Providing you picked up an M10 nut and the bolt was the right length, why wouldn't it work? I'm assuming it'd snap or bend, but what makes a poper through axle stronger?
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Using a long M10 bolt as an axle- tell me why it won't work?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Dont know for sure but i think you would struggle to bend it after all what you are doing is just holding everything together, which is normally done by a puny little qr. The reason everybody isnt using them could be weight and possibly not bling enough !
Posted 2 years ago # -
what makes a poper through axle stronger?
metallurgy / heat treatment. (possibly)
most axles i've seen aren't threaded under the bearings. i think you'd struggle to find a bolt in the right dims.
Posted 2 years ago # -
You could use a length of M10 studding with a nut and washer at each end. I'd make sure it was mild and not stainless so it adds an air ot total gashtivity.
Posted 2 years ago # -
no no no no.
bolt shafts aren't always made to as good a tolerance as the axles will be.
the thread of the bolt may sit where the bearing sits and therefore can damage the bearings or the other way round.
just no.
why do you think people study for years to be an engineer to design bikes for people to then put any old bolt in.
just my two penneth.Posted 2 years ago # -
You should be able to get a bolt with a long enough unthreaded section to be effectively the same as a 'proper' axle. I've bought one before for a 10mm x 135mm rear end.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Depends on the type of axle - you can use a bit of threaded rod as a bolt through axle if stuck, but they are generally M12.
If you're using open bearings rather than sealed, you'd not be able to use a bolt as there would be no way of tightening it while keeping the bearings adjusted.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Its cartridge bearings. Threaded length is 32mm- which is perfect as my dropouts are 168mm apart!
Weight isn't an issue.
Its for a 10mm bolt through axle, using a Saint hub.
So will it work, or is it a bad idea?
Posted 2 years ago # -
A M10 bolt or stud is unlikely to be a close enough tolerance fit in your cartridge bearing to be useable. But for the sake of a fiver why not go down to B & Q, give it a go and then see why its not a good idea.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't appear to have many genuine options unfortunately!
Posted 2 years ago # -
The thread may not be fine enough to properly tighten up the wheel (look how many threads per inch on a QR in comparison to an M10 bolt)
Posted 2 years ago # -
The forks dropouts are supporting the bearing, the QR/ bolt is providing tension to ensure that there is considerable friction between the axle and the fork dropouts.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I wouldn't worry too much about the tolerance. If it's a little bit undersize it will just sit a bit off centre. It's not like it will be floating around once it's clamped up tight.
I can't see the thread pitch being a problem either. You'll get far more clamping force with an M10 bolt than you ever will with a QR.
I think the biggest problem will be getting just the right length of thread. If the thread is too long, so it goes through the drop out, you will have a reduced load bearing area. the threads will cut in to the drop out and the drop out will hammer the threads flat.
If the thread is too short, the nut won't tighten fully.
You'll need to carry two 17mm spanners out on the trail too.Posted 2 years ago # -
it'll work a treat, just a marketing department hasn't told you so
I was so pissed off when I got my {12mm}bolt through axle from Intense for the small fortune they charged
its a normal bolt that looks slightly fancy and cost's 55 dollars more than a normal bolt
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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Bolts are usually graded with numbers on the head. The higher the number the better it is. Buy one from an engineering supplier rather than B&Q
Posted 2 years ago # -
As long as the bolt passes all the way through the nut it will be ok.
Put a washer either side to spread the load if you can get one in.
If the bolt is too long then screw the nut on passed the point that you need to cut it off and then chop the end off with a hacksaw, tidy it up with a file and then take the nut off. If you do this you'll have no difficulty getting the nut on after as cutting through the thread may slightly bollox the thread i you don't.
Get a plain nut for chopping it off and a nyloc nut for on the bike.
As Militant Graham said you'll be able to get loads more torque on the bolt as it's a coarser thread so be careful you don't do it up too tight or you'll kill the bearings very quickly as they're not designed for big side loads
Posted 2 years ago # -
glad i bothered.
Posted 2 years ago # -
nickhart - Member
glad i bothered
you are of course right that companies do spend an awful lot of cash on R&D to make their products function properly and in the case of a lot of cycling bit look pleasing to the eye. And then along comes the STW massive who dare to suggest that maybe on occassion the part in question could be replaced by a cheaper alternative. May be the OP needs a fix today so he can ride tomorrow and needs some help to sort the problem (we've all been there at some point in our lives). He'll probably get the correct axle at some point as due to the tolerancing issues (bearings are usually made to a shaft based tolerance and bolts to a hole based tolerance) the life expectancy of the bearings in the hub will be reduced.
Now nick......is that your dolly in the corner of the forum?.....would you like me to put it back in your pram for you?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why on earth would you opt for something that needs a muckle big spanner to be carried to get the wheel off?
There are plenty of standard products out there that will do this with a QR, Spin locks and hex keys...
Coarser threads = less torque not more.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why would you want to do that? It's a lot of hassle finding the right bolt length with the right shaft to thread ratio, coarse threads, coarse bolt shaft, bolt shaft dia's aren't accurate etc etc. You have a small price saving but if it goes wrong it could end up being much more expensive to fix or with you left in a heap somewhere. Plus at the end of the day you would have an ugly, industrial looking bolt on the back of your bike.
Posted 2 years ago # -
i don't see why it wouldn't work if cones have the same thread. i thought axles use the ISO fine thread rather than a standard M10 bolt which will be coarse? i might be wrong
personally i'd just buy an axle, even if it was just my pub bike. they're pretty cheap
Posted 2 years ago # -
SM-AX80 Axle Unit ( 10) M10 x 168 mm
those bolts in your link are grade 10.9 which is only about 10% weaker than 853, they should be plenty strong enough.
Posted 2 years ago # -
IT'S A CARTRIDGE BEARING HUB
Posted 2 years ago # -
Winding up the axle tight will not put side loads on the bearings unless the spacer that sits between the bearings is missing
Posted 2 years ago # -
Given that this is essentially how motorcycle wheels have been secured for decades the principle is entirely sound. But use a decent bit steel, not just a rubbish bolt.
If I thought you had access to a lathe I would say get a spindle from a motorcycle breaker and machine it to size.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why is the fact it's a cartridge bearing hub got to do with anything?! Every bolt through rear hub I've owned has a solid uninterrupted internal 'axle' which means the bearings have no contact with the fixing axle. It only needs to bolt onto the frame. Use a anti-slip nut if you're worried about it coming loose.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think the biggest problem will be getting just the right length of thread. If the thread is too long, so it goes through the drop out, you will have a reduced load bearing area. the threads will cut in to the drop out and the drop out will hammer the threads flat.
So Hope have it wrong with their bolt in hubs then?
I've been using a couple of these hubs for quite a while and it's not damaged the frame.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why is the fact it's a cartridge bearing hub got to do with anything?! Every bolt through rear hub I've owned has a solid uninterrupted internal 'axle' which means the bearings have no contact with the fixing axle
Exactly, have you read the other posts either? You may have missed it but some keep referring to cup & cone type hubs or the bolt contacting bearings!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Mate, the reason I told you (on SDH) to try a bolt is that is what Mr Big ST-10s used, usually with Hope (135mm?) hubs so it could have been a 10mm - to find out if they were 12mm or 10mm ask Trailrat on here, he had a Mr Big.
Gary
Posted 2 years ago # -
Even with Saint cup & cone type hubs there's a sleeve thru the axle that the cones thread on to. The thru axle sits inside that.
The same applies to most rear sealed bearing axles. The thru axle will rarely sit on the bearing inner race.
The axle sleeves are usually machined to regular bolt sizes i.e. M10 or M12. So using a bolt or threaded bar to fix a wheel is fine.
It'll be heavy, but there's no reason why it won't work.I'm not convinced it's stiffer than a QR setup in regular dropouts though.
The maxle version actually fixes into the swingarm in the same way a motorcycle wheel does with no gap at the bottom to allow for any unwanted movement through the vertical axis. But with a std 10mm dropout, this isn't the case. With a reg QR and axle working in unison, it's every bit as stiff as a bolted axle at 10mm because in theory, it's the same. The fixing method is the only difference. If you don't bolt a thru axle up tight enough it's just the same as a loose QR, but if they're both done up tight, there's very little difference.Posted 2 years ago # -
Except that the Q/R rod is a relatively small diameter. So unless the Q/R actually slips (which I don't think they do, when closed correctly) I thought the reason it possibly isn't as rigid as a bolt must be that it stretches (elastic deformation) when loaded up. Thus, allowing the dropouts to move independently. Assuming this isn't all a placebo, as I've never had the opportunity to try a bolt though or similar, let alone do a back to back comparison.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So Hope have it wrong with their bolt in hubs then?
I've not seen those type of hubs before.
I was just going on general mechanics practice.
Whenever bolting a thin plate to a thicker casting, for example, it's always best to put the non threaded end of of the bolt through the thinner component to give a greater load bearing surface.
Those serrations on the Hope hub and washers look like they would do a good job of holding everything in place and preventing the threads from taking the load directly.Posted 2 years ago # -
The issue is that most 10mm axles are designed for 135mm wheels. I've got a 135mm wheel, but very thick dropouts due to a floating brake arm.
So the axle needs to be 168mm (ish) before any thread or nut.
The Saint axle is 168mm- so just short. No other options on the market as far as I can see.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Orange Crush - Member
Given that this is essentially how motorcycle wheels have been secured for decades the principle is entirely sound. But use a decent bit steel, not just a rubbish bolt.
The bolt in Rockthreegozy's link is a grade 10.9 bolt which means heat treated alloy steel. It will be plenty strong enough.
Posted 2 years ago #
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