Viewing 28 posts - 1 through 28 (of 28 total)
  • Trail Cycle Leader – any tips on Route Cards?
  • agentdagnamit
    Free Member

    Seems like the 2 parts of the TCL assessment that get people worried are Track Stands and preparing route cards.

    Personally, route cards seem a bit like not crossing your hands on a driving test, you just do it to pass and then forget about it. Personally, I’d always use a map + gps occassionally (and wouldnt be guiding clients on a route I didnt know).

    But, as I have my assessment coming up, does anyone have tips on what worked for them, or whether they ever found any use for them afterwards? I guess everyone agrees that the template in the (S)MBLA training manual is useless….

    stevenmenmuir
    Free Member

    Put as much or as little info down as you need. The point of a route card is so that you don’t waste lots of time looking at a Mao just to see if you have to turn left or right at a T junction etc. They are fairly redundant if you have the route on your GPS. As you have to do one anyway, assuming you’ve looked at the route on Google earth or similar, I think its handy to make notes about the terrain. For example if you find yourself not on an obvious path you can check your route card to see if that should be the case ie stay on obvious path or no obvious path for x km.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    with memories from D of E and meeting a few MBL riders & assesors

    Route planning is about knowing where you are, where you are going and how to get out. Knowing that from point F you need to continue or turn back in event of an emergency is important. Having your alternatives and shortcuts so that they are available to you if required such as the group is not as technical as they all said they were (from the forum) and you know there is a section you would rather avoid it should give you a turn off or if they are all going a lot slower (fitness/mechanical) when do you bail or when is your last point to bail before committing to something epic.

    This is what I’d expect from a route card for an organised trip (not accessing or taken the course but adding some common sense as to why you would use them)

    Mounty_73
    Full Member

    I just downloaded a template from the web, using grid references, distances etc.

    Also (for the assessment) adding things like number of riders in group, emergency contact details, time of departure, estimated return time etc.

    I know someone who leaves all the info with his car, for that ‘just in case’ trip. I do however leave details at home with my partner when going out.

    I often take a map/route out with me, highlighting the planned route and other short cuts throughout the route etc.

    But just use whatever info you think you will need….since my TCL I have never used a ‘route card’, but I do test run/ride before taking a group out.

    Mounty_73
    Full Member

    Seems like the 2 parts of the TCL assessment that get people worried are Track Stands and preparing route cards.

    Very true! 😉

    3 of us were practicing a week before, even though I have been riding for over 20 years!

    agentdagnamit
    Free Member

    Luckily I can track stand indefinitely.

    mikewsmith – good points, but I would use an OS map for all of that. But I’ll obviously go along with it for the assessment.

    mounty – that’s good advice, use the route card for other stuff you might forget under the pressure of an assessment – gear check, bike checks, number of riders (good one!).

    devs
    Free Member

    Why are you doing TCL? It is being binned. Very soon it will be a non qualification. The point of route cards is to interpret OS maps and your time/distance judgement. Done properly you shouldn’t need to look at the map at all on a ride. Like most people though, I binned them after my assessment and tend to follow my nose 🙂

    somouk
    Free Member

    Why are you doing TCL? It is being binned.

    I was about to start TCL, any more info on its replacement?

    devs
    Free Member

    No but BC will have. It’s not as if there isn’t enough confusion in mountain biking about governing bodies and qualifications. It seems to me that it’s a job creation and money making scheme to no real end. Also, as nobody will have the new qualification, then nobody will be qualified to run guiding sessions. Madness. I’ve not looked into it at all as I really can’t be arsed chasing the goal posts that they keep moving but I’ve heard that if you aren’t doing TCL training already then you won’t get any and your assessment will have to be done by next Apr.

    agentdagnamit
    Free Member

    devs is wrong, the TCL will give you BC level 1 and 2 equivalent, for the time being at least. Nice stw-esque posting though.

    I wasnt planning to “follow my nose” when guiding customers next season though, not what I’d expect from a guide.

    somouk – the market is a bit of a mess, MBLA, CTC, British Cycling and at least one other. The MBLA (previously SMBLA) werre always widely regarded, and are being transferred / taken over (chose your phrase) by BC, but they will continue to recognise existing (S)MBLA qualifications.

    agentdagnamit
    Free Member

    …plus, as the French arent really recognising any of our qualifications, then one’s as good as another if you are planning on working over there.

    devs
    Free Member

    I wasnt planning to “follow my nose” when guiding customers next season though, not what I’d expect from a guide.

    If a guide had to refer to route cards I’d want my money back! I know every inch of the trails I’d take any punter, paying or otherwise on. I’d know every bail out point and every alternative in case of inclement weather or unforeseen trail conditions. If I didn’t I wouldn’t be taking them out. Sometimes you just got to change with circumstances. Notwithstanding all that, the comment you replied to was about my personal riding/exploring. If you really write route cards out for yours – well done, I’ve got better things to do.
    As far as the transference of quals go, I was just relaying what some very pissed off pals were telling me after shelling out lots for all of the MBLA quals and bolt ons. MBLA UPDATE clears things up but there is no guarantee that existing TCLs/MBLAs will be automatically given the new awards once the old standards are finally retired (probably in 2015). That is the issue I believe, someone paying for the courses and quals now may still have to do it again.
    I’m now off to deal with the embarrassment of being called STW-esque. Great shadow of shame has fallen on house of devs 🙁

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    If a guide had to refer to route cards I’d want my money back! I know every inch of the trails I’d take any punter, paying or otherwise on. I’d know every bail out point and every alternative in case of inclement weather or unforeseen trail conditions. If I didn’t I wouldn’t be taking them out.

    Then there are people who are not guiding in their back yard, the skills should be there to make sure you can work outside of somewhere you know like the back of your hand. I wouldn’t knock anyone for referring back to their route card, got to be the easiest way to tell someone how far it is, what the next climb is like etc. It should also give you a back up in case your memory isn’t right.

    The other thing to remember is when something goes wrong and you end up being sued having some kind of record as to why you did something a certain way and having an assessment of the route, choices & emergency options might be useful.

    andy7t2
    Free Member

    I still do routecards when taking groups out but just to leave with the home base contact so they know my route. Once you’ve got a few routes sorted out you just keep using the same cards

    flatfish
    Free Member

    So if you’ve got a TCL already, is it going to be worthless within the new BC system.?

    singletracksurfer
    Full Member

    hmm, so whats the best qualification to do in peoples opinion then?

    I was hoping the article in STW was going to shed some light, but there wasn’t anything to definitive – but did say CTC if its your job.

    stevenmenmuir
    Free Member

    So devs. Somebody takes you out for a great days riding, fixes your bike when you break it, gives you something to eat when you run out and patches you up when you fall off and you say “I want my money back because you looked at a route card a couple of times.” Jeez. The talk when I did my MBL a couple of weeks ago was that if you have TCL or MBL you WILL get the equivalent new award. There are too many people with the old ones to expect them to do a new course and assessment. We would struggle to keep our kids club going if everybody had to give up more of their time to requalify.

    devs
    Free Member

    That’s the issue stevenmenmuir, BC will not guarantee it. Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just relaying the concerns of others after they have been in correspondence with BC and not got the reassurance they required.
    Now you would think and hope that common sense would prevail and that they will transfer the quals or continue to recognise TCL/MBLA indefinitely but common sense won’t make them any money and that is why people are suspicious.
    As far as the scenario you presented goes, it would never happen. A guide who doesn’t know the area is pointless. A rucksack full of food and kit does not a guide session make.
    I realise that people guide in areas other than their local area but if I was doing it, I would have ridden any proposed route at least twice before myself. I wouldn’t allow myself to be put in a scenario where I was “guiding” where I didn’t know where I was going.
    As far as the sue thing goes then the route, and bale out points and alternatives would all be done in the ride risk assessment before hand. Don’t get me wrong, I think route cards are excellent and I’m not against them per se, I just wouldn’t want a guide who needed them. All the nav skills should IMHO be part of the planning of the route and pre riding of it.
    If you would be happy to take people’s money whilst you familiarise yourself with an area just because you have some sweeties and tubes then that’s fine, fire on. I’d like to provide a slightly better service than that, not that I’ll ever do it as a job.

    rusty90
    Free Member

    I did the BC MBLA2 this year and can assure you that there’s a lot more involved than carrying some sweeties and tubes! It’s not about guiding, it’s about leadership, based on the long running Mountain Leader award, and is designed to impart the skills necessary to lead a group somewhere you don’t know like the back of your hand. A big difference.
    Route cards are useful IMO because the actual exercise of preparing them is useful in itself – where are the hazards, escape routes, stopping points etc – and because whilst you may not need them they can be invaluable if things go wrong.
    The current mess of similar but competing qualifications is a pain, but BC are attempting to unify them all, and have the clout and financial backing to do so (or take over the world depending on your viewpoint 🙂 )

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    As far as the scenario you presented goes, it would never happen. A guide who doesn’t know the area is pointless. A rucksack full of food and kit does not a guide session make.

    You should probably go and meet some climbing guides. You learn how to be safe not repeat you local route.

    devs
    Free Member

    A climbing guide who doesn’t know where he is going is not safe. Apart from that I fail to see the relevance. Did you actually read any of the thread? Do climbing guides make their first ascent of a route with a bunch of paying n00bs? Safe as houses that. I do actually know some climbing guides from my rugby and skiing days. I might even see one this weekend, what should I be asking him?

    stevenmenmuir
    Free Member

    I’m not sure I’d be happy going out with somebody that was only happy taking you out somewhere they had ridden at least a couple of times before. I use a garmin on routes I’ve not ridden before, plotting the route out with something like bikehike. This gives you the chance to note river crossings or where the path may be indistinct. Doesn’t take much longer to do a route card as well which you then have as back up. With a map and compass as back up to those. Now you might go explore an area many miles from home and think to yourself this would be a great place to bring someone. It might not be possible to go back and ride it again. But with the right planning you can still take somebody out for a great ride. I’d rather someone stopped and checked a route card a couple of times than said I know this great ride but I’ve only ridden it once before so I can’t take you. I could take you out for a ride and check a route card without you even being aware of it and if the ride flows nicely without us getting lost or lots of stopping what does it matter if I’ve used a route card. As for BC, whose to say they won’t change the goalposts again in a few years time. Politics innit.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    my point is knowing where you are going and having done the route 100 times and being a good guide are not the same thing, a good guide should be able to handle things that come at them and what they find, part of that is preparation.

    A good guide with a bag full of food and some good prep can make a great trip.

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    Do climbing guides make their first ascent of a route with a bunch of paying n00bs?

    Yes, often.

    As well as being a bike guide, I’m also a mountain leader and snowboard instructor. I wouldn’t hesitate to take people up a mountain I hadn’t climbed before or to lead a group of snowboarders down an off-piste descent I hadn’t done before. I have to admit, I really don’t like taking mountain-bikers to places I haven’t been before just because it’s so hard to judge what a trail is like from maps. A trail can have a mellow gradient, be very clear on the map, but on the ground it can be super-technical due to the nature of the surface or simply not be rideable because it’s too overgrown, narrow, etc. This doesn’t really happen so much with other outdoors sports.

    I will occasionally take people on a new trial if I have a very good recommendation from someone who’s judgement I trust.

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    Oh, and I think there’s already official recognition of TCL/MBL within the British Cycling qualis?

    devs
    Free Member

    Oh, and I think there’s already official recognition of TCL/MBL within the British Cycling qualis?

    That’s the whole point. It’s accepted just now and “for the foreseeable future” but there will no further courses after next year. If you ask BC whether people who hold TCL/MBLA will definitely not have to retrain and qualify then they will not give you a definite no. Don’t be surprised if, after 2015, TCL/MBLA are no longer recognised and accepted.
    I think you are also confusing mountain leader with a climbing guide. A mountain leader isn’t qualified to do that. Do you take groups up pitches all roped up? And if so would you do it without checking it out first?
    Anyways, it really _is_ all getting STWesque. Route cards are good. Google some and work out what’s best for you. The MOST important thing I found was the judgement of distance over time and using your cycle computer to know when the next turn off should be. In thick forests they can all look the same 🙁

    psling
    Free Member

    I used to take courses and carry out assessments for one of the older-established MTB Leader awards; most attendees in the early days were people working or looking to work in Education/Outdoor Activities/Services but as time went on more and more attendees were MTBers looking to formalise some of their existing leisure activity.

    To my mind, that is a major change as MTBing has become more widespread and popular; more experienced riders are seeking formal qualifications thinking of them as just an extension of their existing riding. IME, some of the best riders have had the least ability to manage a group, especially a group of lesser riders.

    That is why things like understanding and being able to produce such things as route cards and being able to produce a proper risk assessment are often disregarded as not really necessary because ‘I’m a good rider’ or ‘I know the area like the back of my hand’.
    Which misses the point entirely. If you are not able to (or indeed not prepared to) take on the responsibilities of carrying out the management required by the role properly then you probably shouldn’t be awarded the qualification.

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    I think you are also confusing mountain leader with a climbing guide. A mountain leader isn’t qualified to do that. Do you take groups up pitches all roped up? And if so would you do it without checking it out first?

    No, I’m very much not.

    Mountain Guides will most certainly take people on a route that they haven’t previously done themselves. Climbing Instructors (slightly different thing again) most definitely will. I’m not suggesting they would take a client on an un-tested route that was near to their own technical limit.

    It helps that climbs/routes are generally graded and described in guide-books.

    It would be more unusual for a guide to take a client on a completely new route, but its not at all unheard of. E.g. an amateur expedition to climb a new peak in the Himalaya might well emply a guide (and yes, people do this – plenty of unclimbed 6,000m+ peaks hiding out there in the remoter parts of the Himalaya).

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