Is there such a thing as a 'supermarket only' town that everone in this thread seems so worried about? i dont live out in the sticks but most towns (with a supermarket) that ive been to still have butchers, bakers, corner shops etc. Its not like its a one way thing where youll end up with only a supermarket, other shops will still be around, sure the poorly run ones who blindly plod along will prob go but youll still have choice.

But unless the smaller shopkeepers can compete financially, the vast majority (me included) will vote with their wallets and go to the supermarkets.

Depends on what you value as important. People value local services and will pay a fair price to keep them. It's a community thing. The rest however are like you.

What local shops need to do is going the french way: open at 8:30 in the morning, stop at 12 and reopen at 2:30 to close at 7pm. So you can go shopping when you go back from work. But yes, where are you going to buy your sandwich at lunch time then? I guess Tesco wil still be open.

People value local services and will pay a fair price to keep them

In the main they won't IMO

How many small indie filling stations survive on locals valuing their [more] personal service over the cost of a litre of unleaded?
Most people with families can't afford to use the small shops for the majority of their shopping – have you tried kitting a couple of youngsters out for going back to school via the local clothes shop? – there's no point buying good quality clothes/shoes, they'll have ruined/grown out of it in 3 months anyway

Well we don't have a choice for clothes, there is nowhere (other than charity shops) that sell them in the nearest town, which is most definately suffering from shoppers going to the two Tesco's within 8 miles.

In the main they won't IMO

No, because they value convenience and immediate price over the possibility that their local community is suffering.

It's really sad.

But yes, where are you going to buy your sandwich at lunch time then?

make them the night before for a quarter of the price then use the change to make up the difference when you go an support your local community, if it really is anymore expensive anyway.

No, because they value convenience and immediate price over the possibility that their local community is suffering.

It's really sad.
This is the sort of statement I really don't get. Why on earth should anyone buy locally for those reasons? Fair enough if you want to buy specialist foods or really appreciate quality over price. But to spend more on stuff just because some bloke in his corner shop might suffer otherwise is mind-boggling. (In my opinion). The example regarding petrol and local fuel stations sums it up perfectly.

I don't understand why the importance of a flourishing local community is difficult to grasp.

Towns with a good mix of independent stores, that sell a wide range of products, where people mix, chat and feel part of a community, where they know the shop owners and the other shoppers are dwindling (we even built a few, Telford and Milton Keynes for example), the vacant shops look crap, the remaining ones struggle to survive, the town becomes run down and dilapidated, people start to lose a sense of pride and stop caring about the place they live in.

People demanding convienience and the cheapest price on everything are what is driving the incredible expansion of out of town superstores, starving towns of their vital commerce.

When I found out Sainsburys were opening a store in my village I was dismayed, as it has a flourishing market and several butchers bakers etc. I had a chat with one of the butchers a couple of weeks later. He thought it was great – no need to drive 8 miles to the nearest affordable supermarket! I didn't know what to think then. Turns out nearly all the local shop owners and staff do their shopping at Sainsburys!

m-f, what you describe is exactly how I feel. I like the people in my deli, for example. I want their business to survive, so I'll spend in there even if it's more costly than Tesco. Their shop helps to make the street look nice, bonus IMO. And whilst Tesco profits dissappear into some random offshore fund, some part of the profit from the deli is reinvested in my community.

Also, how is Tesco convenient for me? It's 5 miles away, whereas I can walk for everything I need here. Can't get fish unless I get up early on a thursday though, or go into Salisbury on Saturday morning.

I don't understand why the importance of a flourishing local community is difficult to grasp.

Conversely, why is convenience (for the majority), choice and good value difficult to grasp?

And whilst Tesco profits dissappear into some random offshore fund, some part of the profit from the deli is reinvested in my community.

How is this then? Your local shops are buying the same mass-produced* stuff the supermarkets sell. Yes your shopkeeper gets to 'invest' in the locality, but in the same way, the staff of the supermarkets do.

*I appreciate that some things are specialist and not available in supermarkets and those are the sort of shops I like to visit and they are the sort that have more chance of surviving the onslaught of the supermarkets as they are not trying to compete, they have diversified and found a USP.

to spend more on stuff just because some bloke in his corner shop might suffer otherwise

You're paying £2 a pop for a small jar of adulterated tomato puree, and you're worried about value for money? 😛

You're paying £2 a pop for a small jar of adulterated tomato puree, and you're worried about value for money?

Do I?

Is that not what Lloyd Grossman sauce is? I bought some a while back for a 24 hour race, can't remember how much it was, but it was ming.

Is that not what Lloyd Grossman sauce is?

Yes it is, but I buy sauces on special offer – I rarely buy them when they are full price. And anyway, how much would that jar of sauce cost in your local deli? To compare prices, you have to compare like-for-like. Fair enough, some people have the time to prepare meals from scratch every night. I like to do so myself, but when I do not have time, I am happy to bung a jar of sauce over some chicken.

*I appreciate that some things are specialist and not available in supermarkets and those are the sort of shops I like to visit

Would that be shops for 'discerning gentlemen' 😉

People demanding convienience and the cheapest price on everything are what is driving the incredible expansion of out of town superstores, starving towns of their vital commerce.

If that's what people want why shouldn't they have it? – have you tried telling them they're all wrong & you're right?
If a supermarket isn't wanted by the locals, they won't use it & it'll close PDQ, the fact that most stay open pretty much points to the locals wanting them.

Would that be shops for 'discerning gentlemen'

No all that stuff comes, under plain wrappers, from a specialist website based in Germany… 😉

Uplink, you're overlooking the fact that a supermarket is a chain. If a privately owned local shop isn't doing well, then it will close. If a supermarket isn't doing well, then its parent company can suck up the loss.

Tesco owns lots of land that they haven't been given permission to build on. It isn't making them a profit, so by your logic they should sell it, but that's not the way these people work.

you have to compare like-for-like

If you do that, the supermarkets will always win. What you should be doing is comparing what you actually need – i.e. the essentials – with the overpriced overprocessed shite that supermarkets like Tesco try and punt to you.

If a supermarket isn't doing well, then its parent company can suck up the loss.

Like M&S did recently you mean?
CLICKY M&S FOOD STORES CLOSURES

If you do that, the supermarkets will always win. What you should be doing is comparing what you actually need – i.e. the essentials – with the overpriced overprocessed shite that supermarkets like Tesco try and punt to you.

I said a long time ago on this thread that I buy what I need, not what they 'punt on me' – put it this way, I have never bought dog food because it is on half price, then gone out to buy a dog.

Tesco owns lots of land that they haven't been given permission to build on. It isn't making them a profit, so by your logic they should sell it, but that's not the way these people work.

they can do what they want with it – it's theirs

Uplink, you're overlooking the fact that a supermarket is a chain. If a privately owned local shop isn't doing well, then it will close. If a supermarket isn't doing well, then its parent company can suck up the loss.

I don't disagree with that but if the store was consistently empty – they'd eventually close it, all the locals need to do is stay away & use the corner shops etc.

If that's what people want why shouldn't they have it? – have you tried telling them they're all wrong & you're right?
If a supermarket isn't wanted by the locals, they won't use it & it'll close PDQ, the fact that most stay open pretty much points to the locals wanting them.

All makes perfect sense, until you consider the impact of maybe just 10% of shoppers moving from the local shops to the supermarket, the local shops can't absorb the falling revenue this causes so some close, then more people are forced to go to the supermarket, and so it goes.

It's not about right and wrong, it's about considering the wider implications and making the best choices you can, not just for yourself but with consideration for the kind of society we want and the kind of places we want to live in, if more people want to live in a society where personal interaction is not the norm, where we all go to one of half a dozen huge corporations for almost everything we buy, where those corporations try to maximise their profits by squeezing the last penny out of their suppliers and by the introducing more and more self service checkouts (won't have to talk to anyone then, how wonderful) then I think that is incredible short-sighted and desperately sad.

M&S is a perfect example of a large business that has sustained massive losses and bounced back.

All makes perfect sense, until you consider the impact of maybe just 10% of shoppers moving from the local shops to the supermarket, the local shops can't absorb the falling revenue this causes so some close, then more people are forced to go to the supermarket, and so it goes.

Where I am there are 3 large supermarkets within 2 miles + a handful of of Aldi/Lidl type shops – there are also quite a few small shops, butchers, bakers etc. I don't see the wholesale closure of any of them happening – they all appear to be thriving, in fact the butchers & bakers near me has been there at least as long as I have [50 years] & the supermarkets have been there 20 or so years, if not more [my memory is not good at my age 😀 ]

I wished they closed all the 'Gregs' down.
Around the corner from out local Gregs is a fantastic bakery, their pasties cost a few pence more, but have better ingredients and are totally delicious.

Greggs is amazing. I think I would go there if I needed to fatten up for the Iditabike, or if I wanted to commit suicide by ODing on lard.

I wished they closed all the 'Gregs' down.
Around the corner from out local Gregs is a fantastic bakery, their pasties cost a few pence more, but have better ingredients and are totally delicious.

That I agree with. What certain contributors on this thread seem to be missing, is that by shopping at supermarkets, you don't HAVE to exclusively buy ready meals, crisps, pop and cake. And some supermarkets produce is, in my opinion, every bit as good as the stuff available in some local shops. The fact is, people are free to shop where they want and can each make their own choices based on what quality they want versus the value they put on it versus the convenience they need.

Of course, some shops may be a victim of the supermarkets existence, but that will be because a significant number of people have made their own concious decision that the produce does not represent value for money – and why should anyone shed a tear for a business that is unable/unwilling to adapt.

Of course, good local businesses will thrive. For example, there is a great deli in Northallerton, North Yorkshire that has won national awards and is fantastically successful, because rather than trying to compete with supermarkets, it has developed its niche and people appreciate it and therefore spend money there.

I just don't see why anyone should prop-up businesses unwilling to adapt to market conditions.

you don't HAVE to exclusively buy ready meals, crisps, pop and cake.

Of course not, but that is what they're geared for. Compare the selection of potatoes in your average supermarket to the selection of crisps.

Of course not, but that is what they're geared for.

I can't disagree with that, but I don't see why that means we should shun them – I am a supermarket whore – I just buy (in general) the stuff that I need which is on offer. And other convenience things like baby stuff on the way home from work, which just gets bunged in the back of the car.

Where I am there are 3 large supermarkets within 2 miles + a handful of of Aldi/Lidl type shops – there are also quite a few small shops, butchers, bakers etc. I don't see the wholesale closure of any of them happening – they all appear to be thriving, in fact the butchers & bakers near me has been there at least as long as I have [50 years] & the supermarkets have been there 20 or so years, if not more [my memory is not good at my age ]

I'm sure there will always be exceptions, I was in Bridport & Axminster last week, Bridport is thriving and had a great vibe about it, saw a Morrisons a little way out of town, think there may have been a Waitrose in the centre too. Axminster, with a Tesco and Co-op within walking distance of the centre, looks like it's on it's arse, maybe it's always been like that, never been there before. Bridport is certainly much bigger and can probably sustain two supermarkets better.

I just don't see why anyone should prop-up businesses unwilling to adapt to market conditions.

It's not just that though is it, you're not propping up businesses, you're maintaining a town centre community where people met and interact and socialise, leaving things to marktet conditions alone (pure capitalism) will mean smaller businesses will suffer, Tesco's own research says that there is a net reduction in jobs in an area where a Tesco is built for a start, but hey that's ok, it's market driven!

Don't people go to supermarkets as they have free parking and open long hours? Make people pay for parking and encourage the local shops to open longer hours and jobs a good un. Well maybe not that simple. I do think that you should not be able to be able to park for free though at a supermarket or any out of town shopping center. The whole of the western by pass in Newcastle could be seen as just a slip road for the metro centre for example.

The only way anything is going to change is for the government to do something but they are going to do sod all for a number of reasons. Politicians live in London which seems to have a better range of small shops than anywhere else I have been, Feels more like a village than a village now, supermarkets probably keep inflation down, and the super markets are a very powerful lobby group. For instance how can small grocers shops be termed a different market to superstores?? (so that they can get around competition laws. )

I agree with your parking comments.
The village local to my Mum introduced pay and display in the 2 small carparks at the very same time as they opened a large Sainsburys/John Lewis, with free parking just outside the village.
It's taken a few years for the village to get back to how it used to be.
They have a pork shop, which feels like you're stepping back in time. The ladies that work there are the same shop assisstants that served when I was a child. The shop looks awful, however the food is superb and all local cheese, pies , cooked meats and all sorts of goodies that you hardly see now but remember having as a child. This is how it's survived.

Make people pay for parking

Make Tesco charge people for parking on their land? Just so a pork pie shop may survive?

mastiles_fanylion I think you should go and live in the US or a while – say Alabama and see what its like living in a small town where the only shop is WalMart. Then come back and tell us whether you like bland cheese and bread as your free market increased choice then.
I used to go to Piggly Wiggly instead although I never got the nerve to buy the pickled Pigs cheeks.
Actually for breakfast the local family diner did fantastic biscuits and gravy – once they got to know me then the coffee got better as well.

m_f I'm taking your comments tongue in cheek.
Having had to shop in America I am thankful that we do still have shops that serve real food.
Everything over there is produced/manufactured with double the sugar and salt contnet of products over here, imo.

mastiles_fanylion I think you should go and live in the US or a while – say Alabama and see what its like living in a small town where the only shop is WalMart. Then come back and tell us whether you like bland cheese and bread as your free market increased choice then.

In my experience of small town America (rural Missouri) the local shops had already gone before the Walmart appeared. Before that we used to make an 80 mile round trip to buy food, toiletries etc.

ebygomm – that certainly sounds rural!

Tesco have just announced they are going to open their 15th shop in and around Cambridge

Lots of opposition to the last one and it has been refused an alcohol licence
Also faces fines for its lorries delivering, narrowing the road and posing a danger for cyclists

Personally hate big supermarkets, can't stand the feeling that i'm being ripped off everytime I go shopping and need to be on my guard at every turn

For instance their noble promise that if you catch them not honouring their deals you get a refund plus the goods
Yeah, great so they pay out to the first customer who catches them and rip all the previous ones off

Don't even get me started on the fire glow bulb above the Tomatoes so they look ripe or the extra slice of meat they always slip in on the deli and that I know is policy

1st i shop at tesco every week and every week i never get everything i want cos the shelves are empty.
Now this country wants to go back to a land of shop owners (i do not) that personal service (if you was a toff) workers just got the scrag ends.
Everybody wants a pub (i do not)and they are closing down cos of cheap booze from the supermarkets. How much is a pint or a short OR a coke in a pub these days.
Love em or hate um If it was not for the super markets prices would be very much higher and everywhere would be closed by 430 and mostly closed at weekends And you would all be moaning on here about gready little shop owners 😕

Personally hate big supermarkets, can't stand the feeling that i'm being ripped off everytime I go shopping and need to be on my guard at every turn

For instance their noble promise that if you catch them not honouring their deals you get a refund plus the goods
Yeah, great so they pay out to the first customer who catches them and rip all the previous ones off

Don't even get me started on the fire glow bulb above the Tomatoes so they look ripe or the extra slice of meat they always slip in on the deli and that I know is policy

Well, don't shop there then! They're hardly ripping you off since you're free to go elsewhere.