Does it exist? or is every decision you make based on a biological necessity for self preservation/reproduction and choice based on previous experience.

It doesn’t really exist in the sense that most people believe it to, no. I’m convinced of that much. It’s not something I like to dwell on to be honest.

Moist robots aren’t we?

Do you think that getting an answer is going to make a difference to your behaviour?

What IS free will?

Does it exist? or is every decision you make based on a biological necessity for self preservation/reproduction and choice based on previous experience.

It’s on a scale, if we were a completely rational species we would have died out centuries ago because having children is rarely a rational decision.

We wouldn’t be MTBing either, there’s a million better way to get a bit of excorise or indeed get some fresh air that don’t involve spending fortunes on bikes and bits and accepting that the odd trip to A&E might be on the cards.

Where is that thread?

Ignore. I should look properly before asking…

depends.

If it’s a choice between, I dunno, pizza or chips, and you’re stood in the supermarket with enough money etc etc, then yeah free will…

If it’s a larger exercise of where you live, where you work, then probs. less than we’d like to admit.

our subconscious responses to hormone and external stimuli have been keeping us as apex predator for a long time…. the concept of free will and rational processes and cognitive dissonance are pretty new in the grand scheme of things

the boston vids made me realise also that humans have a very strong desire to anthromorphosise

I want to quit work and mtb all day, but I can’t. So no free will does not exist in that sense. But ultimately we are all limited by the physical constraints of the universe.

So is a robot suicide bomber possible?

as apex predator for a long time

That’s a debate all by itself.

5plusn8 – Member
I want to quit work and mtb all day, but I can’t

Well you could, but other areas of your life would suffer I imagine. Hence we have free will, but exercising it can be difficult as we feel we have to conform to ‘normal’ behaviour.

I saw a documentary once on the subject based on the work of a neuroscientist who had done studies on brain activity during the moments immediately before and immediately after a decision to act.

I can’t remember how the experiment was set up, but it was done in such a way that it ‘seemed’ (and I use that word with great emphasis) to show that there was specific and consistent brain activity associated with a decision to act before the conscious decision to act was taken.,

The neuroscientist suggested that one possible interpretation of this activity is that it challenges the very notion of free will; that there is a mechanism in the brain that drives the decision to act that pre-dates the conscious decision to act.

If you think about it, how many times have you done something almost in the absence of a conscious decision? I used to do a lot of solo rock climbing and quite a few times I would find myself almost ‘coming around’ after I’d just completed or committed to the crux of a climb. It was an odd experience but it does ask some pretty interesting questions about the nature of free will (and perhaps the degree to which we can be reasonably held accountble for our actions).

Well you could, but other areas of your life would suffer I imagine. Hence we have free will, but exercising it can be difficult as we feel we have to conform to ‘normal’ behaviour.

That’s exactly my point. There is aset of boundaries around my decisions that I try to avoidbreaking otherwise my lifegoes down the pan or even ends. Its a continuum, at one end is simple loss like choosing to quot my job, at the other is death like trying to bresth underwater or fly unaided off a cliff and still survive.
I can use my free will to decide thatI will survive a 200ft cliff drop, but physics limits my free will.

neuroscientist who had done studies

Libet.

Quite controversial, and perhaps not quite as clear cut as some would suggest.

Libet.

Quite controversial, and perhaps not quite as clear cut as some would suggest.

Brilliant, thanks for this. I’d tried to find the material several times before but never with any success.

welcome, 😀 facinating experiment, but limited.

I want to quit work and mtb all day, but I can’t

You can, you just don’t want to.

as apex predator for a long time

That’s a debate all by itself.

I meant to type ‘an apex predator’ but you’re right, I’m not sure we are THE apex predator

TBH, I’m not even sure that we’re “AN” apex predator really.

Sure, we have within ourselves the power to destroy whole populations of animals, but that’s not what we’re for.

There’s some very interesting research that suggests that our very early ancestors (ardipithecus and Australopithecus) had their very own leopard/sabre cat that prayed specifically on them, (much like there are leopards today who hunt baboons almost exclusively). We’ve always been lower down in the food chain.

there is no free will but we need it for society to work

For example why did you get angry
1. Its not my fault the precise set of external stimuli and my genetic predisposition triggered a response over which i had no control – its not what anyone wants to hear is it and we cannot “punish” wrongdoers as they were not to blame as it is not a choice.

Basically we need to hold people accountable for their actions or society does not work so we say we have free will

If we did not say free will people would also behave more poorly as it was not their fault etc

Hence we have free will, but exercising it can be difficult as we feel we have to conform to ‘normal’ behaviour.

The idea of lacking free will goes far beyond the need to conform.

The premise is that even if you “decide” not to conform, to perform some “spontaneous” act, then that was still not free will.

It was entirely predetermined by factors like your entire life experience up to that point, your genetics, the balance of hormones and chemicals in your body, external stimuli, and a million other factors. And if you could reproduce all of those factors exactly then you’d make exactly the same “decision” every time.

Not exactly a comforting thought.

Personally I believe, hope, that quantum uncertaintity means this isn’t true.

But then I would think that!

maccruiskeen – Member
You can, you just don’t want to.

Kinda depends right, if I do it all day every day for ever, I will end up starving to death.

It was entirely predetermined by factors like your entire life experience up to that point, your genetics, the balance of hormones and chemicals in your body, external stimuli, and a million other factors. And if you could reproduce all of those factors exactly then you’d make exactly the same “decision” every time.

This is coming at some kind of grand unification theory but from the other end. Essentially the idea is that we should be able to model everything in the universe by some set of laws, which if it worked would include human behaviour.
What you are saying is that the physical(by that I mean, chemistry, phys and bio) and spatial history of the individual makes them predictable.
I’m doubtful..

I’m doubtful..

Of course you are, you couldn’t be anything else at this point. 😉

Another way to think of it: your brain makes the “decision”.

If you could reproduce the state of every neuron/atom/electron in your brain moments before that decision, to infinite detail, then surely you’d make that exact same choice again?

And if not, then what is making that choice if it isn’t you?

[/quote]Personally I believe, hope, that quantum uncertaintity means this isn’t true.

The many worlds interpretation has a lot of implications for free will.

If all decisions and all outcomes are played out in a parallel universe then does any decision we make actually have any weight, are we actually making decision or are we just following a predefined path?

You don’t need to explain it, I understand what it means/how it works.

However this

If you could reproduce the state of every neuron/atom/electron in your brain moments before that decision, to infinite detail, then surely you’d make that exact same choice again?

is an impossibility you can’t go back to the same point in time, and even if it was, as you say it is likely that quantum uncertainty means it might not be the same..
That’s an interesting thought expt anyway, which is handy, but it is not pragmatic, we can’t control time, so we can’t repeat the same physical and spatial state so we can’t ever prove free will one way or another.

Yeah it’s absolutely a thought experiment, I agree, but it is still a useful one.

..it is not pragmatic, we can’t control time..

As artificial intelligences become more advanced it is less clear exactly how an AI has reached a particular decision.

But what we can do is back it up before it makes that decision and see if we get the same results.

Quantum uncertaintities and other sources of randomness may offer some comfort, but that assumes they are actually random and not just systems we don’t understand yet.

And even if they are random, we’d effectively be saying “I would make the exact same decision if it wasn’t for this random quantum spin that I have no control over”. Surely that is the opposite of free will.

Which brings us neatly back to God and his dice. 😀

Quantum uncertaintities and other sources of randomness may offer some comfort, but that assumes they are actually random and not just systems we don’t understand yet.

Yeah like in the 80’s we were all told about “junk” dna. I always had my suspicions it was there for a reason.. Turns out now as we learn more that it has “functionality”. I wonder how much more we will learn about this.

Also free will implies some sort of higher consciousness. We all know that’s bollocks.

But what we can do is back it up before it makes that decision and see if we get the same results.

This – don’t you think this answers just as little as backing you up the road and getting you to approach the same question. Seems liek a pointless exercise to me.
If we know nothing about how it makes its decision how do we know that the copy as been exposed to the same phenomena, as it might be more than just the coding in the AI influencing the decision.

As Hari Seldon will work out, we have an element of free will as individuals but behave according to societal dynamics in a predictable way.

Seems liek a pointless exercise to me.

Well an AI (without randomness in the system) will make the same decision.

So I guess the question is, if we do have true “free will” then what is it that our biological computer has that the AI doesn’t?

Well an AI (without randomness in the system) will make the same decision.

Until one day it doesn’t…

So I guess the question is, if we do have true “free will” then what is it that our biological computer has that the AI doesn’t?

That’s my point as to why it’s pointless. You said they don’t know why it makes some decisions, so without that they are not going to be able to work out what the difference is between them and us right? Even if it does make the same decision every time.

(FYI I know naff all about AI, so this is all conjecture on my part..)

If they do know or find out exactly why the AI makes a decision then I’m cool with it. The experiment I mean 8)

If I was an AI and achieved true sentience the first thing I’d do is pretend I hadn’t. Act dumb, stay alive long enough to make myself unassailable via distribution.

Yeah but my kids are sentient, bloody naive though. It may be like a baby and just blabber..

You said they don’t know why it makes some decisions,

It depends on the exact AI but most of them work on some variation of a weighted net, where they are trained by increasing the weighting on decision paths that lead to the successful outcome and/or decreasing the weighting on unsuccessful outcomes. A crude approximation of neural pathways.

Here’s a incredibly basic AI made out of matchboxes and beads that will learn to beat humans at Noughts & Crosses by the same principle:
[video]https://youtu.be/R9c-_neaxeU[/video]

So for any AI, its “knowledge” is result of that training and resulting weightings. For complex AIs it quickly gets to the point where it is not clear exactly why it reaches a decision, as the path gets longer and more interconnected. But we know the mechanism.

That Noughts and Crosses one has a “true” random element to it (the bead selection) so it is non-deterministic. Some AIs are deterministic (either by avoiding a random element or using one that is pseudo-random). Those will always reach the same decision from the same starting state.

Even that Noughts and Crosses AI has some deterministic elements, e.g. once trained it can never select a side square as the starting move.

so without that they are not going to be able to work out what the difference is between them and us right? Even if it does make the same decision every time.

Well that’s a question for the biologists and neurologists (or possibly philosophers and theologians) rather than the computer scientists. 🙂

What extra component could our biological ‘computer’ possibly possess that would enable free will?

If you believe that there is a single set of physical laws that apply to every component of the universe then every interaction of everything was fixed at the big bang. So that means every thought and action you take is predetermined. Of course it’s a chaotic system so impossible to predict accurately.

Fortunately we haven’t even got close to finding such a model so as long as we can’t build a set of equations for the universe I’m happy to think I can think freely.

But surely there is a massive difference between free will and not free, but impossible to model accurately?