1) its not the vast majority of bike riders 16% in a recent survey and IME less than that
2) all road users are liable in the same way if caught Motorised or not.
How many car drivers do you see leaving adequate room? Obeying speed limits? using mobile phones? Using indicators and mirrors properly?
IME car drivers are far less likely to obey the highway code. Zero tolereance? all for it. No cars left on the roads on a few weeks. A car driven within the highway code is a very rare thing in deed
How many folk killed by cyclists? How many killed by cars.
Was in that there London the other week on a quiet Sunday travelling from London City Airport to Canning Town.Even the bus I was on went through two red lights
there are unquestionably places where it is safer to RLJ. then I will do it.
I'm struggling to think of one. It is late, but I can't seem to think of any time I'd rather RLJ, especially when you consider the latent hatred and anger it causes towards all of us which plays out in real-world incidents of cars purposefully causing danger to cyclists.
You are coming off a cyle path thru a park. You get a green light at the same time as the cars from your right. Notice the parked cars ahead inthe cycle lane adn all the cars from your right want to go to the left lane. After the next junction I want to turn right.;
If I wait for the green as I reach the road the cars from my right are all swinging across in front of me despite my right of way and the cycle lane is almost always blocked with illegally parked cars - so I have to go along the road with cars coming from my right and squishing me into the kerb. at the next junction I have to get to the rightside of traffic and make a right turn. I have been run into a parked car hereby a car that came frommy right and simply changed lanes into me.
If I go on the red but when I can see the traffic from my left is clear I get a free run down to the next unction with no cars trying to squish me, I am at the front at the next junction so can make my right turn easily.
If there is no parked cars I will usually wait but its very rare there are not illegally parked cars one side or the other
edit
In this pic http://g.co/maps/5f5w9 yo can see the issue more clearly - I would be merging from the left there - there should be two lanes worth of room but look at where the cars are.
people get shouted at for RLJing there even if you wait for the green as cars from the right do not believe you got a green and the right of way
But as I said in my post, if the cars followed the rules and common sense on the road you shouldn't need to act illegally. Which has been my point all along - if all road users showed respect for the rules and each other we wouldn't have 99.9% these problems. And I don't think selecting which laws to obey and which not to is a viable option - you can't whine about illegally parked cars if you illegally run reds.
Purely pragmatic - its safer for me in that situation to go on the red. cars do not follow the rules of the road - I am all for zero tolerance - the roads would be car free in a couple of weeks. Just look at those pic and see - every car is in breach of the highway code - every single one.
edit - you said yo couldn't think of an instance when its safer to run a red - well there is one. I can see a hundred yards to my left where any cars would be coming from.
I do have some sympathy with the way Hammy feels, but not with his proposed methods of addressing the issues.
I spent a few days in Glasgow last year. One morning I sat at the hotel's bacony and enjoyed a coffee and a tab. I was surprised (my blood didn't boil and neither did my urine approach boiling point, my gast wasn't flabbered and I had no desire to change the laws of the land) by the huge shoals of cyclists running the red light of the pedestrian crossing below the balcony.
As a cyclist, it was embarassing. Cyclists were weaving between pedestrians through a red light - not one of them stopped. The next day was the same, and the next.
OK, so it seemed to be the accepted way of getting around - it's been normalised, drivers, cyclists and peds all expect it. Doesn't make it right.
he vast majority of both commuting and pleasure cyclists treat the road as their own private track. Sod red lights, give ways, solid white lines, paths and the rest.
May be different where you live, but round here it is a pretty small minority of muppets that ignore it to that extent. The majority of commuting and pleasure cyclists I see on the roads are pretty law abiding.
There should be no exemption at all - there isn't for vehicles so why should there be for cycles?
There isn't? What is it you think cyclists are exempt from exactly?
The laws applicable to all road users equally apply to cyclists.
sit with a coffee near any junction in any major city/town and watch how many break the law.
Yep. And I'm afraid you are likely to see far more drivers breaking the law than cyclists.
Why complain cyclists are "exempt" when those drivers are untouched and causing considerably more danger with their actions?
Jumping red lights in particular is definitely not a cyclist only problem:
If you want to register/license bikes, then to cope with issuing registration plates, cycling licenses, ownership documents, etc for every single bike and cyclist in the UK then you'd need something at least the size of the DVLA (probably bigger, I seem to remember reading that bikes outsell cars two-to-one?). How would that be paid for? Cost is the main reason other countries have rejected bike registration.
Why should I expect to get treated differently because of the mode of transport
Because ultimately, cycling through a pedestrian precinct is considerably less of a crime than driving your HGV through a pedestrian precinct.
Cars and other motor vehicles kill or injure over 200,000 people a year in the UK. Bikes don't.
Why should the law not target those who do the most harm with the biggest penalties?
hammyuk - Member
Graham - no trolling at all! It's a genuine hate of mine - I have pretty much every category possible and spend a lot of money every year in fees, insurance, tax, etc YET the vast majority of both commuting and pleasure cyclists treat the road as their own private track. Sod red lights, give ways, solid white lines, paths and the rest.
This bears no relation to my experience of the roads.
TJ I do accept that junction is not perfect, I just go into the cycle lane and take it from there, then I'm just as I would be had I come from Lauriston Place.
Have you written to th. Council about it? I've not experienced your problems with drivers wanting to kill me from the RHS but it does seem poorly signed for them .
Bike gps generally log their data. In car gps/satnav never log the data - is this because an incar satnav would record criminal activity in pretty much any car it would be installed in and no owner would then ever buy one.
I wonder how useful it would be to police accident investigators if an in-car satnav logged the last say 500miles of data.
I can certainly imagine a future where insurers insist that all cars are fitted with a black box to record speed, G-force, control positions and ideally video from front and rear cameras.
I just don't get it. There's a campaign to make cycling safer and all people on here do is whinge and whine about other cyclists breaking the rules.
My ride to work would be safer if I was given more room to ride my bike, wasn't cut up on roundabouts, pulled out on at junctions and basically ignored by most cars as soon as the driver's door has gone past me.
Are you lot actually cyclists or gatecrashers from pistonheads?
I only saw one cyclist whilst (driving) on the roads this morning. He was pretty exemplary - stopped at the red lights and navigated a large fast roundabout well with clear hand signals and good shoulder checks.
So if we're allowing anecdotal evidence then my sample clearly shows that no cyclists break traffic laws
I did see plenty of motorists* flouting laws though: speeding, undertaking, ignoring lane markings, driving on the wrong side of the road, not stopping at the ASL line, not stopping at a stop sign, parking illegally. Tsk tsk.
Dezb - its the same any time anything like this crops up on here. Even on a cycling forum nothing must be allowed that might possibly impinge on the great god car
TJ: To be fair, the idea that cyclists should abide by the rules of the road and be held accountable for breaking those rules is perfectly reasonable (and does already happen).
However I think motorists complaints of law-breaking cyclists are extremely hypocritical and quite often just plain wrong: there are plenty of videos on YouTube of drivers lecturing cyclists about their "law breaking" when they've actually done nothing wrong (i.e. filtering, taking the lane, riding two abreast, using an ASL).
Personally I've been honked at for using a Toucan crossing and shouted at numerous times for riding on the shared-use pavement, despite signs and painted markings. Just last week I had a sweet little old lady tell me to "**** off" when I courteously stopped to let her pass safely. (she was going the other way BTW. I'm not that slow).
"Granting permission to cyclists to go through red lights in certain situations could cut fatalities and serious injuries, peers have been told. In a Lords debate ministers were urged to examine a similar scheme launched in Paris this week. "
-- "Consider letting cyclists run red lights, say peers", The Times (Feb 9th 2012)
Not sure I agree with that BCF guide, certainly re. Roundabouts.
Hmm.. the trouble with "thinking like a driver" on roundabouts round here is that I frequently see drivers in completely the wrong lane.
At one near my work correctly taking the inside lane for the last exit means you risk getting boxed in by cars who go all the way around in the outside lane.
On another one I daily see cars swing across multiple lanes and back again.
e.g. Taking the red line scenic approach rather than the correct green line:
We have had cyclists breaking the rules should have a license endorsed. We have had the ideas from the campaign poo pooed incase they might possibly make life harder for cars - you did that one and loads more anti bike rhetoric.
What we are advocating is everyone sticking to the rules, in an effort to reduce some insanity and stop motorists hating us so much.
I'm all for that, provided:
A) the rules are safe for cyclists to follow
B) more effort is put into educating drivers and cyclists on what the rules are
C) the rules are enforced
If cars were driven in line with the highway code |I wouldn't have to go thru some traffic lights on red to maintain my safety. I would get enough time and space to ride safely.
Just go to the links to the junction I put in above and look for the cars either parked or driving legally - hardly one. Its a rare day that I see any cars being driven in accidence with the highway code.
so don't tell me I have to compromise my safety to obey traffic law and road layouts that endanger me when so few car drivers ever obey the law.
2 second rule anyone? How about leaving room for vulnerable road users? How about obeying speed limits?
TJ just because some people are critical of cyclists and some are against measures that they feel will penalise drivers doesn't mean your histrionic "nothing must be allowed that might possibly impinge on the great god car".
Why does it have to be so black and white? Why should we not have balanced views rather than blindl supporting what we are told is "pro bike"?
At a multi lane roundabout I tend to take the outside lane, even turning right, I take the lane and signal right until the last exit before mine, then I signal left and move closer to the kerb. Using that BCF guide would mean I'm trying to move lane as I exit, may not be so clover if there are 30mph cars in that lane that want to go straight on (and they would be in the right lane)
I'm all for that, provided:
A) the rules are safe for cyclists to follow
B) more effort is put into educating drivers and cyclists on what the rules are
C) the rules are enforced
+1
Having rules is all well and good but I think everyone is aware of how little enforcement goes on so everyone is in a mad and mostly selfish bubble of road use.
Simple things like "merge in turn" signs where roads narrow, "give way to cyclists at traffic islands" would really help.
Most motorists (including me) will flagrantly break numerous traffic laws on a regular basis. But for some reason certain motorists get extremely pious when they see a cyclist breaking the law, even if it is done after careful consideration and for a good reason. It is rank hypocrisy.
Well thats a very dangerous way to ride a roundabout. ( asumming yo mean the left hand lane) It meand yo are riding across the exits as cars are exiting exposing your self to more danger. You are also saying you go into the kerb on the exit - again asking to get pinched.
You would be in the wrong lane.
AS for the pro bike measures - anytime anything pro bike ins mentioned on here a significant number of folk will shout out agaist it on grounds is unfair to car drivers - loads of example on this thread
AS for the pro bike measures - anytime anything pro bike ins mentioned on here a significant number of folk will shout out agaist it on grounds is unfair to car drivers - loads of example on this thread
Had to check I hadn't stumbled across the Daily Mail comments page for a moment.
TandemJeremy - Member
Well thats a very dangerous way to ride a roundabout. ( asumming yo mean the left hand lane) It meand yo are riding across the exits as cars are exiting exposing your self to more danger. You are also saying you go into the kerb on the exit - again asking to get pinched.
You would be in the wrong lane.
Is that your opinion or fact? I guess the danger of being in the outside lane is balanced against forcing yourself to cross into it as you exit...isn't one meant to exit from the LH lane? If so then I think my way is safer. And I said "closer to the kerb" not "into" it - how much I move would depend on the layout.
Anyway you appear to be advising against the Highway Code, correct?
I guess my point is that I don't see that there are absolute hard and fast rules like this - it can depend on the circumstances, including the cyclist, how fast thy can pedal, how comfortable they are being overtaken. I am comfortable not always going as far as BC or whoever- and when even they disagree with the Highway Code, can't you see it's not black and white?
AS for the pro bike measures - anytime anything pro bike ins mentioned on here a significant number of folk will shout out agaist it on grounds is unfair to car drivers - loads of example on this thread
So you are saying they're not entitled to their opinions? You are right and they are wrong? What?
You need to read that guide again to understand the safe way of riding roundabouts.
I find the constant anti bike pro car comments on a supposed cyclist site like this hard to fathom. Any measures that would imporve the lot of bikes but might possible slow cars a tiny amount are decried by a significant number of posters on here
