Having read the trail centre articles in the latest mag, I must admit to finding it a tad depressing that what comes out of it, is that people are always asking for the same things when new trails are being built and those things are all that I hate about trail centres.
All your bike-park features – table tops, jumps, big berms everywhere on wide fast tracks that are a massive ugly scar on the countryside.
No likee.

Now I’m not a trail centre hater by any means, (I love them in fact,) but this move away from techy xc trails towards groomed stunt tracks is getting a bit much, imho. I like the fact you can turn up at a trail centre in the worst weather and have a decent ride without worrying about getting lost, waist deep in a bog in the hills, but I don’t want them all turning into overgrown bmx tracks. 🙁

Problem is that it’s that sort of stuff you don’t really get naturally, and it’s fun to ride. For techy stuff you’re never going to really get anything as good as natural trails in a trail centre IMO, as most trail centres are designed so people aren’t going to die trying to ride them.

However, I still think trail centres need a bit of tech, if they were proper groomed (like the olympic xc track) that would just be mind numbingly boring.

Just think how amazing they’ll be once MTBing ceases to be the New Golf and they get overgrown and fall into disrepair before being cleared by a small group of locals.

I tend to agree with you. I get annoyed by people having a pop at Sherwood Pines or Cannock for not being rocky droppy gnarr fests.

A trail centre can – and imo should – simply make the best of the available terrain. A Midlands trail centre doesn’t have the geography to be a “big” Welsh-type trail trail centre, but it should have enough decently maintained trails to suit as wide a range of skills as the local terrain will allow. That’s all I ask, and it’s all people should really expect.

Just think how amazing they’ll be once MTBing ceases to be the New Golf

Road riding is already the new new golf. Keep up!

Problem is that it’s that sort of stuff you don’t really get naturally, and it’s fun to ride.

That’s part of the issue as I see it. The fact that those features don’t occur naturally are why I don’t like them much in MTB trails.
I don’t mind the odd jump and berms done well, but they should be sympathetic to the surroundings not stand out like a sore thumb.
(The new bit on the MBR and the Minotaur trails at CYB being a classic example of eyesore trailbuilding.)

franki – Member

The fact that those features don’t occur naturally are why I don’t like them much in MTB trails.

But it’s also why it makes sense to build them. I mean, we could go and build some old-style wiggly XC at glentress, but then, there’s tons of that already in the wild but you can’t just go out into the hills and find a load of berms and jumps, right?

Also… TBH there’s also the fact that some features are just plain easier to build and maintain than others. If we build wiggly, slightly challenging singletrack, people destroy it in no time- cut every corner til it’s a motorway. (see- Zoom or Bust)

The new stuff at CYB will be less ugly once they’ve bedded in and there’s some encroachment… But they’re both on felled hillsides aren’t they?

Just think how amazing they’ll be once MTBing ceases to be the New Golf and they get overgrown and fall into disrepair before being cleared by a small group of locals.

We rode some of the now dissused stuff at CyB the other week.
You’d never even know it had one been a purpose built trail. 😀

I guess for me, the draw of trail centres was more the waymarking than the fact that the trails were purpose built. A decent xc ride where you could belt round withoud having to stop to check directions.

If you want natural features then natural trails are the answer to your problem, and there are lots of natural trails.

However, if people want table tops and berms then there are only built trails, mostly at trail centres, to answer their problem. So it makes sense to build stuff that is not on the majority of trails that already exist. Trails like the Orange run at Laggan are totally unnatural but an awful lot of fun. If you don’t like it there’s normal trails on the other side of the valley.

And why not build tech stuff? You have a total blank canvas to make something rideable but also very difficult. And riding difficult stuff is great fun.

this move away from techy xc trails towards groomed stunt tracks is getting a bit much, imho

Why on earth would you say that?

People build something to allow them to do something. Doesn’t really affect you does it? Why should we all enjoy the same style of MTBing as you? The natural trails are all still there. More of them than ever in fact, ime.

I love trail centres, but I love natural trails too (the good ones). I’ve rambled wild in the mountains and got lost with my bike on my shoulder, I’ve also done the Cwmcarn DH trail with all the yoofs.

I like Scifi movies, but I don’t complain when other people make and watch romcoms. In fact if it’s a good romcom I’ll watch it too.

I don’t understand people complaing about what other people want to do when it doesn’t affect them.

CYB circa 2001 (just after MBR opening and ‘toughening up’ of the Karrimor) was IMO the epitome. Not liking what’s there now.

If you want natural features then natural trails are the answer to your problem, and there are lots of natural trails.

However, if people want table tops and berms then there are only built trails,

I see the sense in that, but as I said the waymarking was the important bit. I ride “natural” trails all the time anyway, just sometimes it’s nice to go to an area you’ve never visited before and have a spin without worrying about navigation and ground conditions.
I’m happy with trail features being included, but in keeping, rather than being obvious stand out features.

Still not sure what your point is.

this move away from techy xc trails towards groomed stunt tracks is getting a bit much, imho

Why on earth would you say that?

People build something to allow them to do something. Doesn’t really affect you does it?

Well… it sounds from the article like it might. Any new developments appear to be going to be biased towards bike park style trails. So that would mean no new “old school” xc waymarked stuff.
Of course I’m not saying that trail centres shouldn’t have jumpy trails built (just because I don’t like them, I wouldn’t want to spoil other riders’ fun!) but lets not make that the only type of new trail to be built.

I’d have a go with a GPS. I move around all the time with work and take a GPS with me with a route plotted ready to go. For example, today I am driving down to Cornwall and have 2 road rides in it. Previously I’ve been over to Matlock, ridden a 15 mile mountain bike ride after work in a couple of hours and gone home. There are no trail centres near me but it’s easy enough to ride elsewhere quickly without having sign posts.

I can’t stand this smooth as a babys bum gravel stuff. The sooner this is stopped the better. Trails should not be as smooth as tarmac.
Franki; just stick to the blue or green trails?

Just think how amazing they’ll be once MTBing ceases to be the New Golf and they get overgrown and fall into disrepair before being cleared by a small group of locals.

Yeah, just look at all the overgrown, disused golf courses littering the countryside!

So that would mean no new “old school” xc waymarked stuff.

Hang on.. when the old skool was the skool, there was no waymarking!

Should be space enough for all types, but it’s disappointing when old stuff that folk like (e.g the MBR stream drop/climb at CyB) gets replaced with identikit fast bermy stuff. Add the new stuff, but don’t replace the old !

Hang on.. when the old skool was the skool, there was no waymarking!

LOL! You know what I mean. Like the original CYB trails.

I rode Pearce Cycles red trail at Hopton yesterday. That’ s an example of how a good man-made xc route should be, imho. Not too much surfacing, jumps and berms used sensibly and making use of rocks and roots that were already there. Fast and techy descents, hard climbs – perfect! 😀

I haven’t read the article yet but this is something that I’ve been thinking about lately, and it appears that there is an evolutionary shift taking place. Whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing, I don’t know, but ‘XC’ might be a dated term for what many people experience as mountain biking.

I just hope trail centre park riding doesn’t become the be all and end all of mountain biking in the UK. There’s nothing wrong with trail centres, and I like a good blast now and again, but there’s so much else out there, and it would be sad to see other aspects of mountain biking left behind.

All your bike-park features – table tops, jumps, big berms everywhere on wide fast tracks

That’s what I like about trail centres! If I(you) want techy natural singletrack then just go to The Peak / (insert any other good natural trails here).

If you build any jumps on natural trails – well you know!

Not too much surfacing, jumps and berms used sensibly and making use of rocks and roots that were already there

Like Cwmcarn then?

Actually, what you are describing is natural trails.

Plenty of wiggly singletrack in the trail centres I visit.

If you want jumps and berms you can go to GT ot Innerleithen. If you want wiggly singletrack you can go to Drumlanrig or Mabie.

Did a big loop in the Peaks the other week, did shed loads of climbing, lots of tech, lots of good descending, but an awful lot of the descending was on road or down wide double-tracks and that was something of a waste I thought, beautiful as it was…

The beauty of most trail centres are that you can go there any time and know that you are going to be able to hit some jumps and rail some berms and have a lot of fun. In fact, my main gripe is that there just are not enough jumps, drops and kickers on your average trail centre route. We need more sick airtime!

Other times I love being out in natural trails and I also know where I can go for that. Most centres are now becoming a good mix of bmx track-style stuff and harder, more techy stuff. This is good. 🙂

Butcher wrote:

I haven’t read the article yet but this is something that I’ve been thinking about lately, and it appears that there is an evolutionary shift taking place. Whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing, I don’t know, but ‘XC’ might be a dated term for what many people experience as mountain biking.

I think that’s probably the crux of the matter. There is a new breed of casual / regular mountainbiker out there. However ‘XC’ is the bulk of riding done by my riding buddies and me, so there must be more of us out there!
I guess things are very different now, from what attracted me to MTBing in the late 80s! People new to the sport will have a perspective based on all the developments and specialisations that have appeared since the early days.
Perhaps I’m getting old. ( I am. 😉 )

The nearest man-made trails to me is 40 minutes drive (Nova and Y’Tis). These all-weather trails total just a few kilometers long. “On my doorstep” is the Mendip trail/stealth network amounting to perhaps ~100km.

Absolutely nothing to be depressed about.

I tend to use trail centres when the local conditions are crap because they tend to drain, i don’t ride them because they are some mtb version of a skate park.

But i can’t be arsed going to somewhere with loads of jumps and drops, if i want to ride jumps then i would buy a bmx, jumps aren’t why i ride, never have been never will be. So whilst i enjoy skyline or the old penhydd, i have no time for w2.

It is a long time since i last spent any time at CyB, and it used to be ok, not sure about what has happened in the last few years though.

I enjoy Cwmcarn because whilst manmade it uses what is there, and yes there are a few berms and jumps but i wouldn’t say they add anything to the last decent. I would say it does spoil it for me, i would much rather they lost the berms and tried to create some more singletrack.

The FoD track is basically a big BMX track and whilst the odd lap is ok, it feels very artificial and isn’t a place i can be bothered riding regularly.

All your bike-park features – table tops, jumps, big berms everywhere on wide fast tracks that are a massive ugly scar on the countryside.

Firstly the jumps at a lot of trail centers are often awful, lips to steep and high for the length of the jumps so you have to squash the hell out of them; or two mounds meant to be a double going uphill. If they are going to put jumps there the people who build the jumps should be able to jump so that they know how to make it flow.

Secondly a lot of the berms are in the wrong place at trail centers making them completely useless anyway.

In essence they should build all the features you don’t like but only if they are going to build them in a way that works.

I think it depends on what’s popular, a lot of trail centres (CYB, Glentress, Dalby etc) are businesses at the end of the day to varying extents, right? They have to go with what’s popular/’cool’ (cringe).

I’m relatively new to mtb (started about 4 years ago) but in my opinion kids ‘these days’ get into it because they see downhillers doing huge airs, freestyle guys doing massive whips, and all of the various ways these styles influence ‘trail riding’. Due to this the trail centres have to cater to what’s going to get the most attention, and at the moment I think that’s A-line style bike park stuff.

I’m with the bit of everything crowd, I love going to Lee Quarry and sessioning the short red/black runs, but there are times when you sigh and wish you were in a forest, lost somewhere, or about to charge back to Langsett from the Cairn at Cut Gate. It’s all about variety.

It’s all about variety.

And that’s what worried me in the magazine. In two places it was stated that everyone wanted bike park style features when a new build was destined to take place.
It probably wasn’t a good sign that Llandegla was featured. I’ve ridden there twice, I had a lot of fun, but I can’t see me being bothered to go back any time soon, it’s just too synthetic. It’s good that places exist like Llandegla, but I don’t want that to become the blueprint for all new builds.

I guess for me, the draw of trail centres was more the waymarking than the fact that the trails were purpose built. A decent xc ride where you could belt round withoud having to stop to check directions.

Get a GPS?

The appeal of trailcentres for me is exactly the sort of stuff described, fast bermed jumpy swoopy stuff that’s usable all year round and that doesn’t have the worry of a walker, horse or dog just around the next corner.

I tend to take the view that trail centres are great and have definitely added to the popularity of mountain biking. However, in my top ten rides, no trail centres feature and aren’t likely to either. The days that stick out for me are the ones that involve big mountains, tech riding and stunning scenery, something that very few of the forest based trail centres are able to provide.

Not really a trail centre, but at QE Park where there are tech bits, people just bloody ride round them and make new lines anyway!
Maybe its all this Strava crap.

big mountains, tech riding and stunning scenery, something that very few of the forest based trail centres are able to provide

I dunno about that.

But my top ten best rides would include a big variety. Trail centres, Surrey Hills, Mid Wales, the Lakes probably too.

I cant qualify this statement but im guessing that to cut a new trail but keep it looking like part of the original mountain side with roots and ruts and all number of techy bits would cost a lot more than grading out a trail and creating features like jumps and berms. These features are all the work of a machine and could be done relatively quickly. So cost would be a big driver here?

Trail centres are always going to be a victim of their own popularity – the need for the trails to cope with volume means surfacing, and making them wide/accessible for easy maintainance. Doesn’t really lend itself to the kind of natural features that so many of us want to see.

Coed-Y-Brenin has managed to retain some good, natural stuff – I’m thinking the Tarw trail in particular – fast, loads of corners and fun, but still full of delicious rocky goodness. Not many like it, sadly.

Another thing to consider is that I can pretty much guarantee there is riding like the OP is after available at most trail centres, it just might not be waymarked!

I go to trail centres for the bmx park style riding. But agree there is more to riding than that.

There are a few that don’t just go for jumps and berms. Drumlanrig springs to mind. I can’t see people building slow steep technical dowhills that require a bit of luck to get down clean. What makes natural riding fun is the unpredictability and changing nature of the trails. You come across stuff and don’t know if it is rideable until you have a go – trailcentres can’t do that.

My biggest gripe about trail centres is that they are so short. It would be nice to see some extended routes (using natural trails if needed and cheaper) to make a decent days riding. Seems a shame to drive for a couple of hours for only a few hours of trails.