicle and trailer exceed the GTW then its doesn’t matter what they actually weigh.

Yes, and I’m saying I think that is wrong.

You can’t go over the limits specified, but you can be under them.

So if your trailer was plated as capable of carrying 5,000,000 tons, but it only weighed 200kg at the time you were towing it that would be fine as long as 200kg + actual weight of the car is lower than the GTW. (Assuming you’re within all the various other limits.)

I think you’re missing a significant point..

‘Can someone find me the legislation that prevents towing a load of greater weight than the vehicle manufacturer stated towing capacity?’

A vehicle manufacturer is not going to knowingly under rate tow capacity for obvious reasons.

You can’t go over the limits specified, but you can be under them.

From here

Braked Trailers

Although trailers with overrun brakes can weigh up to 3500kg gross, actual maximum weights are set by the specifications of the vehicle that is doing the towing. The law says you must not exceed the Gross Train Weight that the manufacturer has set for the towing vehicle. Look in the vehilce handbook or on a plate riveted to the vehicle to find this figure. You then have to subtract the weight of the towing vehicle (including fuel, driver, passengers, luggage or cargo) from the Gross Train Weight. The amount you are left with is the maximum theoretically-possible weight of trailer that can be towed legally. REMEMBER, the law does not care whether the trailer is empty or packed to the roof with bricks, what counts is the plated gross vehicle weight of the trailer.

and here

* Trailer gross weight MUST be equal to or below the tow cars maximum towing capacity.

* Then trailers unladen weight + contents must be equal to or below the trailers maximum capacity.

Basically, that is the law as enforced by VOSA. If you dont heed this, and you get stopped or are in an accident you will be liable for a fine and invalidating your insurance. Your vehicle’s max towing capacity will be in the manufacturers handbook on or a plate , often inside your door. Trailer weights can be found on the plate near the towhitch.

Dont bother asking the DVLA for clarification, they deal with licensing… they are also giving a lot of people the wrong info, as are some local police! Some people are gretting it wrong as they are going by the unladen weights of their trailers – you must go by the gross weight, even if its empty.

The law says you must not exceed the Gross Train Weight that the manufacturer has set for the towing vehicle.

I am pretty certain that this earlier sentence in your quote is correct, and the bit you bolded is wrong.

I haven’t seen the law on this and it’s possible I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.

EDIT:
I’m not for one second suggesting forum posts are reliable evidence but to explain my thinking see Lutz here:
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/towing-driving-and-safety/4946-payloads-noseweights?start=10

and Rog here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=1019747&mid=0&i=60&nmt=Re%20plating%20Trailers.&mid=0

Lutz quotes some law but I can’t find it!

Lutz/Rogs comments have the ring of truth to me.

Mac, that quote is as odds with what you are stating regarding max trailer weight = GTW – GVW. They are stating subtract the actual vehicle weight.

This fits with manufactures that spec a max trailer weight > GTW – GVW

It’s still looking very grey to me 🙁 My next van will have a GTW of 7000kg to give a towing capacity of 3500kg. The only difference to my current van is it has a 6spd box instead of a 5spd.

Found this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/211965/quick-guide-to-towing-small-trailers.pdf

No mention whatsoever of being prosecuted for overloading because your trailer has a max legal load capability beyond what your car can tow.

Mac, that quote is as odds with what you are stating regarding max trailer weight = GTW – GVW. They are stating subtract the actual vehicle weight.

the trouble is – unless you have weight bridge handy – you don’t know what the actual weight is. However the trailers plated weight is a constant whatever it actually weighs. So if you were buying a trailer you’d buy on the most the car is likely to weigh – otherwise you’d be legal on some journeys and not on others depending on who or what is in the car.

But the point stands that the plated weight matters not the actual weight.

The whole thing is a quagmire though, legislatively, as in the middle ground between private use and hire/reward the rules relating to trailer use for business use (in relation to whether you need an Operators License / Tacograph when towing with a van) are based on the unladen weight of the trailer, regardless of what the plated or train weight is.

But the point stands that the plated weight matters not the actual weight.

Deffo not. I’ve posted the VOSA pdf that states otherwise.

The whole thing is a quagmire though, legislatively

Looks simple to me:

The vehicle manufacturer’s plate will give you
the following information about weights for
your vehicle…

The first weight (1695) is the maximum weight of
the vehicle on its own. The second weight (2895)
is the maximum weight for the vehicle and any
trailer that is attached. The third weight (890) is
the maximum for the front axle of the vehicle and
the final weight (880) is the maximum weight for
the rear axle of the vehicle.
These weights must not be exceeded on public
roads.

Just going back to the OP, would it not be more unreasonable for the manufacturer to set the towing limit at a level that could cause premature failure of major components in pursuit of a bigger market share? Regardless of whether it’s a warranty issue or not…

The US pickup market is renowned for this, they give their vehicles insanely high gross vehicle and train weights, on the basis that most will never be subjected to this. The minority that are run constantly laden (fitted with demountable campers, or towing gooseneck trailers etc) generally have appalling reliability issues.

the trouble is – unless you have weight bridge handy – you don’t know what the actual weight is

Which is equally a problem when ensuring you don’t go over the GVW or the trailer plated weight. Irrespective of how easy or difficult is might be to ensure weight complaince the fact remains that max trailer weight does not necessarily always equal GTW – GVW.

Example a T32 Transporter van is plated as:
GVW = 3200kg
GTW = 5200kg

VW specify that max trailer weight is 2500kg

Obvioulsy can’t tow 2500kg when the van is fully loaded but at around 1/2 load you can.

Edit: It’s similar to how the two axle weights don’t add up to equal the GVW.

Just going back to the OP, would it not be more unreasonable for the manufacturer to set the towing limit at a level that could cause premature failure of major components in pursuit of a bigger market share? Regardless of whether it’s a warranty issue or not…

I just wanted to know what the rules were. Now I know. I’m happy.

I have a little experience on this one. I can confirm it is possible to be convicted of towing a trailer based of its plated weight rather than its actual weight as I am guilty of the offence. I gained 3 points and a smallish fine, I also had to collect the trailer with a suitable vehicle.

I have a little experience on this one. I can confirm it is possible to be convicted of towing a trailer based of its plated weight rather than its actual weight as I am guilty of the offence. I gained 3 points and a smallish fine, I also had to collect the trailer with a suitable vehicle.

Were you done for excess weight or were you done because you passed your test after 1997 and were not legally allowed to tow that trailer?

EDIT: Sorry, didn’t see the bit about picking it up with a suitable vehicle. Was it a fixed penalty? What was the offence code?

Demonracer, can you try it again but go to court this time so the legal boffins can make judgement!

Mean while back in the real world.

Your insurance will take a very dim view if you have an accident while towing more than the plated weight of your vehicle.

Your insurance cannot refuse to pay out over it to third parties but they can pay out then take you to court to reinstate their pay out from you.

Some of the vehicle grass train weights are ‘off’. A 17 seat transit loaded with adults is over the GTW/MAM.

Poor vehicle design Matt…same for buses, they have a standard calc for passenger weight and we keep getting fatter. Driver would still be responsible if pulled over for being overloaded.

However if its a proper factory 17 seater, the gross vehicle weight should be something like 4600kg.

I suspect many 17seat transit mini buses are down plated to allow volunteers to drive them

https://www.minibusoptions.co.uk/content/minibuses-volunteer-drivers

We got pulled when towing our trailer. Taken to a weigh bridge. they made a mistake, or decided to turn a blind eye. We have now down plated the trailer to keep it under the max.

I wonder if they will prosecute for the plated weights totalling over the GTW, but if they can weigh you they take the actual weights.

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits. Also look at the driving license requirements. They can catch people out aswell.

onder if they will prosecute for the plated weights totalling over the GTW, but if they can weigh you they take the actual weights.

No. Unless you can point at some law that say otherwise, they take the actual weights to do you for excess weight.

Ah ok , so its gone from you think last night to being the authority on it this morning

Anyone got any case law on the matter ?

I know that the licencing is based on plated weights- ive had a warning for towing my dads ifor – plated 3500 – even though i only had a sofa in it:

My fault i always just borrowed his old 750kg plated trailer no sweat , never gave it a second thought after he got his new one.

Ah ok , so its gone from you think last night to being the authority on it this morning

Yes, yesterday I asked what the rules were, then I found (and posted) SOSA’s PDF which states the rules on excess weight. Because of that I know the rules so I suppose I am an authority. Can I have an “Authority on excess weight” hat?

The problem is, that link is a ‘quick guide’, its not exactly that comprehensive is it? It doesn’t state its OK for the Gross trailer weight to exceed the vehicles towing limit, it just neglects to clarify. In the Further Information section it refers you to The National Trailer & Towing Association, and they have a document which states on the first page:

1. Preparing the trailer
Matching the Trailer with the Towing Vehicle
It is important that the vehicle you use to pull your trailer is adequate for the job. You need to
check:
• That the engine is large enough to tow the trailer and load
• That the brakes are powerful enough to stop the vehicle and trailer safely.
• The Gross Trailer Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the towing
vehicle.

However, do we take Gross Trailer Weight to mean the actual weight or the Gross permitted weight. Further down it states:

Is the load within the trailer’s official payload? – i.e. Not overloaded.
• Is the actual gross weight being towed within the towing vehicle manufacturer’s
recommended maximum towing limit (whether braked or unbraked.)?

So NTTA seem to think that the actual weight needs to be within the tow limit.

But there is clearly confusion as there are several examples of people on this thread being prosecuted or warned for having an unladen trailer with a plate that exceeds the towing limit…

I imagine it could be quite difficult to pass the ‘attitude test’ at the side of the road whilst still arguing with a Police officer that his interpretation of the law is incorrect!

It doesn’t state its OK for the Gross trailer weight to exceed the vehicles towing limit

True, but nobody has found the rule VOSA forgot to mention, and the bit VOSA forgot to mention makes a massive difference and would make the rules on excess weight utterly insane.

I asked a similar question when I sat my b+e recently regarding actual and plated weights.

Word from the tester was that plated weight is everything, if the trailer plated weight exceeds that of the tow vehicle’s allowable towing capacity or your licences towing capacity you are potentially in the shit. An empty 3000 kg plated trailer is 3000 kg, even if it only weighs 749 kg empty.

I’m sure plenty get away with it, but for me it’s not worth the risk.

My understanding is, in terms of towing capacity, the actual trailer weight is what applies. I know several large companies who are regularly towing gross plated trailers that exceed the vehicle towing capacity, and I’m sure they wouldn’t be risking that if it was illegal.

Plus my brother tows a 3500kg GVW trailer with his Navarra (think permitted towing weight is about 2700kg, its certainly not 3500kg), and he’s been pulled over at VOSA checkpoints a few times and it’s never been an issue. He has also been escorted to a weighbridge to have weights checked.

However in terms of license requirements, the gross weights apply.
There are quite a few trailers plated around the 1200kg mark, for the sole reason of keeping combination weights below 3500kg, but very few around 2500kg, as most just buy a trailer plated at the maximum 3500kg.