[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

In all fairness, dismantling or repealing legislation by previous governments can be just as momentous a decision as making it in the first place. And it was, wasn't it?

thats true molgrips, but the point is that shes not deserving of a state funeral

rkk01 - Member

Who is musical director for the wake?

Oh let it be danny boyle.

thought it was a military funeral

It's a state funeral in all but name.

Yep it is not a full state funeral. Not sure the distinction is that important to be quite honest, it's all about perception.

so its not a state funeral then , that's all I want to know .

rkk01 - Member

Who is musical director for the wake?

Oh let it be danny boyle.

[url= http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2013/04/10/danny-boyle-to-create-thatcher-closing-event/ ]Your wish is my command...[/url]

if its paid for by the state, parliament was recalled to discuss her death, the head of state will be there and its being held at st pauls - which has been used for numerous state funerals

Im struggling to see how it can be anything else

There appears to be some distinction about lying in state.

Boyle is confident he can rise to the occasion and distil the essence of the Thatcher effect, especially when it comes to financial de-regulation. ‘It’ll start, like her reign did, with a really big bang, and end with a whimper. The bang will come from an Irish pyrotechnic outfit who contacted us saying they’re keen to do the work.

😀

so its not a state funeral then , that's all I want to know .

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Ah, but apparently this duck like creature is actually a moorhen.

The only difference between this debacle and full on state funeral is the lying in state bit. Given the depth of feeling on both sides I would suggest that lying in state and risking the general public getting close would be far too risky, hence the "state-funeral-lite" that we'll see on Wednesday.

As I said before, if I'm paying for it I would like the day off to [s]enjoy[/s] watch it.

I object to paying for this.

Can someone else who liked her cough up my bit please?

Anybody else watching QT? A lot of respect for David Blunkett so far. My opinion of Polly hasn't changed.

yup blunkett is the one i think making the most sense, reminding me of Russel brands article

I take back what I said about the QT panel. A solid debate with interesting points tonight.

OMG Charles Moore is such an arse. I'm struggling to work out whether he's more of an idiot than Polly.

Sorry Aracer, that was a cross post!

Anybody else watching QT? A lot of respect for David Blunkett so far.

I couldn't stomach David Blunkett so turned it over. You buying the New Labour line then ?

I have to admit I'm not surprised, ernie. I hadn't realised Blunkett was the distasteful side of New Labour though - is it because he's not condemning her enough?

I appear to be shouting at the TV, must be QT.
Reinforces my already low opinion of politicians and Toynbee.
But Charles Moore is exceptionally deluded.

Got a bit silly at the end, but plenty of good stuff for the most part from everyone involved. I never realised that Menzies Cambell had such a crush!!! 😉

I would normally turn off my the time This Week came on, but interesting first point about Mrs T approach to the first miners strike from Portillo.

...this could almost be more interesting, Portillo and Campbell. Switch back ernie, I'm sure you must be a fan of Alastair.

(oops, nearly forgot I need to do this for ernie 😉 )

is it because he's not condemning her enough?

Only got up to the bit where he let that Tory herbert claim that Thatcher had helped to release Nelson Mandela and bring down Apartheid, I thought I can't listen to this bollox and turned over.

It was that and Blunkett's waffling trying to justify embracing Thatcherism.

Maybe I'm a little less tolerant today because I've been to a local Trade Union Council meeting were the effects of the cuts on disabled people was discussed. I also learnt that when New Labour first came to power the thousand richest people in Britain were worth £98bn, after 10 years of New Labour they were worth £300bn, a 204% increase. New Labour are not my favourite flavour.

Portillo has just pointed out that Scargill shut down mining...

Portillo - My only criticism of Thatcher is she was too cautious...

Just talked me into contributing [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ding-Dong-The-Witch-Dead/dp/B0023NDFFO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365721333&sr=8-1&keywords=Ding+Dong+The+Witch+Is+Dead ]69p[/url]

has Clegg said anything on the matter?

So Ernie, I guess you will be avoiding Blair's latest piece in the FTand New Statesman! 😉

I take you point on Blunkett but had a different criticism.. Given what changes he's has been directly involved in in his career and the constituency he represents, I though he would be more interesting than he was. When he started about his experiences in the 1970s and early 80s it was on the verge of being really informative. But then he kind of lost where he was sadly.

Once a lot of the more extravagant claims from either side have been dealt with, it has become more interesting to revisit the economic history of the 70s-90s this week. I thought the debate on "divisiveness" was an interesting case in point tonight.

apartheid bit was bad but i thought it was even better when that torry guy tried to claim that she was responsible for throwing off the shackles of communism in europe and russia

Rabid lefties are so in cabals of rational,though, they blame all woes on Maggie.

Gordon Brown favourite lines : "I am a prudent chancellor" later followed by "it's the end of boom and bust"

He sold off the country's gold reserves when the market price was at it's lowest!

He deregulated the finance industry and sat back as the housing market and city boomed. He allowed this because he wanted the tax money to fund his wasteful schemes, to fuel his ego.

He splurged on PFI's and bloated the public sector when the economy should have been naturally slowing down after 2000, but he kept it going by creating tens of thousands of non-jobs. End of boom and bust???

Then when there was a run on Northern Rock, he panicked and used public money to shore up this overspent bank.

We had Labour in power for well over 10 years, but STILL those with no clue (and are probably too young to remember) blame Margaret Thatcher for everything that ever went wrong in the UK. Rational eh! Par for the course! Lefties are so frustrated and angry in their jealous hatred that they can't even think straight. And to think such barmy people can cast their votes!

RIP Maggie, you weren't perfect, but you had balls. You stamped on aggressive militant unions and so rightly so! I remember the power going off in the 70's, the rubbish not being collected, bodies not being buried, car plants at a standstill. The tail was wagging the dog!

In the late 80's when I was just starting work, the factory I worked in was shut down for half an hour because someon dropped a small piece of ham on a thoroughfare. The unions shut production down to have the piece of ham removed! Bastards! Anyway, the factory closed years ago and houses occupy the site. We became uncompetitive and companies shifted production where unions didn't exist.

I yearn for the sort of politicians we had back when Maggie was in power. We don't have any personalities in mainstream politics now. They three main parties are roughly the same these days - fronted by a bunch of privileged toffs who went to posh schools, but have no comprehension of what its like to be a normal British citizen.

We need another PM with the same courage of conviction and charisma as that of Margaret Thatcher.

.

We need another PM with the same courage of conviction and charisma as that of Margaret Thatcher.

Erm, have you been listening?

In the late 80's when I was just starting work...... the factory closed years ...We became uncompetitive and companies shifted production where unions didn't exist.

It is weird how the left cant see through Blair and Brown.

remember a Parliament question time when Milliband was slapped down and reminded that 'you are the ones who got us in this mess'.

Posted this on the now locked thread...

Bears repeating, really

My mind boggles that those who think very highly of Thatcher find it so very hard to accept that a huge number of the population have very different views...
In the main, I have been very impressed with the measured and balanced tone of the commentary from former adversaries. It would be perhaps a little more dignified, and a lot less provocative if the sycophants were less vocal and a little more measured and balanced in their praise.
With the exception of close family I have largely been quiet on the subject of Thatcher's death. The angry young man of 25 yrs ago would have expected rejoicing, but time, age and position has mellowed me... Let the past lie
BUT, I have found myself becoming increasingly irritated by the tone of many of the supportive commentators - especially Tory MPs on the TV and radio. They should take a leaf out of some of the more balanced commentators book. She was loved by many and utterly, utterly despised by many.
As well to accept that and move on.
Trying to ram down everyone's throat how great she was is going to increase the voice of those who have quietly forgotten

This thread was indeed missing a bit of SpongeFAIL.

hora - Member
It is weird how the left cant see through Blair and Brown.

WHATABOUT! WHATABOUT! WHATABOUT!

Boring.

hora - Member

It is weird how the left cant see through Blair and Brown.

😆

Spongebob - Member

They three main parties are roughly the same these days

One wouldn't have thought so, from reading your rambling rant. You give the clear impression that the Tories have saved us from a totally incompetent Labour government.

Still, I'm glad that you have come to the conclusion that the Tories are no better.

Or is this, along with konabunny's observation, simply more evidence of Spongebob's confused, contradictory, and incoherent, rantings ?

i thought sbob was spongebob too they both seem to share the same tabloid derrived misunderstanding of history

has Clegg said anything on the matter?

No. For all values of "the matter".

some confused people on here !!-- sbob/spongebob-- poor wumming-- hora-- ditto---

"In the late 80's when I was just starting work" - come on, you're really 5 years old, surely?

Again, I'm not a Tory. I was too young to vote for her until later on and I didn't. I also remember the Poll tax which I didn't agree with at all.

It doesn't stop you admiring the person though and for the task that was placed in her lap.

**** a woman in a dominated-mans world. The 70's and 80's - come on, what was the womans place in the work place? The sexism etc?

She also had very real physical danger to herself.

A peaceful settlement with Argentina? What that'd involve 'joint custody wouldn't it'. So someone invades and you then have to agree to share or worse?

Madness.

hora - Member

It is weird how the left cant see through Blair and Brown.

I don't think there's anyone in the country who hasn't seen through them by now. But I must have glossed over the posts defending the glorious record of Nu Labour. But you've obviously read them all, so do carry on.....

[img] [/img]

As far as the state funeral/not a state funeral business. The important issue here is that its certainly costing the same as one. And we're the ones paying. Which I strongly object too in the midst of this much trumpeted austerity. I expect we'll see in St Paul's (not a State Funeral, remember!) a collection of [s]the great and the good [/s] aggressive tax avoiders, looking suitably solemn for the passing of their spiritual leader 🙄

I couldn't agree more, Binners. Both parts.

One thing New labour did that I am impressed with is the smoking ban in pubs/buildings. Brave.

Good for you. Important policy that. Thanks for your contribution.

[img] [/img]

Tax avoiders?

I know you might not read current affairs preferring to stand outside protesting alot binners but you do realise a few MP's were jailed/implicated recently in fiddling/claiming fraudulently.

Labour was mentioned.

Just what are you rambling on about?! It's utterly incoherent. Are you drunk?

what is apparent, is that those who 'lived/suffered' through the thatcher regime have very strong memories of such, and those whom its an abstract subject, seem happy to dismiss/tarnish those experiences-- or maybe its ideological-- or just lack of class consciousness--or both....

Another random selection of words cobbled together to form something that's [i]like[/i] a sentence, but different

What's your point caller? Is it about hospitals?

[img] http://urbanspectator.typepad.com/.a/6a00e5514b80948834017c36aa6811970b-450wi [/img]

Rudeboy, don't forget either that some of us here are old enough to have 'lived/suffered' through the regimes (Tory and Labour) that preceded Thatcher. The misery of that period also seems an abstract notion to some. It would be equally foolish to dismiss/tarnish those experiences though.

tmhnm-- ahem, i can only remember back to 1962/3-- but certainly was conscious from 1970 onwards regarding politics etc--so for me i have personal experiences to enhance/detract from the era..... i think my point was it was a very polarised era-and not wishy washy new labour that came after......

I appreciate your point rudebwoy (and you remember back further than me!), just wanted to widen it a bit! That whole period (of my youth) was very divisive, not helped by economic policies that were characterised by "stop-go." The state of industrial relations (caused by both sides) hardly point to a less-divisive period than the one that followed. One of the points bought out in last night's QT.

kimbers - Member

i thought sbob was spongebob too they both seem to share the same tabloid derrived misunderstanding of history

So are you in Rudebwoy's camp?
Are you another that thinks we should have paid miners to do nothing, as the unions demanded?
It's quite a famous Scargill speech you know, perhaps it's you that is having trouble remembering history?

Of course, you may agree with Scargill, in which case I'd be happy for you to send me money in return for nothing. 💡

🙂

On the QT point. I think Charles Moore must definitely have been living in a different country to me during the 80's, as I didn't recognise a single element of the drivel he was spouting, at all

In the same way that Polly Toynbee was certainly living in some sort of alternative dimension to me during the Nu Labour years. As the Socialist Utopia she describes sounded absolutely brilliant!!! Wish I'd have been there instead

[quote=binners said]
In the same way that Polly Toynbee was certainly living in some sort of alternative dimension to me during the Nu Labour years. As the Socialist Utopia she describes sounded absolutely brilliant!!! Wish I'd have been there instead

It probably looked all roses when viewed from Tuscany.

hora - Member

Tax avoiders?

I know you might not read current affairs preferring to stand outside protesting alot binners but you do realise a few MP's were jailed/implicated recently in fiddling/claiming fraudulently.

Labour was mentioned.

The Labour Party are "guilty" of tax avoidance. When questioned I seem to remember they said it was "standard practise".

Are you another that thinks we should have paid miners to do nothing, as the unions demanded?

To quote rik.....

[b]I've told you a million times, do not exaggerate![/b]

[img] [/img]

😀

I am a lefty and therefore no supporter of New Labour. With Blair in particular leading us into the Iraq war on a lie I believe the man should be in jail. although she showed some courage in the Brighton bombing Thatcher was only one among many people, emergency services, hotel staff etc. Her governments record throughout its term was consistent, imo they were nothing more than asset strippers. The effect of all the anti union legislation was to make it virtually impossible for workers to protect themselves against changes to contracts and conditions of employment. There's a long list of examples of a government and a prime minister with a complete disregard for those they regarded as opposition or whose votes they didn't need. Miners strike, dock workers, Hillsborough, poll tax, Gartcosh, etc. Isn't it strange how Thatcher supported a trade union in communist Poland.? I strongly object to paying for her funeral.

Binners - mad how he could go from Rik to

[img] [/img]

binners - Member

I've told you a million times, do not exaggerate!

I was trying to be concise, what I should have said was that Scargill would rather have had miners do meaningless work of zero value, than accept redundancy.

Does that jog your memory?
Or are you another who sees Scargill as a hero? 😆

On the QT point. I think Charles Moore must definitely have been living in a different country to me during the 80's, as I didn't recognise a single element of the drivel he was spouting, at all

In the same way that Polly Toynbee was certainly living in some sort of alternative dimension to me during the Nu Labour years. As the Socialist Utopia she describes sounded absolutely brilliant!!! Wish I'd have been there instead

So which of them did you think was worse? I couldn't quite decide.

Watching This Week afterwards, I thought Shirley Williams' comments were interesting - she seemed to be strongly of the opinion that Thatcher was a significant figure and worthy of a state funeral because she was the first woman prime-minister (and for those wondering, when asked if it could have been her, she said she was too disorganised).

I'd love to be as uncomplicated as you, and see life through such a simplistic prism. It must be so much easier when everythings so clear cut and black and white. Like Richard Littlejohn, there's not much room for nuance in your world is there?

So, to summarise, is this right....

Not liking Thatcher = huge Nu Labour groupee? Hero worshiper of Arthur Scargill? Possibly a communist?

That pretty much cover it?

So which of them did you think was worse? I couldn't quite decide.

They balanced each other out; Menzies came across the best - middle ground opinions likely to make most sense I suppose

Hero worshiper of Arthur Scargill? Possibly a communist?

I'd suggest probably a fool myself, given the harm he did to the cause of the miners and the union movement (it is good to see him showing his true colours nowadays).

Menzies came across the best.

I was somewhat surprised how fawning he was - had to double check who he was, as I was thinking they already had Ken Clarke on as the Tory.

I don't think either Thatcher or Scargill gave a shit about the very real lives they were wrecking as they stubbornly banged their heads together

Both viewing people as mere collateral damage to be sacrificed at the alter of their monstrous ego's

I was involved with a miners' support group during the strike. In coversation with the miners I was told in no uncertain manner that they backed the NUM 100%. I don't think they'd have allowed Scargill to agree to any settlement that Thatcher would find acceptable.

This is brilliant, sums her up:

[img] [/img]

It's probably helpful (though I'm sure unwelcome since it doesn't fit the prevailing narrative of current times) that Thatcher's view of Hillsborough was based on official police reports that have only recently surfaced and have been since shown to be untrue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17238494

Given that that she wasn't there, and the "view" and reports came from a number of people who were directly involved including the then Chief Constable of Merseyside, is it fair to make her 100% culpable for forming an opinion based on the above when the reports came from public servants who include a cohort that appear to have deliberately sought to mislead everyone on the role the police played?

She may have been misinforemed over Hillsborough, but she leapt onto the hatred of football fans bandwagon with delight.

Wsaswas - That's absolutely superb!!! I absolutely love Posy Simmonds stuff too. Should be good!

[img] [/img]

Given that that she wasn't there, and the "view" and reports came from a number of people who were directly involved including the then Chief Constable of Merseyside, Sir Kenneth Oxford, is it fair to make her 100% culpable for forming an opinion based on the above when the reports came from public servants who appear to have deliberately sought to mislead everyone on the role the police played?

It's pretty much the same as the sexed up WMD report for Iraq. The civil servants created the reports required by their political masters.

Hora - that'd be the twenty-something student shackled with massive debts, who can't get a job because the economy was crashed by bank speculators?

All Thatcherite policies.

Hora - that'd be the twenty-something student shackled with massive debts, who can't get a job because the economy was crashed by bank speculators?

All Thatcherite policies.

[b]So lets pretend Labour wasn't in power for a decade then up until the crash. [/b]

Thatcher started it - Blair was as much a child of Thatcher as Cameron.