UKIP, the by-elections and Labour

The Thatcher years when a hated PM was put against Neil Kinnock and Micheal Foot

Clearly, not by enough voters to lose…

Labour is not being complacent over UKIP Labour will work hard to show disaffected voters why Labour is the right choice.

…and now for the tractor production statistics.

THE LABOUR PARTY VOTE INCREASED

The other thing being missed in all this pro labour cherry picking is that before Labour had no credibile challenger in this type of seat. The Torys and Lib Dems split the challenge but neither had a hope of getting close to Labour.

UKIP have managed to unite a credible band of desperate voters who have got within a wisker of ousting Labour in a previously safe seat.

UKIP have managed to be all things to all people hence their ability to challenge the Tories in their safe seats and Labour in theirs.

For the low income working poor they are promising to curb imigration and raise tax thresholds, this addresses the two things these people are most concerned about, cheap foreign labour suppressing wages and “taking their jobs” and the increasing cost of living outstripping wage increase.

For the Tory voting NIMBYS they are out Torying the Torys with their “I’m alright guv” attitude.

They are the Leb Dems without the shackles of a namby pamby liberal outlook and therefore apeal to people disolusioned by the two main parties but unwilling to vote liberal due to their narrow appeal.

They are political opertunists unburdened by the need to have coherent policies that would actually work in power so can just play to the crowd. A coalition would be the best way to get rid of them as their polices get chewed up and spat out and their poularity would dive, just like the Lib Dems.

Labour is not being complacent over UKIP Labour will work hard to show disaffected voters why Labour is the right choice.

Has Ed Miliband joined the forum?

A UKIP/Tory coalition could result in leaving the EU, and the parties combining to form a new party, or alliance of parties, that stays in power for a generation. Don’t assume that coalition would destroy UKIP… they may have a long game that is about reframing right wing politics in the UK, or more precisely England. Having ex-Tory MPs helps make this future possible. The next coalition could be VERY different to the current beast.

Any road up, whatever happens, it’s not bringing the Republic any nearer. 🙁

A UKIP/Tory coalition

Would be a truly terrifying concept, it would make the Republican Party look quite moderate.

OK. I’ll ask. Why is that “terrifying” exactly?

The moment when that woman who was dismissed as a Bigot by GB was a seminal point in history!

She was a bigot. What’s the problem?

Labour is not being complacent over UKIP Labour will work hard to show disaffected voters why Labour is the right choice.

And those multiple reasons to get excited about, and vote labour would be……?

Erm……

You may not of noticed but in Dwayne Dibley’s towering masterpiece of a conference speech only a couple of weeks ago, he offered the grand sum of **** all reasons to even consider voting labour. Other than ‘vote for us. we’re not the Tories. Well… not officially’

And as a result of that, he yesterday presided over a massive majority in a nailed-on safe labour seat reduced to 600 by a bunch of rabid right wing nut jobs. Way to go Ed. You muppet!!!

It actually makes me really bloody angry that in the face of the most right wing, self-serving government this country has ever seen, with working peoples living standards falling year on year, we have an ‘opposition’ that is so utterly clueless and devoid of ideas, that it can’t even land a blow on Dave and his gang of chums. Its pathetic!!!

UKIP / Tory coalition. Can imagine the Tories in 5 years time bleating how they’ve curbed the worst excesses of the UKIP manifesto promises.. 🙂

That leads me to think they are more of a problem for the Tories than Labour…Tory fanboys clutching at straws to try and deflect from the hell of beating you took last night with another one to come.

TBH you’re coming across as a Labour fanboy whose first instinct is whataboutery. Every woman and her dog knows that UKIP is bad news for the Tories. There is no-one who is denying they’re a bigger problem for the Tories than for Labour – but there are plenty who are denying that UKIP is also very bad news for Labour.

They are political opertunists unburdened by the need to have coherent policies that would actually work in power so can just play to the crowd

Well I read the Guardian article somebody linked to earler. Aside from the fact the numbers probably don’t add up, it seemed as coherent as any other party to me.

Why are UKIPs policies any less likely to work than the policies of any of the major parties?

She was a bigot. What’s the problem?

Yup, I thought Brown’s mistake was not sticking to his guns.

“Only a vote for Labour stops the Tories”
“Only a vote for the Tories stops Labour”

This empty politics isn’t a surprise.
Encouraging positive voting, with positive politics, is pointless when most people have to vote to “stop” the main party they dislike most.
Still, we rejected even a modest change to the voting system, so ultimately, it’s our fault.

They are political opertunists unburdened by the need to have coherent policies that would actually work in power so can just play to the crowd

They’re not alone in that. At the recent conferences, all the major parties have made promises of tax cuts, without feeling the need to explain where the money to fund these would be coming from. Cloud cuckoo-land economics. So why wouldn’t UKIP join in?

Footflaps – a UKIP/Tory government wouldn’t be a radical government. It would be ineffective beyond an EU referendum – they’d be too distracted and busy ripping each other apart.

The moment when that woman who was dismissed as a Bigot by GB was a seminal point in history!

She was a bigot. What’s the problem?

She wasn’t a bigot. She was just not very articulate.

In which case why are we beating up the LibDems for doing something that will become the norm.

The campaign language will change. As I keep saying, this is a huge issue. Currently the parties are forced to say “WE WILL DO THIS!” and then when it turns out they can’t due to X, Y, and Z they get ripped to bits and the electorate hate them. This always happens.

What they need to say is “We stand for this” and “Our aim is to do this”. And then if they can’t, they need to be up front about why. Frequent coalition govts would force this to happen imo.

UKIP / Tory coalition. Can imagine the Tories in 5 years time bleating how they’ve curbed the worst excesses of the UKIP manifesto promises..

Or maybe UKIP bleating about how they’ve curbed the worst (liberal) excesses of the Tory manifesto!

Surprisingly I don’t think it’s yet been mentioned on this thread, and nor does it come up all that much in UKIP discussion, but UKIP is clearly now the Daily Mail party. The significance of this is that quite a lot of people you’d expect to be core Labour voters read the DM.

Yes Labour has not got any policies.

It hasn’t committed to forming an integrated health and social care system.

Hasn’t committed to fundamentally changing the way our dysfunctional energy market works.

Hasn’t committed to a jobs guarantee program for those young people who have been out of work for a year or more.

Hasn’t committed to a significant increase in the minimum wage.

Hasn’t committed to create a new nationwide apprenticeship and vocational training programme.

Hasn’t committed to the reintroduce the 10p rate of tax.

Hasn’t committed to build 200,000 houses a year in the next parliament.

She was a bigot. What’s the problem?

was she? or was she a voter with a valid concern? do you change her mind by dismissing her and calling her a biggot? why have Ed and co stated publically that they got the immigration policies wrong that she was complaining about?

Way to go Ed. You muppet!!!

he is more an Aardmann character than a muppet

She was a bigot. What’s the problem?

Why was she a bigot ?

Was it because she articulated her concerns in a way that didn’t fit in with PC speak ?

Do you know the woman ?

+1

She mentioned, oh the horror, “immigration”.

It hasn’t committed to forming an integrated health and social care system.

a good idea, shame it’s Burnham’s as he is going to end up going when the full Mid Staffs (and others) disaster get put at his feet

Hasn’t committed to fundamentally changing the way our dysfunctional energy market works.

shame it will lead to higher prices as everyone will just charge the “cap” to hedge future wholesale price issues, and also lead to under investment in new staions and network

Hasn’t committed to a jobs guarantee program for those young people who have been out of work for a year or more.

everyone has something similar

Hasn’t committed to a significant increase in the minimum wage.

my personal view is that GO is sat on a higher increase in the next conservative manifesto to be announced the day after Labour go to prnt with theirs

Hasn’t committed to create a new nationwide apprenticeship and vocational training programme.

new name, same stuff

Hasn’t committed to the reintroduce the 10p rate of tax.

tax fiddling just like Gordon who brought it in and then took it away

Hasn’t committed to build 200,000 houses a year in the next parliament.

who is building these, nasty private companies or local authorities/ housing associations?

+1

She mentioned, oh the horror, “immigration”.

Indeed….and if she is a Bigot, there’s a hell of a lot of ’em and they all vote!

Indeed….and if she is a Bigot, there’s a hell of a lot of ’em and they all vote!

Yup.

@jfletch, well said. What I have been trying to say.

@binners is this government really more right wing those of the Thatcher era ? We’ve had those lovely cuddly Lib Dems to soften everything surely ?

EDIT: also I endorse the comment made by @Roackape about Brown’s comment being a turning point. He and the Labour party should have sat up and taken notice.

Hasn’t committed to build 200,000 houses a year in the next parliament.

Interesting. If they’ve not made such soundbite commitments which just result in the wrong houses being built in the wrong places then I might consider voting for them. Presumably unlike the Tories they’re not being successfully lobbied by the big housebuilding companies, who are the ones ultimately profiting from such commitments?

Why was she a bigot ?
Was it because she articulated her concerns in a way that didn’t fit in with PC speak ?

This is one of the labour parties core problems. Even mentioning the ‘I’ word has their Islington Guardianista sensibilities recoiling in horror, wetting themselves. Gordon Browns attitude typifies their approach to it. But in its core constituencies (not Islington) immigration is a major issue to a lot of people. In areas of the country with mass youth unemployment, that hasn’t seen a sniff of the supposed ‘economic recovery’, large scale immigration is genuinely driving down wages. And placing genuine strains on local services that have been cut to the bone already.

This isn’t right wing scaremongering. This is the reality on the ground.

But labour absolutely refuses to even engage with the issue. Never mind actually address it. It buries its head in the sand and repeats the mantra that ‘immigration is always a benefit’. Well it might be if you’re middle class, and your Polish cleaner and Latvian nanny come at very reasonable rates. Not so great if you’re an unskilled school leaver in Rochdale and just can’t get a job, because some firms, by default, just get immigrants in, without even advertising positions locally

Farage, on the other hand… he’ll talk about it all day. Loves it! Thrives on it. And now he’s seeing he can reap the rewards in previously impenetrable Labour strongholds. Expect UKIP to be hammering those self-same Labour Strongholds with their anti-immigrant message between now and may. Have you seen Todays contribution from him?

Its worth bearing in mind too that Heywood is right next to Middleton. Rightly or wrongly, the general perception is that a blind eye was turned to Asian men systematically abusing white girls, while the (Labour) authorities did nothing, for fear of being accused of racism, and simply let this happen. Same in Rotherham.

Do you think any of the UKIP canvassers will be shy of pointing this out? What do you think?

Until labour starts engaging with its core vote – no matter how distasteful it finds its ‘bigoted’ views – then it’ll continue to haemorrhage votes to UKIP

Binners exactly !

Farage said today all he wants is the same immigration policies as 190 other countries, doesn’t sound quite so bigoted and racist does it ? He’s not afraid to speak out on the issue whilst the other parties pussy foot around leaving a gaping void for him to fill. The other parties will have to respond as the issue is not going to go away between now and May 2015

IMO the left wing parties are generally pro-immigration as that group tend to be “working class” and generally vote for the left. Political pragmatism.

Are all immigrants a net benefit to the country? No.
Are all people born in the UK a net benefit to the country? No.

Lumping all immigrants into a big catch all “problem” that needs addressing, is like lumping all people into a group that needs solving. Play the ball instead… having a schools policy that creates new places, where they are needed, quickly would be a start. Having a housing policy that builds for people, not developers, would be a start. Addressing our rush to a low wage ecomony, would be a start. These are problems that need addressing for everyone, they are not specific to immigrants in any way.

Nobody is disputing what you’re saying Kelvin. You’re bang on! But Labour constantly runs scared of even discussing it. Leaving Farage to offer ridiculously simplistic answers to what are complex social problems for the whole of society, but more so for working class voters, who lest we forget, the Labour party claims to represent

Binners exactly !

+ 1

Labour doesn’t run scared of the issues the problem is no one listens to complex solutions.

Finding the language to address the concerns of the ignorant, without offering simple solutions, is damn hard. You have to start by remembering that ignorance is not a crime, and is so often not the individual’s fault, but the fault of society as a whole. Calling someone a “bigot” because they spout views that can be read in just about any paper on the newstand is a big mistake, as their views are pretty mainstream now, even if based on ignorance. This is where Gordon Brown went wrong. Oh, and trusting Sky to put a microphone on him… that was crazily naive!

I disagree that Labour don’t talk about the things that people care about, and that UKIP address, it’s just that they haven’t found the language and ideas to address those things. Nobody has. Partly because it takes admitting that the problems need to be addressed by people outside, as much as inside, “politics”.

Hmmm, troll or Ed Balls ?

It’s the truth anyone in politics knows it. The media and public like simple messages

Labour doesn’t run scared of the issues the problem is no one listens to complex solutions.

Please explain the complex solution (genuine question)

jambalaya – Member

Please explain the complex solution (genuine question)

On immigration or remaining in the EU?

Immigration

As an aside, I run a Commercial fit out company and employ only English labour from various areas on my sites. However I was let down by some Decorators who didn’t turn up one morning (due to some ‘issues’), not for the first time by the way. Anyway I called someone who sent me two English speaking Eastern European Decorators at £25 per day cheaper than I was paying and they are the best Decorators I’ve ever had.

Not sure where that fits into the debate, but thought I’d mention it! 🙂