sv, you seem to think that the "issues" in Northern Ireland are not related to christianity

If I was to ask the local paramilitary figure how far along his Christian journey he was what do you think his response would be? I believe he would be more interested in how much money he was making from the drugs he sells to the local school kids. Hardly a Christian outlook.

sv,
What if you were to ask him:

-Do you consider yourself a) catholic or b) protestant?

-How would you feel if one of [the other type] moved in to your street/area?

-How would you feel if your son daughter married a [one of them]?

For you it seems that having a "Christian journey" seems to be the definition of your type of christian? (not a phrase I recognise from the bible?)

Others define it differently. Members of these groups are basically a bunch of hoods and tossers, but religious differences created them and feed them.

eat the pudding While you may think that christianity precludes violence / ethnic cleansing and hatred,

I do,because it does.Please don't try and connect it with the tribalism you experienced when you were young.These guys (both gangs) may claim affiliation to Churches which are tailored to suit their own particular hatreds, but they are no more an example of Christian than I am the example of "buff". I have a masters in History, and as such am WELL aware of the wrongs carried out in the name of religion.However,especially in an age that everybody believes in God, claiming you are doing his work,and anybody who disagrees is going to get killed is rather a convenient way of avoiding any opposition.
The old testament especially, is a shining example of how the Jewish people got stuck into anybody they felt like, obviously they have mended their ways…
But to me Christianity is a system of faith which involves trying to treat others the way you would have them treat you.And actually, the British Government created these differences, we could argue the toss as to which century,if it was Cromwell or the Para's.

Do you consider yourself a) catholic or b) protestant?

Would he know the difference in terms of the religous differences?

For you it seems that having a "Christian journey" seems to be the definition of your type of christian?

That was only an example of one question that could be asked.

Members of these groups are basically a bunch of hoods and tossers, but religious differences created them and feed them.

Agreed they are but IMO they know very little about the religous differences. Political perhaps but not religous differences. They are only fed by money and whatever little but of power they have left.

So then you suggest the majority of band members and their families/followers support loyalist paramilitaries. Says a lot about what you think of the people of Ulster.

@sv apologies, took that a bit too far, and I take it back. I don't suggest the majority of band members and their families/followers support loyalist paramilitaries at all.

What I'm suggesting is that much of what flute bands refer to and celebrate is basically sectarianism, bigotry and violence towards Catholics/Irish, and is therefore offensive to many (not just Catholics/Irish either) and has no place a public event such as the opening of a tesco store in Bellshill, Scotland.

duckman,
Read your holy book please.
Start with (maybe twice)
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:17-18

and then google all the apologists who explain how:
"its a mistake" [in the bible!]
"they deserved it because god is 'holy'" [… presumably means genocidal, but in a moral way?]

I am verifiably more moral than your purported god, based on what he wrote himself (and you probably are too), so please get over apologising for this divisive murderous creed (you can recover and it does get better :o)

What I'm suggesting is that much of what flute bands refer to and celebrate is basically sectarianism, bigotry and violence towards Catholics/Irish, and is therefore offensive to many (not just Catholics/Irish either) and has no place a public event such as the opening of a tesco store in Bellshill, Scotland

feenster agree there are some bands that are very offensive I was just pointing out that there are proper muscial bands that do march and celebrate certain historical events. They play well know songs, hymns and the national anthem of the UK!

The Tesco thing certainly was a mistake!

the national anthem of the UK

The most offensive tune of all for many 😉

there are proper musical bands that do march and celebrate certain historical events

all these events relate to 'we' beat 'them'

WTF is a dumb ass march for? what does it achieve? does anyone march to celebrate anything positive and enlightening? bollox do they. they're sad twisted morons.

The most offensive tune of all for many

Oh well – not much you can do about a country and its nationality/national flag/national anthem!

WTF is a dumb ass march for? what does it achieve? does anyone march to celebrate anything positive and enlightening? bollox do they. they're sad twisted morons

Not particularly keen on the marching myself but hey if thats what they want to do – knock themselves out. I suppose in their 'world' it is important to remember and celebrate the 1690 victory. The Bloody Sunday/Easter Rising etc marches are important to certain sections of the communities also.

Duckman
I understand the point you are making but it is not me who is claiming they were done in the name of religion but those who perpetrated the acts.
Therefor ereligion is a factor in crusades, pogroms, Spanish inquistions and in NI [ though this is more tribal I agree]

duckman,
Read your holy book please.
Start with (maybe twice)
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:17-18

and then google all the apologists who explain how:
"its a mistake" [in the bible!]
"they deserved it because god is 'holy'" [… presumably means genocidal, but in a moral way?]

I am verifiably more moral than your purported god, based on what he wrote himself (and you probably are too), so please get over apologising for this divisive murderous creed (you can recover and it does get better :o)
Nicely put.

Confusing mild religious difference with the real reason for the conflict in N.I. seems to be alive and well it seems. I always thought that's what some British people did to make themselves feel better (or superior, or both).

Duckman far too busy earning a living to contribute as I would like to but as others above have commented, the UVF is a self proclaimed Christian organisation.

People with your views have cherry picked the bible for centuries.
Oh and by the way the "Golden rule" predates christianity.

Religion "claiming all the good bits" shocker!

I suppose in their 'world' it is important to remember and celebrate the 1690 victory.

Before I explode, are you saying that the Orange Order marches that have traditionally centred around July 12th are just to celebrate a victory in a battle over 300 years ago? I just want to check….

trying to tie this into all the music threads with a quite from Rush (best everything):

Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled

orange order claim to be christian (huge joke) and don't seem to mind marching with the pipe bands. all tossers. every last one – including some of my relatives. incapable of reasoned defence of their beliefs, other than 'our version of what god said, says so'.

Feenster wrote: "Not many people realise or understand why fans of a Football club in Glasgow so visibly and fanatically affiliate themselves with Ireland."

It's because they're c***s. Likewise for the ones in the union jacks. It's not so much a religion issue as a c*** thing IMO.

It was probably a deliberate publicity stunt for the opening by overzealous new manager but will be be blamed on someone else ,as you would.
In Bellshill ,where said store opened ,it will be more of a laugh than a sectarian blunder but if it was a few miles away at say Coatbridge then it would be a totally different story.
How I love the west Of Scotland…..not.

n Bellshill ,where said store opened ,it will be more of a laugh than a sectarian blunder but if it was a few miles away at say Coatbridge then it would be a totally different story.

Whereas in Larkhall I believe it's compulsary 😉

@Northwind

It's because they're c***s

deep man, deep

are you saying that the Orange Order marches that have traditionally centred around July 12th are just to celebrate a victory in a battle over 300 years ago?

Yes. I await the explosion 🙂

Pudding,you state that all Christianity is a murderous divisive creed? and I am apologetic about it? So by dint of that why am I not in a paramilitary organisation?I made my point of what I felt Christianity means for me, and I have never felt the need to apologise for it.If there are people like,well all the Christians I know, where does that leave your above points? I noticed that you went for Numbers, why not the gospel of John? That is far more relative for modern Christianity.
Surfer,some people have a belief system that doesn't conform to your opinion of how it should,why do you have a problem with that?

Critics of Christianity in "claiming the best bits of the bible" shocker!

How I love the west Of Scotland…..not.

I live here and have never yet even noticed any divisions first hand, though I'm told lots about them.

They only booked the band because Mel Gibson turned them down.

duckman
Ever heard the phrase "The same, yesterday, today and forever"?

You worship the same god who thought it was moral to order the genocide of a whole tribe/nation (except for the female virgins) [and theres more].

If the bible was written/inspired by god it is perfectly valid to criticise a religion based on that book for _everything_ it says.

At the risk of "godwin"ing myself (but bear in mind we are actually discussing the subject of genocide), how would you react to someone who said that "hitler may have done some unfortunate things, but I feel that recent discoveries about his early artwork and vegetarianism show him in a different light for the 21st century"

I'm afraid no number of mountain based sermons get you out of the "moral genocide" club.

You're probably thinking something along the lines of "theres an explanation somewhere for all of this I just don't know it yet" or "it'll all become clear someday" because you probably think that Xianity is an internally consistent moral framework established by an infinitely knowledgeable and good diety.

But it isn't and it wasn't.

Just accept that it's all based on made up stories by bronze age tribe, and the need for "difficult" explanations goes away.

You ignored my point that the perpetrators acted in the name of the lord. Despite this you claim the Book/religion has no impact on their behaviour.
The pope has edicts on contraception which results in babies being born in Africa, AIDS being more widespread and children dieing [other factors clearly at work but I notice your lord has not stopped it].
Now the pope may misunderstand the word of the lord but I reckon, if you ask him, he thinks he is doing god's work , on earth through our saviour Jesus blah blah blah.
Most non religious people think condom use to prevent AIDS is OK iirc.
The religious belief is often central to the act committed including barbaric ones.

Pudding you have just rehashed your first statement. Does my membership of a Church and belief in Christianity make me responsible for the acts you describe? And by dint of this mean I condone them? Yes or no please. That is about a close as saying that you,coming from NI are a member of one of the two organisations just because you went to a Prod/Catholic School,even if you claim no connection with either creed. After all SOME people who were once labelled Catholics or Prodestants carry out terrorist attacks.Offensive suggestion,yes?
Actually,how do the UVF and the (new)IRA justify their actions? Surely it is to preserve their way of life,as they see it, and religion is a handy add-on?

You're probably thinking something along the lines of "theres an explanation somewhere for all of this I just don't know it yet" or "it'll all become clear someday" because you probably think that Xianity is an internally consistent moral framework established by an infinitely knowledgeable and good diety

Get over yourself

Junkyard,At no point did I claim the Bible had no impact on their behaviour. Charles Manson claimed to be inspired by Helter Skelter by the Beatles, does that mean the Beatles are at fault for his actions? And all Beatles fans murderers?
Again, the point I have made is that people can bend any book,in this case the bible to suit their purpose. That does not mean they represent all Christians or are responsible for all Christians.Nor does it mean, as Pudding seems determined to attach to me,that I condone or excuse their actions.I would suggest that the Pope's edicts on contraception would be linked to a desire to make Catholism remain the largest religion in the world.I am with the "most people" on this, why wouldn't I be?

duckman –

people can bend any book,in this case the bible to suit their purpose

which is what you do on a daily basis? No?

every christian sect claims the bits that suit them and says all the others have it wrong. you'd say the Orange order have it wrong, they can't be 'real' christians if they don't love catholics, they'd say you have it wrong if you tolerate gays etc.

nutters

idave, bible says to do unto other as you would have them do unto you. To me that means tolerating all people,who has that one right,me or the Orange order?

duckman,
It's a book you think god wrote.
It says clearly and explicitly that it's OK to commit genocide (and also to have your neighbors rape the female members of your family, to spare your guests).

So, just to be clear, are you saying god is wrong? or
admitting he used to be immoral genocidal maniac but is much better now?

Oh, and if you don't think that

Xianity is an internally consistent moral framework established by an infinitely knowledgeable and good diety

What do you believe?

As the great biblical scholar duckman once said:

Get over yourself

Charles Manson claimed to be inspired by Helter Skelter by the Beatles, does that mean the Beatles are at fault for his actions

he was nuts ah right I see the link you were making between him and christians now 😉

It's a book you think god wrote.
It says clearly and explicitly that it's OK to commit genocide

I think you might be misunderstanding what Christians believe in pudding……..I have always assumed that they are in fact, "followers of Christ"

The Old Testament very clearly and explicitly states "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". However, when Jesus Christ was asked how you should respond if someone slapped you across the cheek, he replied that you should offer the other cheek for them to slap. That couldn't possibly be more different than the teachings of the Bible at the time.

Furthermore he insisted that you should "love your enemy", again, in complete contradiction of teachings of the Bible at the time. The most famous parable of all, was 'the parable of the Good Samaritan'. The Good Samaritan wasn't just simply a "good guy", but he was also a "Samaritan" – a hated and despised people.
That's what made the parable so powerful.

So outraged were the authorities by the heresy and blasphemy of this maverick rabbi, that they crucified him.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ was put on this earth precisely because of the need to spread this new message ……….. mankind was going in the wrong direction, and it needed a 'saviour' a 'messiah' to put it on the straight and narrow.

By all means criticise the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ's teachings which were diametrically opposed to 'revenge' and 'destroying your enemies'……if you so wish. But it is completely disingenuous of you to suggest that Christians believe in everything which Jesus Christ was opposed to.

Pudding, you are stillgoing round in circles.You keep getting back to your warped version of the bible. Pretty much everything in my life as a Christian is based on the New Testament, so for me the moral genocide bit is about as important as putting the Mrs in the shed when the painters are in.

I cannot get over why they use the terms Catholic and Protestant.

Are you having a laugh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne

ernie lynch, duckman,
I think that the bible was written by bronze age farmers.
I don't have a problem with the fact that it describes the antics of a bunch of long dead genocidal rapists.

YOU claim it was written by god/jesus.

The Jesus who (allegedly) said "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matt 5:18 (spot the contradiction?)

If you don't see the activities of the old testament [which god/jesus personally directed, ordered and watched over] as a problem for your 21st century bowing and scraping to the "prince of peace", then I'm afraid it's beyond me to explain to you.

It's nice that YOUR god doesn't commit genocide, rape the innocent and put women in sheds once a month (any more).

But its also incredibly interesting how the version of god/jesus you see in the bible reflects your own 21st century views and opinions so closely?

And I'm not 'warping' whats in there, I'm 'quoting' whats in there.

Unsubtle difference.

I advise you to read it closely cover to cover. Best way ever to abandon the whole thing and start living ;O)

The Jesus who (allegedly) said "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matt 5:18 (spot the contradiction?)

Spot the contradiction? No not really. But that's possibly because I haven't got a clue what it means……….what does it mean ?

ernie lynch, duckman……YOU claim it was written by god/jesus.

I have claimed no such thing………could Jesus Christ even write ?
I thought Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had something to do with it …..no ?

I don't have a problem with the fact that it describes the antics of a bunch of long dead genocidal rapists.

And yet funnily enough, I get the distinct impression that you do have a problem with it………in fact, quite a big problem 😕

Feenster wrote:

"deep man, deep"

It doesn't need to be deep to be true 😉

I have claimed no such thing………could Jesus Christ even write ?

No, but I could have done with him this week – this floor is around a day and half behind schedule – might have been dangerous around power tools though 😯