That really should settle it once and fro all.

None of this enduro/gravity enduro nonsense

I struggle with long sentences 😉

Sneak editing just for Juan

I struggle with long sentences?
WTF?

z1ppy – Member

I struggle with long sentences

It means that enduro was invented in The Motherland France, (and that Juan is the original enduroist round these parts). I will duly refer to the events I enter this year as ‘very long xc races’ from now on. 😀

I struggle with long sentences
I‘m Not Reading All That Stuff

Or something like that

Did he really try and argue that the UK has only just got Euro style Enduro events (rather than Endurance events) because endurance events were being called Enduro? 😮

so, 6 posts and 5 of them relate to the interpretation of an acronym 🙂

Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature. The law prevents racing of bicycles on bridleways. There are very few decent areas in England and Wales in which a course of over 40k would not go along or cross a bridleway. To modify a course to avoid bridleways would more often than not make the course a fire-road slog that bores the pants off most people. So call it what you want but there is more to the reason why we struggle to mimic the French, Italian, Spanish events than just the name.

pistonbroke – Member
Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature. The law prevents racing of bicycles on bridleways. There are very few decent areas in England and Wales in which a course of over 40k would not go along or cross a bridleway. To modify a course to avoid bridleways would more often than not make the course a fire-road slog that bores the pants off most people. So call it what you want but there is more to the reason why we struggle to mimic the French, Italian, Spanish events than just the name.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I think you may have missed the point of the article slightly. Competitive VS non-competitive is not the main point here. The main point is the incorrect naming of something “Enduro” which isn’t Enduro, and hence the spread of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about what’s out there, format-wise.

Also, Trail centres trails aren’t bridleways as far as I know. So why hasn’t the UK been racing Enduro at trail centres since 10 years back?

Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature.

Did you read the article!?

That be why most marathons (not Enduros) are non competitive… It’s not saying enduro is unpopular in the UK, it’s saying that what we call enduros, aren’t actually enduros, they’re marathons.

Marathon – long ‘XC’ ride, often non competitive, Kielder 100, CRC Marathons etc, hereto called ‘enduros’ in the UK

Enduro – half XC/half DH, time limit on the climbs, timed on the descents.

Unfortunately many trail centres are criss crossed by bridleways and the law says that bicycle racing is illegal irrespective of having the landowners permission. It’s a mess which caused the demise of the man vs horse vs bike nearly 20 years ago. Thankfully the law hasn’t been tested whereby insurers would not pay out for injuries sustained on events that included bridleways and as such could be construed as illegal.
I’ve done several events such as off road Duathlons which are out and out races and use large sections of bridleway.

Nail on head, Njee.¨

Pistonbroke, sorry, although the comments you make are valid, you are missing the point (that’s not what the discussion is about). Read Njee’s post 🙂

Unfortunately many trail centres are criss crossed by bridleways and the law says that bicycle racing is illegal irrespective of having the landowners permission.

That’s why the stages take place on bits that aren’t bridleways. Again, not talking about marathons here.

Sorry for having got the wrong end of the stick, I thought that the article was bemaning the slow progress of enduros due to lack of organisers wanting to put these events on.

No, it was bemoaning the fact people think like you 🙂

Trifle unfair njee, after all what’s in a name? It could be worse, they could be called Trailquests then nobody would know what they involved. 😕

There was a smiley in there for a reason! The article does make a good point, that we are missing out on a potentially excellent discipline of racing (I’d like to try one) because of the name!

Thanks njee20 and pistonbroke for this “duel” exchange which hightlights the whole problem perfectly.

One has no hope of discussing and progressing a subject if one party thinks they know what the subject is, but doesn’t (BECAUSE someone somewhere chose to misuse the term “Enduro” and then spread its misuse throughout the land).

I genuinely believe this to be a major source of the impedement in the advent and development of the Enduro discipline in the UK.

I thought this was a thread about curly hair?..

Maybe I should set up a company who organise enduro event in the UK… And get rich.
Or not.

Isn’t there some way around the law whereby the only part that could be considered racing would be the actual timed section of the course? Anything else would be simply riding from A to B.

Afterall, rally car drivers are not considered to be racing on public roads when they are between special stages.

Does it actually matter though?

Does what matter?

Bruce Wee, without wishing to send the discussion up a blind ally as I did yesterday apparently, the legal position is summed up here by IMBA. Paradoxically it is perfectly legal to race rally cars, enduro motorbikes, runners and horses along or across bridleways provided the necessary permits are granted. It is even possible to race bicycles on footpaths and byways if given permission. This is why events like the Trans Wales have linking sections and special stages but even then if the ss is along or across a bridleway eg a lap of Nant Yr Arian, it is illegal even with FC permission. The law is an ass.

When talking about Enduros are we definately talking about the same thing (just to come full circle in the discussion)?

My understanding is that only the downhills are timed while the climbs are simply transit stages so you only have to reach the start of the next timed stage within a time limit. The time you take for the climb is irrelevant for the final result.

Therefore you would only have to find long enough downhill sections that didn’t cross bridleways and this should be possible in most trail centres although I’m not sure what the legal status of trail centres are.

The alternative is for everyone to just move to Scotland 🙂

Strictly speaking, you are right that there could be a case for the timed sections being in non bridleway area, however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers’ ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on. I also wouldn’t want to be the one that was bombing down an untimed bridleway with a racing number on and caused a solicitor’s horse to buck and injuring them sufficiently to promote a 6 figure personal injury claim on me or the organiser. Not sure if a judge would spot the subtle difference between a race and an enduro.

however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers’ ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on

Examples of these events which are blatantly flouting the law? 😕

I also wouldn’t want to be the one that was bombing down an untimed bridleway with a racing number on and caused a solicitor’s horse to buck and injuring them sufficiently to promote a 6 figure personal injury claim on me or the organiser

FTFY – how does the fact it’s a ‘race’ change that scenario? If you crash into someone on a bridleway (or anywhere) through your own negligence then tough.

The Haworth Mudman Duathlon, unfortunately now defunct,bike section ran mainly on bridleways, the Kielder offroad Duathlon, the Coed Y Brenin Duathlon, the timed sections of the Trans Wales at Nant Yr Arian and , I think, in the Dyfi forest. All these events are races timed to the second and awarding prizes for winners etc, and these are just the ones I’ve either done or know the course of. I’m not trying to be a killjoy but often the organisers don’t know the law themselves.
I think my comment about racing numbers cannot be disregarded, competitors in such events will not just be pootling along in ones and twos and someone being injured by a rider with a number on will not necessarily care whether they were on a timed section or not. They see a race number, they will think there is a race going on.
BTW anyone know how the organisers of the Llandegla Duathlon or the British Cycling Go Race or Firemans Race deal with the bridleway that runs straight through the middle of the bike course?

I meant enduros – which your comment implies:

Strictly speaking, you are right that there could be a case for the timed sections being in non bridleway area, however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers’ ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on

Not duathlons and what not, which have long up and down hill competitive sections, all of which are timed. Enduros don’t, they have short timed descents only, I see no reason you can’t do a good enduro 100% legally in much of the UK, on various trail centres if you want.

BTW anyone know how the organisers of the Llandegla Duathlon or the British Cycling Go Race or Firemans Race deal with the bridleway that runs straight through the middle of the bike course?

I’ve done plenty of races that cross a bridleway, they have a marshal point and signs saying “non-competitive zone” – generally about 5 feet long, which is presumably a legitimate way around it. I imagine it’s similar.

Incidently, there are enduros in England and Wales already.

http://www.ukgravityenduro.co.uk/public/About.aspx?id=112

I remember a SAMS race at Queen Elizabeth Country Park with a forced dismount where the course crossed a fire road (that was a bridleway). Not entirely sure that carrying bikes over it would have counted as “not racing” if it came to a court of law, but there you go.

“enduro” comes from motorcycling does it not where it is laps and the total laps in a fixed time wins

I’m not having a go at Gravity Enduro or Enduro organisers, Lord knows we need good events which are well run. My observations relate to events which I have personally done in which the organisers seem unaware of the law, if enduros are specifically run to avoid such conflict then I applaud them. I would much rather see bodies such as IMBA, British Cycling and even the CTC trying to sort out this stupid law.

TJ I think that the motorcyle events you are referring to were called Hare and Hounds events, a true enduro involves a very long loop of 40-50 miles, done 2 or 3 times in a day. The lap is broken down into several sections for which there is a target time and penalties for clocking in early or late. Ties are worked out by Special Tests where the fastest rider from A to B wins.
I competed in these events for 12 years and ironically the trails we used to race on were often bridleways.

So what Enduros are there in the UK, apart from the 661 ones? I fancy having a crack at one.

TJ is right (and it also states in the article) the name “Enduro” comes from motorbike Enduro…. BECAUSE IT HAS A VERY CLEAR SIMILARITY TO MTB ENDURO: linking sections and timed sections.

Pistonbroke, you STILL do not seem to realise what racing format we mean by “Enduro”. Be honest: have you actually read the article (rather than glossed over it)?

If so, then seriously, what the heck are you on about??
What I mean is: whilst ALL of the points you make about legalities, etc, etc may be correct, you are WAY wide of the whole point of this discussion. No one would ever think about running an Enduro race along a bridleway.

Again: we’re talking about “untimed-up / timed-down” rally-style Enduro RACES. i.e. real Enduro (e.g. the new UK 661 series). I’m still pretty convinced that you’re not talking about these, you’re talking about non/semi-competitive long-distance mass XC rides which have been INCORRECTLY TAGGED “Enduro” by some organisers in the UK, hence the whole point of the article !!!!

(it’s so funny how illustrative this exchange right here is, of my motivation for writing the article)

Flyingmonkeycorps- there is also now a series for 2012, based down South, called Enduro1.

There’s one at Glentress this year as part of TweedLove, end of May.

Ooh, TweedLove, that might make for a good long weekend. Nearly went last year (mainly for Frightened Rabbit) but didn’t make it in the end.

Kinda wish someone would run one at Dalby or Cannock, for localness.

Ive done loads of motorcycle Enduros – usually 3 or 4 hrs long. All of it counts, we didnt do timed sections, but some do.

When crossing bridleways we do so at walking pace with a marshall ensuring walkers are not squashed.

In reality there are never any walkers, but we still have to slow down to cross. Once we had to dismount as we crossed over. Courses were many miles long (one or two tankfulls).