Various Labour and Tory manifestos have promised us a referendum, Gordon Brown reneged on it, now Cameron is reneging too, if the people want a vote (and polls suggest we do) then shouldn't the politicians trust us? Whether you are for or against the EU shouldn't the opinion of the people count for something?
What do you reckon, should we have a referendum?
Chat Forum
The EU debate in Parliament tommorow...
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Posted 7 months ago #
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if the media could actually be relied upon to give a true picture then a referendum might be a good way of getting an answer.
But, the media has been anti europe for so long that there is no true picture, all we hear are negatives and often the negatives are invented. Very little is said about what the benefits of Europe are, what the implications of leaving are, etc.
Simple facts like most trade is with Europe, so whatever we do Europe will be telling us what to do.
Posted 7 months ago # -
A friend on mine, a Labour Councillor in Hove told me that Brown & Co denied us a referendum on the EU Constitution because the 'No' vote would win and they couldn't allow that. That smacks of dictatorship to me, as does Camerons stance on it now. What price Democracy when manifesto pledges are torn up and tossed out like so much confetti?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Well actually the referendum Brown proposed was on the EU constitution that never happened - so no vote needed.
A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless - do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?
Posted 7 months ago # -
TJ-your answer mirrors my Labour Councillor friends view but is missing the point. Whether I want in or out of the EU is irrelevant, what I am saying is if the people WANT a say, as they do, who are politicians to deny it? As you will no doubt know the EU Constitution and the Treaty were for all intents and purposes the same document, they even contained the same spelling mistakes!
Posted 7 months ago # -
Got a link to the tory manifesto EU referendum pledge ?
I found this :-
"We have introduced a Bill in order to amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that treaty - a 'referendum lock'."
But that's not a pledge for a a referendum on our current EU membership is it.
Posted 7 months ago # -
That smacks of dictatorship to me
But its like having kids, now and again you have to stop them before they do something stupid.
Posted 7 months ago # -
the trouble is most people are total morons and arent capable of understanding the issues properly and will only be swayed by whatever the tabloids are saying. So probably best is there isnt a referendum
Posted 7 months ago # -
allthepies-it was in the previous manifesto, before Brown signed the Constitution. And at the time that Brown reneged on his parties promise Cameron screamed and wailed about the benefits of having a referendum, now he orders his MP's to deny the people what they want.
b r-politicians are our servants not our parents. Surely if the people want a say then they should have one. If Cameron feels he has the right to patronise the public then he'll pay at the polls next time out, just like Brown did.
What worries me the most is that none of the Lib/Lab/Con parties are representing mainstream opinion on Europe-opening the door to the extreme right.
Posted 7 months ago # -
+1 for Darrell and b r. Wouldn't want a decision this important left to a public vote. If important decisions all went to public vote we'd still be hanging folk.
Posted 7 months ago # -
darrell- does that give the PM the right to dictate to the public then?
Posted 7 months ago # -
So it wasn't in the Tory manifesto of this government then ?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yes, it was. In 2007 Cameron promised a "cast-iron" commitment to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. At the time William Hague described Browns signing of the treaty-against 88% of the publics will- as a "bad day for democracy. What's changed?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Sad to say but I agree with the argument that a referendum for things like this is basically a bad idea- if anyone believes that such things get settled by informed decision making in a fair climate, just look at the electoral reform debate. An absolute farce, in the end.
theloner - Member
A friend on mine, a Labour Councillor in Hove told me that Brown & Co denied us a referendum on the EU Constitution because the 'No' vote would win and they couldn't allow that
And not because it became irrelevant after other nations rejected it? No you're right, we should have had a referendum on a constitution that wasn't going to come to pass regardless, that'd be a good use of time and money. Brown denied us our democratic right to achieve nothing.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Here's a clue - there's a reason why successive prime ministers don't want to risk a referendum on pulling Britain out of the EU, and it has to do with not wanting to be the person in charge when they turn out the lights on our economy.
Only an utter, utter 'ricky', which an understanding of economics about a hundred years out of date would consider it prudent to remove Britain from the EU trading block. What exactly would we do next - ask the US if we could become the 51st state?
Posted 7 months ago # -
What do you reckon, should we have a referendum?
When I see people asking if they are going to pay duty on European purchases, I fear that they are not informed enough to make decisions on more important issues.
The news here does seem to maintain a certain distance from Europe and generally I don't think people are informed.
So the answer is no, no referendum.Posted 7 months ago # -
Blimey, some of you blokes really do come across as a bunch of Patricians! Sod the Plebs and what they think, we know best! I just can't see that kind of attitude as democratic!
Posted 7 months ago # -
It really reminds me of the '80's, when nobodby understood or cared, only now I'm in my 30's and not understanding and not caring is such very hard work.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yes, he said all that and then changed his mind in 2009 IIRC but it wasn't a 2010 manifesto pledge was it.
Anyway, if you want out of Europe then vote UKIP, that's about your only option.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Blimey, some of you blokes really do come across as a bunch of Patricians! Sod the Plebs and what they think, we know best! I just can't see that kind of attitude as democratic!
For democracy to function properly we would need a fair and balanced media though.
People who form their political opinions based on the Daily Mail and The Sun shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Posted 7 months ago # -
theloner - Member
allthepies-it was in the previous manifesto, before Brown signed the Constitution. And at the time that Brown reneged on his parties promise Cameron screamed and wailed about the benefits of having a referendum, now he orders his MP's to deny the people what they want.
Brown never signed up to the EU constitution as it was rejected by other countries. So there was no constitution to have a referendum on. So no pledge was broken
Posted 7 months ago # -
Whether it was in the 2010 or 2007 manifesto mate, the issue remains the same. The majority of people want a vote. They should, surely, have it? If not what next? Capital punishment?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Whether or not Brown signed a 'Treaty' or a 'Constitution' Jerry, the premise was the same. Don't try and pretend that it wasn't the same document, every sensible person knows it was whatever their political leaning.
Posted 7 months ago # -
theloner - nope - every sensible person knows that they are not the same -
Posted 7 months ago # -
A referendum on
the EUindependence is stupid and pointless - do you really think withdrawal from the union would be inthe UKsScotland's best interests?Posted 7 months ago # -
Really Jerry? Care to point out the differences between the Treaty and Constitution?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yes we should have a vote has they are only representing the people
Whom for some reason put them in? But thats another thread.Personally its not ever going to work and nearly every country who's
in has collapsed.
Ive just bought a place in Alicante and courtesy of Great Britain being part of the EU.
I am driving on new motorways and dual carriageways paid by YOU?
And yet come here and our roads are a pot /patched up mess!Just what are we getting out of it to whats being paid out anyone know ?
We need to get out and reinvest in this country and educate
and train for so called skills shortage and not rely on other
countries investing and pulling the plug on work here and
giving the work to there own people.Posted 7 months ago # -
What is the point of a referendum? what exactly would it achieve?
Remember the UK is no longer the centre of a vast empire, it is a small country that relies on trade for its existence.
Do you think that if the UK pulls out of the EU that Frankfurt won't ensure that London is screwed as a financial centre?
If we leave the EU do you really think we will be free to make our own laws? do you really think the French farmers won't call for a ban on British Beef imports on the basis of TB or whatever takes there fancy?
Those saying that if we leave the EU then the foreigners will all have to go home, do you really think that is going to happen, look at the use of Filipino nurses or Indian IT contractors, there presence is despite the EU not because of it.
Take fruit picking so you suddenly see all the Romanians being replaced? even though they have been coming since before Romanian accession?
As for comments about Norway and its oil wealth, bit irrelevant now as the North Sea oil wealth has been spent, or Switzerland, they have to play along with the EU rules because they have no choice.
Posted 7 months ago # -
As an aside i guess you know that the EU part funded the trails at Afan?
Posted 7 months ago # -
mrmo-my point is that there has bever had to be an educated discussion on the merits of EU membership because our 'leaders' in parliament have this arrogant, snobby attitude that they know best and we don't count.
The point of having a vote is that the majority WANT a vote, to deny it would be dictaorship in my eyes. I've had enough of 'don't do as I do, do as I say' politics.Posted 7 months ago # -
Do you think that if the UK pulls out of the EU that Frankfurt won't ensure that London is screwed as a financial centre?
That won't happen being this country nearly solely relies on this for monies.
If it ever to was there would be a war or near war to happen.Posted 7 months ago # -
As an aside i guess you know that the EU part funded the trails at Afan?
LOL wow just how much was that compared to a total new motorway system and
dual carriageways in and around Alicante and this goes to Murcia and surrounding districts.
Just google Alicante to see how big a region it is. Its not just the sea side town!!Plus have you not seen Alicante's New Airport courtesy of EU funding?
Posted 7 months ago # -
theloner, the point is there can't be an educated informed discussion with the British Media as it is.
On that basis what is the point, the outcome is known, but the implications aren't
That won't happen being this country nearly solely relies on this for monies.
If it ever to was there would be a war or near war to happen.Do you really think there would be a war? Consider for a moment the outcome, consider who would enlist? the only war that might happen is a trade war which would see the UK well and truly screwed, we have to import fuel, food, labour, etc etc etc.
and look up objective one.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Personally its not ever going to work and nearly every country who's in has collapsed.
Ive just bought a place in Alicante and courtesy of Great Britain being part of the EU. I am driving on new motorways and dual carriageways paid by YOU?
And yet come here and our roads are a pot /patched up mess!Just what are we getting out of it to whats being paid out anyone know ?
We need to get out and reinvest in this country and educate
and train for so called skills shortage and not rely on other
countries investing and pulling the plug on work here and
giving the work to there own people.As someone said further up the thread, daily mail readers.
If a referendum were to happen with the three so called options:
1: To stay in
2: To stay in but renegotiate our terms, such as free trade agreements.
3: To leave.The EU would not allow option 2. And before anyone mentions Switzerland, they weren't in the EU in the first place. To have a country in the EU, try to do this option would send a signal to other countries that they can do the same. The EU would then be pointless. Some of you would like that, but it ain't going to happen.
So we are left with option 1 and 3, and since the unbiased OP seems to be clamouring for option 3, It means we are completely out with all the economic consequences that come with it.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Sorry mrmo, but are saying is that the British people are too stupid to be trusted with decisions about our own future?
Posted 7 months ago #
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