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Trail side vandals

54 posts & 26 voices | Started 1 year ago by grahamh | Latest reply from epicyclo

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Braveheart !!!!

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surfer - Member

The hills are for everyone, not just the superior people with outstanding navigation skills. Cairns serve a useful purpose - especially in winter - which becomes more obvious when the visibility draws in.

Cairns serve a useful purpose which is exactly why creating new ones because youve managed to walk 100yds from the car park is not a good idea and should be discouraged. This would then leave those that exist on a map, hence their usefullness!

I have taken stones off cairns when I have seen them placed there after being taken from the path.
Unlike you I dont jump to conclusions.

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

surfer - Member
Cairns serve a useful purpose which is exactly why creating new ones because youve managed to walk 100yds from the car park is not a good idea and should be discouraged. This would then leave those that exist on a map, hence their usefullness!

Ah, I see where I'm going wrong. Carpark, 100 yards, etc, I didn't realise how navigationally challenged some folk are.

A cairn is useful whether or not it exists on a map. I wouldn't expect to find a given cairn on a map, but if it does, then that makes the map more useful.

Don't you recognise the shape of a cairn when you're on the mountain? Shape, height, individual rock features, distance from the path etc. If you've been past it before, you should recognise it and know where you are. When snow and mist change the face of the landscape, cairns are a godsend.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

Ah, I see where I'm going wrong. Carpark, 100 yards, etc, I didn't realise how navigationally challenged some folk are.

What is your point?

A cairn is useful whether or not it exists on a map. I wouldn't expect to find a given cairn on a map, but if it does, then that makes the map more useful.

A cairn is a pile of stones, what use does it have to someone unfamiliar with the area unless it also exists on a map to confirm your position?

Don't you recognise the shape of a cairn when you're on the mountain? Shape, height, individual rock features, distance from the path etc. If you've been past it before, you should recognise it and know where you are. When snow and mist change the face of the landscape, cairns are a godsend.

But if you have been there before you would not necessarily need the cairn in the first place! if you recognise the shape of a cairn then you would likely recognise other more unique features of the area/path and although it may not occur to you given what you have said but what if you are not on first name terms with the cairn in question and, heaven forbid you are actually in an area that is unfamiliar (this bit is called navigation!)

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

surfer - Member
...But if you have been there before you would not necessarily need the cairn in the first place! if you recognise the shape of a cairn then you would likely recognise other more unique features of the area/path

You don't need cairns in conditions of perfect visibility which is when most visitors are on the mountains.

Let's go back to the points of visibility, eg snow & mist. The whole landscape can and does look totally different and you can't see far enough for the usual major visual clues, eg shape of terrain etc. A path can totally disappear with a few inches of snow. (A few feet of snow and you have an entirely different problem). Or you can be off in the heather away from the track, and the sight of a cairn will tell you where it is.

If you are in a new area, then you should be taking note of cairns you are passing. If visibility then gets compromised, you have to be a real numpty to keep going, but you can use the cairns to get back, and probably will, even if you do have a map.

Or how about I don't interfere in your method of navigation, and you don't destroy mine?

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

Or you can be off in the heather away from the track, and the sight of a cairn will tell you where it is.

I'm not sure if you are trolling but I'll try again.
If you have never been there how would you recognise the cairn from one of a dozen other piles of stones nearby?
The only way you can rely on a cairn (if you are new to an area) is if it is marked on a map. If it is one of many nearby then that benefit is lost, hence why those not on a map shouldnt exist.

If you are in a new area, then you should be taking note of cairns you are passing.

Thats fine if you are returning the same way but on your outward journey helps not one bit!

I wont destroy your method of navigation (although you may need more than one!) but I will continue to knock over or dismantle those that are created by walkers along the most popular routes. Hopefully you can see how me doing the latter helps you with the former.

Posted 1 year ago #
elliptic - Member

Sigh...

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2008/11/13/nevis-cairns-job-done-now-leave-ben-in-peace-pleads-trust

Not all cairns are useful. Even in Scotland.

Posted 1 year ago #
Lifer - Member

“These cairns should not be used as a primary feature for navigation,” he said. “There is no substitute for a map and compass, and if you are not confident with your navigation skills, do not attempt to walk to the summit of Ben Nevis in poor weather. The cairns are spaced too widely apart to be followed in poor visibility.”

What a sensible man!

Posted 1 year ago #
7hz - Member

Whatever happened to 'take photos, leave footprints'?

Why do people feel the need to start erecting things in the wilderness?

If you are walking in the mountains, you should be following a map and using a compass. Random piles of rocks are for muppets.

Posted 1 year ago #
ahwiles - Member

Andy Goldsworthy - what a c*nt.

one of the most thought provoking artists i know of. and mostly, it's just piles of rocks.

(and twigs)

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

7hz - Member
...Why do people feel the need to start erecting things in the wilderness?

It is NOT a wilderness. It is part of an ancient country that was forcibly depopulated in recent times.

Cairns are the traditional waymarkers. They are not random piles of rocks. They are part of our landscape, mark routes effectively, and have worked for thousands of years.

If you are serious about removing them, why not start by removing signposts on trails first - they are more artificial. (I am not suggesting this, just wondering why the more natural method is suddenly a target).

Posted 1 year ago #
Ambrose - Member

I rather like the idea that some people are reliant upon cairns for navigation, although we have strayed from the OP's point I think. Those who need cairns will hopefully leave the empty places alone because they can't find them. A selfish attitude by myself? - yes.

I think the OP was moaning that the little stone piles at GC had gone. He liked them as dare I say it, sculpture?

Posted 1 year ago #
duckman - Member

Err...The places where the cairns are were not really
forcibly depopulated
Nobody who worked on the land had any reason to go to the top of most Munroes for the simple reason that there is no grazing, so not sure about them being traditional.They are also a recent issue,nobody was building them in the 80's.Mind you,in the 80's there were 800 compleaters, now there are what 6,000? Maybe a symptom of the increased use,people want to leave a memory on the hill.Still to see one on the Liathach traverse,mind.

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

If this is just about cairns at the top of Munros, then I'd agree with you.

Posted 1 year ago #
7hz - Member

epicyclo - rather than me continue with my side of the debate, I refer you to an already decided debate between knowledgeable parties where there was split opinion and an interesting swing pre and post debate - http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mag_sm24_page2.asp

Posted 1 year ago #
druidh - Member

It's about numerous cairns leading to the top of various summits. As Duckman points out, our ancestors were too damn smart to get involved in walking to the top of every pimple on the horizon and the best paths and most commonly used routes would be through the hills, not over them. The most popular hills now have paths that didn't exist 40 years ago (or even 20), so the idea that they were some form of ancient highway is just wrong.

I don't see what is elitist about buying and using a map and compass and gaining the skills to use them. I learnt this as a 10-year old. It's more elitist to suggest that the hills should only be used by the current inhabitants of the area and not the "leisure classes". Tourists spend money too you know.

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

druidh - Member
...The most popular hills now have paths that didn't exist 40 years ago (or even 20), so the idea that they were some form of ancient highway is just wrong.

I don't see what is elitist about buying and using a map and compass and gaining the skills to use them. I learnt this as a 10-year old.

Paths changed as destinations changed - an organic process.

The elitist reference was to people using map & compass calling those who used cairns for navigation "idiots".

I do tend to bite when parts of the country from which my family were forcibly cleared is called wilderness though - it's depopulated, not wilderness, and removing the human traces is just finishing the job. I also don't see any advantage to a community from going from a self-sufficient crofting community to providing low paid servants for the tourism industry.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

Paths changed as destinations changed - an organic process

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. What I and many people object to is the creating of small (and sometimes large) cairns along established paths. Those that exist for navigation purposes and are refered to on maps should be used as reference points in bad weather.
The creation of another 10 of them on the way up a small hill from the car park is unwelcome for the reasons I have already explained.

1: confusion for those trying to navigate in bad weather
2: erosion of footpaths as they are usually built from the stones that have been painstakingly placed there to reduce the damage of many feet on a well walked path.

Posted 1 year ago #
7hz - Member

epicyclo - I do tend to bite when parts of the country from which my family were forcibly cleared is called wilderness though - it's depopulated, not wilderness, and removing the human traces is just finishing the job. I also don't see any advantage to a community from going from a self-sufficient crofting community to providing low paid servants for the tourism industry.

If the feudal system was still happening and your family were tending to your cows, I suspect you'd be complaining about being very low paid LITERAL servants for the cattle industry (without a choice in the matter). The past is not chocolate box perfect.

Also, I haven't a clue what all this has to to with the modern proliferation of cairns up hills, built by the 'tourist classes' you seem to so despise? Clearing piles of rocks built over 20 years by tourists is not 'finishing the job' the highland clearances started!

Please get off the soap box, and have a word with yourself - thanks.

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

I've got a funny feeling that we are talking about different things.

I have never seen cairns built as closely together as you claim - I don't see any point in going to the heavily trafficked tourist routes when there is so much else available. What happens on the tourist routes is all disneyland anyway, so I suppose remove the cairns and pretend it's wilderness and untouched by human hand. Perhaps a few plastic bagpipers would be better waymarkers

In the meantime, leave the other cairns alone. They belong.

Posted 1 year ago #