certainly annoying I pay £500

You could have bought a different car of course.

The problem with taxing fuel further is that it becomes a tax bourne by those living in rural areas.

Don’t see a problem. You choose to live miles from anywhere you accept higher travel costs. Can’t say I’ve noticed any tendency for rural drivers to choose small economical cars. Fuel costs can’t be that much of a problem.

Anyway you only start losing after 12k miles or so. An extra 8k miles above that with 10p per L extra would only cost an extra £20 or so.

If the idea is to influence behaviour and get people to use cars less then not everyone is going to be happy.

I’d be opposed to it based on the fact that there’s already 60p (?) per litre on fuel already which I think is farcical.

Which is exactly my point for why this will never happen. Overall, on average, we could pay less tax (excluding current tax evaders from “we”) thanks to less administration and no longer subsidising tax evaders, yet you’re not prepared to entertain the idea because you think that the tax on one particular aspect is already “too high”.

Can you really not separate the issue of whether the total amount of tax collected is too high, from whether that amount is collected efficiently and fairly?

bigfoot – Member
…just doing one of my hobby’s would easily cost more than it would to tax both vehicles.

Ever thought of taking up cycling instead? 🙂

Sorry, irresistible. 60 litres in a day? we need a pic.

even cycling needs fuel to miss out the boring road miles on the way to the trails, the closest i ride to home is about 6 miles away. when your that close to decent lakes trails no point riding the crap stuff at home.

here’s your pic

yamaha R1 engine that does about 12mpg when being hammered around the track.

Can you really not separate the issue of whether the total amount of tax collected is too high, from whether that amount is collected efficiently and fairly?

but it wouldn’t be “fairly” for the people like me who have to buy fuel for use not on roads.

then there is also the fuel used that isn’t used on the roads, my trackday car is purely for track use so not taxed. the 60+ litres i used at oulton park on tuesday would of been even more expensive and for the 9/10 trackdays i do a year the yearly cost would be a big extra. then there would also be the increased diesel cost to tow the car there behind my van.

So you’ve got a track day car, and do 9/10 weekends a year. 60 litres per weekend.

Let’s say, the additional tax on fuel was way over what’s been estimated and increased the price by 20p a litre.

You reckon that would be a “big extra” cost on what you already spend ?

About an extra £100 a year. Hardly a big addition to what it must already cost is it ?

Especially when you consider that the price of fuel has dropped 20p/litre in the last 12 months anyway.

but it wouldn’t be “fairly” for the people like me who have to buy fuel for use not on roads.

But part of the argument for tax on fuel and abolishing VED is to reduce CO2 production by reducing the use of cars. Your fuel produces CO2 whether you are on road or not.

Think of it as taking one for the team. An extra £6 fuel cost on your track day to save the planet.

Some of those rural types might just have been born there and work in poorly paid jobs there. The countryside isn’t really just a playground for people who’ve got bored of making money in the city and have seen a lifestyle they like the look of in a magazine.

People in the countryside drive 4×4 s because they generally need them to get somewhere or pull something, not just because some footballer has one that they’ve seen in the chat mag or to compete with their neighbour.

Also – track day fuel use. Why shouldn’t you pay if it’s still chucking out pollutants?

We should just get everyone to move to the cities and let the land go wild then. It would work until folk got hungry.

Also – track day fuel use. Why shouldn’t you pay if it’s still chucking out pollutants?

i already do with the tax i already pay on the fuel, my issue is with having to pay more if VED was added to fuel as well.

fair enough, the extra cost may not be that high but it still would be more than i’m having to pay now for a hobby that’s expensive enough as it is.

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Just checked my VIN number on the VW website and it seems VW will be getting in touch with me when they know how to correct the software in my car. They are very sorry for causing this break down in trust and all the necessary work will be carried out at their expense.

We should just get everyone to move to the cities and let the land go wild then. It would work until folk got hungry.

Agricultural vehicles use red diesel, which is tax free….

fair enough, the extra cost may not be that high but it still would be more than i’m having to pay now for a hobby that’s expensive enough as it is.

I have less than zero sympathy for someone whose hobby is based around burning fossil fuel! You’re basically getting your kicks out of polluting the air we all have to breath.

bigfoot – Member
…yamaha R1 engine that does about 12mpg when being hammered around the track.

That looks like you’d need a good toothbrush to get the bugs out of your teeth (from all the grinning at full tilt 🙂 ).

I think all the pollution controls are a load of crap. If we were serious about it, it should be the total produced by a vehicle regardless of engine size, ie no consideration for engine size or percentages, just say x is the maximum allowed, and then watch engine sizes drop.

Considering you can get 6 people into something the size of a a Honda Actyvan, cars are simply too big for what is needed. (That’s hypocritical btw, I like big cars).

I think all the pollution controls are a load of crap. If we were serious about it, it should be the total produced by a vehicle regardless of engine size, ie no consideration for engine size or percentages, just say x is the maximum allowed, and then watch engine sizes drop.

That is how it’s currently done. Hence the spate of downsized engines in recent car models.

So will this fix be compulsory, my vin shows my 09 Passat as having this software. Would sooner not loose fuel mpg as I commute about 75 miles a day.

I don’t think the government is forcing people to have the mod done but it may affect your warranty or insurance if you don’t. If the power or economy drops due to this mod I may see what my chances are to hand my 14 plate yeti back and get something else with any relevant compensation ie my deposit and any equity in the vehicle etc. Sales of goods act etc.

it may affect your warranty or insurance if you don’t.

How will that work then? Why does it make your insurance invalid and why would the way the car was setup by the manufacturer invalidate your warranty?

It may invalidate the warranty if you don’t have the mod done because it is no longer to the manufacturers specification. Same for the insurance so I believe. Don’t know how it will affect residuals later on though.

But if they’re not making it compulsory you’re breaking nothing as it’s exactly to the manufacturers specification.

From April 2017 it is a flat rate £140 VED

It is, but that only applies to new cars registered on or after that date.

But if they’re not making it compulsory you’re breaking nothing as it’s exactly to the manufacturers specification.

Agreed. If the insurance has an issue with the outcome of the modification it should be reflected in the renewal. not void your current policy unless insurers decide to void the policies immediately.

irc – Member
The problem with taxing fuel further is that it becomes a tax bourne by those living in rural areas.
Don’t see a problem. You choose to live miles from anywhere you accept higher travel costs. Can’t say I’ve noticed any tendency for rural drivers to choose small economical cars. Fuel costs can’t be that much of a problem.

Are you trolling, or just unbelievably ignorant?
By far the greatest majority of people who live in rural areas do so because that’s where their families are from. I live in a fairly large market town in North Wilts, but once you get further than three or four miles outside the town, public transport vanishes, so anyone living in an outlying village is stuffed, and needs a car, for work, for getting the kids to school, as virtually all small village schools have shut, as have shops, post offices, pubs. A good friend has spent most of her life in the village of Colerne, attached to a large military base. She used to work in Bath, ten miles away on fairly narrow, and steep roads. There are two buses a day, one in the early morning, the other after lunch. How do people in places like that manage, then? Are you seriously suggesting it’s their fault that they live where they do? Are you proposing a reverse-Khmer Rouge situation, forcing everyone out of the villages into towns, because fuel prices in rural areas are artificially inflated by the suppliers?
Muppet. 🙄

speed12 – Member
That is how it’s currently done. Hence the spate of downsized engines in recent car models.

Thanks. Wasn’t aware of that.

CountZero – Member

She used to work in Bath, ten miles away

10 miles??? I commute nearly double that each way. For a 5 day week 50 weeks a year that’s 5k miles a year. Assuming a 50mpg car. 100 gals. Or 454L. So at 10p per litre an extra £45.40 per year for her commute. Largely offset by not paying VED anymore. Excuse me if I don’t shed any tears.

^ Given you seemingly don’t have any outside contact with the world outside of your daily commute I can see why you appear to be a bit on the anti-social side. Maybe try getting out more, that’s what most people do.

(Were you seriously suggesting that the person in question solely used their car for commuting and nothing else?)

(Were you seriously suggesting that the person in question solely used their car for commuting and nothing else?)

No, I was pointing out that a 10 mile commute does not mean a vast annual mileage. As a switch to no VED and extra fuel tax would be revenue neutral the average driver doing 10-12k a year would not gain or lose. Therefore the 5k per year commute still leaves another 7k for discretionary miles before being any worse off.

And what’s anti social about advocating a different tax structure which might encourage people to use their cars fractionally less?

Scrappage seems to be raising its headed. I’d be interested in that if it came about! Thoughts on that?

Not exactly environmentally friendly to just chuck a car into the bin, but better for kittens today etc.

Well I came here hoping for some useful info for my parents worried about their diesel Passat but instead find the usual stw hotbed of bickering and first world middle class problems 😆

the extra cost may not be that high but it still would be more than i’m having to pay now for a hobby that’s expensive enough as it is.

I think it’s terrible that you are forced into your expensive hobby with no option to do something less expensive and stressful to you.

Today in the news, it’s announced that the VW will start ‘fixing’ cars in Jan 2016. But just what exactly are they going to fix?

I get the impression that this fix is just going to remove the cheat…..Unless they are going to remap the cars to reduce the emissions, this seems like a pointless exercise to me. Once out on the road and in the consumer’s hands the cheat has no purpose and could remain there with no consequences?

Agreed. No VED and fuel only tax is the way to go. But then, the government wouldn’t have a means of knowing where every car was registered which renews every year…

dmorts
Today in the news, it’s announced that the VW will start ‘fixing’ cars in Jan 2016. But just what exactly are they going to fix?

I get the impression that this fix is just going to remove the cheat…..Unless they are going to remap the cars to reduce the emissions, this seems like a pointless exercise to me. Once out on the road and in the consumer’s hands the cheat has no purpose and could remain there with no consequences?

Well, they’ll either remove the cheat mode (which would be a pointless pr move) or they’ll map the cars to be as emission compliant as they are during the cheat mode which will probably see owners losing a bit of power, a bit of torque and some drive ability.

I have a VAG car, which may be equipped with a DF.

Afaik, if the DF (software – engine map) is removed, then I do not expect real world emissions and performance to be effected.

However it further seems those emissions are not inline with the vehicle’s current VED banding.
Therefore I believe a few points arise.

a) VAG remove DF software, UK Gov doesn’t re-band those cars effected, UK Gov fine VAG. UK customers have some form of recourse, where VAG buy back their cars or compensate.

b) VAG not only remove DF software, but re-map ecu after which real world consumption and driving characteristics are significantly altered.

If that happens, VAG can buy my car from me, as it would not then be the car I thought I was buying.

In the end, Joe public purchased, trusting both UK Gov and VAG to test and to comply. Therefore owners should not lose out because of this particular issue.
imo.

Well, they’ll either remove the cheat mode (which would be a pointless pr move)

[speculation]I suspect this what they’ll do and, as you say, PR being the motivation…. but to call that a ‘fix’ they’re digging themselves even deeper! However, they will likely get away with it due to most affected VAG owners not really understanding the technical aspects.

I very much doubt they will remap cars to meet emissions, nor will any government/authority push them to do so. The whole thing stinks[/speculation] 😀

Solo- the cars aren’t being rebanded.

I can’t imagine they’ve had time to develop a new map to make it any more emissions compliant.

Solo – Member

However it further seems those emissions are not inline with the vehicle’s current VED banding.

Depends how you look at it – does your (or my) VAG diesel actually produce the same amount of pollutants they claim is does – no, none of them do, the lab test the government use to determine such things isn’t well linked to the real world, but more of a ‘yard stick’. However every manufacturer has ‘optimised’ the way their vehicles work for ideal results during the test. Where VAG fell down is that their cars actually act differently on the road as they did under test conditions.

There are two facts that mean that it won’t effect VED rate – firstly the Government has already stated it won’t reclassify any existing vehicles because it unfairly discriminates against consumers who couldn’t have seen this coming.

Secondly this scandal is about VAG cheating the test for Nitrogen, specifically for the US market when they put a lot more onus on Nitrogen emissions then we do in the UK. VED is based on CO2 and there been no suggestion that the cheat effects CO2 emissions.

I personally am in no rush to have my car recalled, well I won’t be first in the queue anyway – I suspect they’ll just remove the cheat code, but if they decide to go honest and mess about with the ‘map’ I won’t be keen, I’ve driven a load of other types of cars recently and they all seem to have this flat spot in the rev range (where I assume the tests are taken) which mine doesn’t have/

dmorts –

[speculation]I suspect this what they’ll do and, as you say, PR being the motivation…. but to call that a ‘fix’ they’re digging themselves even deeper! However, they will likely get away with it due to most affected VAG owners not really understanding the technical aspects.

Agree, most people won’t know or care about the technical aspects, they’ll just be happy that their “bad” car is made good. The motoring press and media in general might be a different ball game.

molgrips

I can’t imagine they’ve had time to develop a new map to make it any more emissions compliant.

They already have that, it’s the cheat map 😀

I don’t own a VW, still got an opinion though 😆

I think VW will recall all cars “they” think are affected. Clearly dealers around the country will be up in arms about trying to recontact Owners and 2nd/3rd gen owners so they’ll have to be all brought into the loop. It’ll be a massive undertaking, costing more than VW and the UK Govt expect.

As for the Fix? Is there such a thing? a remap? for what, take the flat spot out? Seems both pointless and uneconomic.
If the flat spot only occurs when in test mode then suck it up/accept it in the test scenario and simply make note that the car is one that is affected, big red splat on the logbook should do it.

Other than that I see all this as a PR plaster at best.