[Closed] That really should settle it once and fro all.

[url= http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I struggle with long sentences ]I struggle with long sentences[/url] 😉

Sneak editing just for Juan

I struggle with long sentences?
WTF?

z1ppy - Member

I struggle with long sentences

It means that enduro was invented in [s]The Motherland[/s] France, (and that Juan is the original enduroist round these parts). I will duly refer to the events I enter this year as 'very long xc races' from now on. 😀

I struggle with long sentences
[b]I[/b]'m [b]N[/b]ot [b]R[/b]eading [b]A[/b]ll [b]T[/b]hat [b]S[/b]tuff

Or something like that

Did he really try and argue that the UK has only just got Euro style Enduro events (rather than Endurance events) because endurance events were being called Enduro? 😮

so, 6 posts and 5 of them relate to the interpretation of an acronym 🙂

Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature. The law prevents racing of bicycles on bridleways. There are very few decent areas in England and Wales in which a course of over 40k would not go along or cross a bridleway. To modify a course to avoid bridleways would more often than not make the course a fire-road slog that bores the pants off most people. So call it what you want but there is more to the reason why we struggle to mimic the French, Italian, Spanish events than just the name.

pistonbroke - Member
Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature. The law prevents racing of bicycles on bridleways. There are very few decent areas in England and Wales in which a course of over 40k would not go along or cross a bridleway. To modify a course to avoid bridleways would more often than not make the course a fire-road slog that bores the pants off most people. So call it what you want but there is more to the reason why we struggle to mimic the French, Italian, Spanish events than just the name.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have missed the point of the article slightly. Competitive VS non-competitive is not the main point here. The main point is the incorrect naming of something "Enduro" which isn't Enduro, and hence the spread of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about what's out there, format-wise.

Also, Trail centres trails aren't bridleways as far as I know. So why hasn't the UK been racing Enduro at trail centres since 10 years back?

Interesting article but it seems to overlook a major impediment to the spreading of enduros which are of a competitive nature.

Did you read the article!?

That be why most marathons (not Enduros) are non competitive... It's not saying enduro is unpopular in the UK, it's saying that what we call enduros, aren't actually enduros, they're marathons.

Marathon - long 'XC' ride, often non competitive, Kielder 100, CRC Marathons etc, hereto called 'enduros' in the UK

Enduro - half XC/half DH, time limit on the climbs, timed on the descents.

Unfortunately many trail centres are criss crossed by bridleways and the law says that bicycle racing is illegal irrespective of having the landowners permission. It's a mess which caused the demise of the man vs horse vs bike nearly 20 years ago. Thankfully the law hasn't been tested whereby insurers would not pay out for injuries sustained on events that included bridleways and as such could be construed as illegal.
I've done several events such as off road Duathlons which are out and out races and use large sections of bridleway.

Nail on head, Njee.¨

Pistonbroke, sorry, although the comments you make are valid, you are missing the point (that's not what the discussion is about). Read Njee's post 🙂

Unfortunately many trail centres are criss crossed by bridleways and the law says that bicycle racing is illegal irrespective of having the landowners permission.

That's why the stages take place on bits that aren't bridleways. Again, not talking about marathons here.

Sorry for having got the wrong end of the stick, I thought that the article was bemaning the slow progress of enduros due to lack of organisers wanting to put these events on.

No, it was bemoaning the fact people think like you 🙂

Trifle unfair njee, after all what's in a name? It could be worse, they could be called Trailquests then nobody would know what they involved. 😕

There was a smiley in there for a reason! The article does make a good point, that we are missing out on a potentially excellent discipline of racing (I'd like to try one) because of the name!

Thanks njee20 and pistonbroke for this "duel" exchange which hightlights the whole problem perfectly.

One has no hope of discussing and progressing a subject if one party thinks they know what the subject is, but doesn't (BECAUSE someone somewhere chose to misuse the term "Enduro" and then spread its misuse throughout the land).

I genuinely believe this to be a major source of the impedement in the advent and development of the Enduro discipline in the UK.

I thought this was a thread about curly hair?..

Maybe I should set up a company who organise enduro event in the UK... And get rich.
Or not.

Isn't there some way around the law whereby the only part that could be considered racing would be the actual timed section of the course? Anything else would be simply riding from A to B.

Afterall, rally car drivers are not considered to be racing on public roads when they are between special stages.

Does it actually matter though?

Does what matter?

Bruce Wee, without wishing to send the discussion up a blind ally as I did yesterday apparently, the legal position is summed up [url= http://www.imba.org.uk/PRoW/RacingOnBridleways.html ]here[/url] by IMBA. Paradoxically it is perfectly legal to race rally cars, enduro motorbikes, runners and horses along or across bridleways provided the necessary permits are granted. It is even possible to race bicycles on footpaths and byways if given permission. This is why events like the Trans Wales have linking sections and special stages but even then if the ss is along or across a bridleway eg a lap of Nant Yr Arian, it is illegal even with FC permission. The law is an ass.

When talking about Enduros are we definately talking about the same thing (just to come full circle in the discussion)?

My understanding is that only the downhills are timed while the climbs are simply transit stages so you only have to reach the start of the next timed stage within a time limit. The time you take for the climb is irrelevant for the final result.

Therefore you would only have to find long enough downhill sections that didn't cross bridleways and this should be possible in most trail centres although I'm not sure what the legal status of trail centres are.

The alternative is for everyone to just move to Scotland 🙂

Strictly speaking, you are right that there could be a case for the timed sections being in non bridleway area, however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers' ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on. I also wouldn't want to be the one that was bombing down an untimed bridleway with a racing number on and caused a solicitor's horse to buck and injuring them sufficiently to promote a 6 figure personal injury claim on me or the organiser. Not sure if a judge would spot the subtle difference between a race and an enduro.

however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers' ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on

Examples of these events which are blatantly flouting the law? 😕

I also wouldn't want to be the one that was bombing down an untimed bridleway [s]with a racing number on[/s] and caused a solicitor's horse to buck and injuring them sufficiently to promote a 6 figure personal injury claim on me [s]or the organiser[/s]

FTFY - how does the fact it's a 'race' change that scenario? If you crash into someone on a bridleway (or anywhere) through your own negligence then tough.

The Haworth Mudman Duathlon, unfortunately now defunct,bike section ran mainly on bridleways, the Kielder offroad Duathlon, the Coed Y Brenin Duathlon, the timed sections of the Trans Wales at Nant Yr Arian and , I think, in the Dyfi forest. All these events are races timed to the second and awarding prizes for winners etc, and these are just the ones I've either done or know the course of. I'm not trying to be a killjoy but often the organisers don't know the law themselves.
I think my comment about racing numbers cannot be disregarded, competitors in such events will not just be pootling along in ones and twos and someone being injured by a rider with a number on will not necessarily care whether they were on a timed section or not. They see a race number, they will think there is a race going on.
BTW anyone know how the organisers of the Llandegla Duathlon or the British Cycling Go Race or Firemans Race deal with the bridleway that runs straight through the middle of the bike course?

I meant enduros - which your comment implies:

Strictly speaking, you are right that there could be a case for [b]the timed sections[/b] being in non bridleway area, however this has not been the case so far either due to organisers' ignorance of the law or turning a blind eye to get a good event on

Not duathlons and what not, which have long up and down hill competitive sections, all of which are timed. Enduros don't, they have short timed descents only, I see no reason you can't do a good enduro 100% legally in much of the UK, on various trail centres if you want.

BTW anyone know how the organisers of the Llandegla Duathlon or the British Cycling Go Race or Firemans Race deal with the bridleway that runs straight through the middle of the bike course?

I've done plenty of races that cross a bridleway, they have a marshal point and signs saying "non-competitive zone" - generally about 5 feet long, which is presumably a legitimate way around it. I imagine it's similar.

Incidently, there are enduros in England and Wales already.

http://www.ukgravityenduro.co.uk/public/About.aspx?id=112

I remember a SAMS race at Queen Elizabeth Country Park with a forced dismount where the course crossed a fire road (that was a bridleway). Not entirely sure that carrying bikes over it would have counted as "not racing" if it came to a court of law, but there you go.

"enduro" comes from motorcycling does it not where it is laps and the total laps in a fixed time wins

I'm not having a go at Gravity Enduro or Enduro organisers, Lord knows we need good events which are well run. My observations relate to events which I have personally done in which the organisers seem unaware of the law, if enduros are specifically run to avoid such conflict then I applaud them. I would much rather see bodies such as IMBA, British Cycling and even the CTC trying to sort out this stupid law.

TJ I think that the motorcyle events you are referring to were called Hare and Hounds events, a true enduro involves a very long loop of 40-50 miles, done 2 or 3 times in a day. The lap is broken down into several sections for which there is a target time and penalties for clocking in early or late. Ties are worked out by Special Tests where the fastest rider from A to B wins.
I competed in these events for 12 years and ironically the trails we used to race on were often bridleways.

So what Enduros are there in the UK, apart from the 661 ones? I fancy having a crack at one.

TJ is right (and it also states in the article) the name "Enduro" comes from motorbike Enduro.... BECAUSE IT HAS A VERY CLEAR SIMILARITY TO MTB ENDURO: linking sections and timed sections.

Pistonbroke, you STILL do not seem to realise what racing format we mean by "Enduro". Be honest: have you actually read the article (rather than glossed over it)?

If so, then seriously, what the heck are you on about??
What I mean is: whilst ALL of the points you make about legalities, etc, etc may be correct, you are WAY wide of the whole point of this discussion. No one would ever think about running an Enduro race along a bridleway.

Again: we're talking about "untimed-up / timed-down" rally-style Enduro RACES. i.e. real Enduro (e.g. the new UK 661 series). I'm still pretty convinced that you're not talking about these, you're talking about non/semi-competitive long-distance mass XC rides which have been INCORRECTLY TAGGED "Enduro" by some organisers in the UK, hence the whole point of the article !!!!

(it's so funny how illustrative this exchange right here is, of my motivation for writing the article)

Flyingmonkeycorps- there is also now a series for 2012, based down South, called Enduro1.

There's one at Glentress this year as part of TweedLove, end of May.

Ooh, TweedLove, that might make for a good long weekend. Nearly went last year (mainly for Frightened Rabbit) but didn't make it in the end.

Kinda wish someone would run one at Dalby or Cannock, for localness.

Ive done loads of motorcycle Enduros - usually 3 or 4 hrs long. All of it counts, we didnt do timed sections, but some do.

When crossing bridleways we do so at walking pace with a marshall ensuring walkers are not squashed.

In reality there are never any walkers, but we still have to slow down to cross. Once we had to dismount as we crossed over. Courses were many miles long (one or two tankfulls).

No one would ever think about running an Enduro race along a bridleway.

That's fine then, where do I sign up?

As I understand it, the main reason Midland Trailquests broke away from British Mountain Bike Orienteering is that BMBO events involve visiting all the Control Points in order, with the rider doing it in the shortest time being the winner.
MTQ events are all score events, where riders visit as many CPs as possible within a time limit, choosing their own route.

It might seem a trivial difference, but BMBO events were seen as not following the letter of the law regarding "racing" on bridleways.
Although MTQ events are timed, they get round this by being "Navigation" events, not "Speed" events.

[i]No one would ever think about running an Enduro race along a bridleway.[/i]

You'd think someone wouldn't plan to run downhill races on some of the most controversial cheeky trails in the Surrey hills, too. But they did.

MTG, It was much more complicated than that, I was there.The root of all evil was the main issue.

[i]I was there[/i]

Splitter!

😉

Tell me more, pistonbroke.
I've only heard it all third hand and it always seemed a trivial matter to start a breakaway club over, considering the "racing on a bridleway" thing had never actually caused any problems.

Not sure it's a subject for a public forum, if you mail me I'll reply.

So then, enduro is a word that, in English, has more than one meaning? However will the language cope!

It's unfortunate that there's been a confusion in the nomenclature but to scream "YOU'RE USING IT WRONG! WAAH!" seems a little petulant and not the most constructive way to reduce the confusion the dual meaning has caused. And really, is telling the British people that they're using a word wrong and that they should use the European meaning of the word instead a good way to get them on your side? 😉

There's one at Glentress this year as part of TweedLove, end of May.

You could argue that there'll be one of each type at TweedLove, with the Glentress 7 being a 7 hour lap-based event and the POC King and Queen of the Hill being an "all-mountain enduro-style mountain bike race" (the organiser's words).

They seem to have enduros at Innerleithen on an approximately monthly basis, too.

It's unfortunate that there's been a confusion in the nomenclature but to scream "YOU'RE USING IT WRONG! WAAH!" seems a little petulant and not the most constructive way to reduce the confusion the dual meaning has caused.

Fair point. It's a shame (from my point of view) that you took it as being petulant, I guess this is one of things about written word... it's difficult to convey the tone to be universally taken as intended. I would (genuinely) welcome your suggestion for constructive ways to reduce the confusion that the dual meaning has caused.

And really, is telling the British people that they're using a word wrong and that they should use the European meaning of the word instead a good way to get them on your side?

It's not really about getting people "on my side" though, is it? It's about moving forward and properly developing a race discipline which HAS (for one reason or another) had stunted growth in the UK. By the way, I am both British and European, as per all other Brits 😉

I would (genuinely) welcome your suggestion for constructive ways to reduce the confusion that the dual meaning has caused.

Well for starters accepting that using qualifying words such as "gravity" or "all-mountain" are going to be useful ways to reduce ambiguity about these events in the UK would probably be a good start. Decrying this as "nothing short of a joke" makes you sound a little frothing, I'm afraid. You could try asking organisers of distance/lap based enduros to add appropriate qualifiers to their event names too.

I was under the impression, that the letter of the law would allow people to [u]race the clock[/u], but not [u]directly race other competitors[/u], on the public highway/ROWs, hence the continued running of road motor rallys on open roads, provided the organisers take steps to keep competitors the right side of the highway code.

Getting insurance for events that use sections of ROW however, is a different ball-game entirely ...

accepting that using qualifying words such as "gravity" or "all-mountain" are going to be useful ways to reduce ambiguity about these events in the UK would probably be a good start

In practice, I think you're right. It's gone too far down one route now. Personally, I'm not keen on the use of the so-called "qualifying words" (e.g. "Gravity" Enduro in this case) and think it's a shame, because it's a bit of an implication/false admission that Enduro (on its own) is a 50km+ pedalfest, which it isn't.

Decrying this as "nothing short of a joke" makes you sound a little frothing, I'm afraid

OK, again, fair point, that was probably a bit overzealous in retrospect... but at least it has served a purpose (sparking dialogue between us).

Where I was coming from is that it isn't *really* a 50-50 dual definition term we're talking about here. Mountain bike Enduro has a very defined meaning (as per UCI definitions) and has subsequently been a [b]borrowed[/b] term (in the case of e.g. Dyfi "Enduro" which is in fact a Marathon event as per UCI definition)

What's in a name... People can rightly say that there's a tradition of XC events being called enduros in the UK. But it's not a universal or standard term even for them- there are lots of events that [i]don't[/i] style themselves as enduros. It's not been used consistently even before the growth of "gravity" enduros.

So if those XC "enduro" events change their tag, it's not only more correct in international terms, and IMO fairer to the growing "gravity" sport, it's also less confusing on national terms for the XC events.

"Endurance" or "marathon" is plainer english too- you might have to ask what a Coed y Brenin Enduro is, if you're not a racer, but you'll never have to ask what a CYB Endurance XC Race/Event is, or a Selkirk Marathon.

"Gravity" enduro will suffer more if it can't use the word- it's the internationally understood term for it of course, and there's not really an equivalent already out there so it would mean taking an established format and making up some new term- very confusing.

And having to use adjectives like "XC enduro" and "Gravity enduro" just confuses things further, and can be offputting- there are people who won't do a "gravity enduro" because they're worried about the "gravity" part, who wouldn't be put off at first sight without it.

TBH I think it's only right for XC events to stop using the title- they can do so with minimal negative impact and even some benefit, so even if you disregard the issue of who has the[i] right[/i] to it, it's still the correct thing to do. Both parties will benefit. TBH I reckon it's pretty disappointing they haven't already done it, doesn't reflect well on them at all.

flyingmonkeycorps - Member

So what Enduros are there in the UK, apart from the 661 ones? I fancy having a crack at one.

Innerleithen MTB Racing run very, very good enduro events every couple of months- there's one this weekend in fact, which is sold out but will still have some in-person entries, and a "night-and-day" one in a few weeks. Can't recommend these too highly...

I hope Ash doesn't see the Mondraker preview in the latest What MTB... "Gravduro", deary me. 🙂

There is an Australian Magazine called "Enduro" and as far as I can remember it's about long distance XC type events not gravity stuff.

I hope you all ride your specialized Enduros for these event too. Otherwise that's another law flaunted....

DrP