An old firm game set to music
Like it! I am from Kilmarnock and we used to have to put up with that crap. Till we moved to Dundee and only had to put up with it when the old firm visited.
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Tesco Hilarity! You couldn't make it up!
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Posted 2 years ago #
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sv - Member
The loyalist parailtaries would/could not have survived if the PIRA had not started their thirty years of murder.
Again the IRA and the PIRA were both created AFTER the UVF. They also decomissioned before them as well 2005 v 2009. Why do you think the PIRA /IRA caused the organisations that predated them and outlasted them?The troubles began after an apprentice boys of derry march led to rioting and about 2000 RC fleeing from their homes in NI and a number being destroyed hence the PIRA was formed to defend these communities. They later developed the strategy of armed resistance/long war etc.
To suggest that the bands /marches are just like Morris Men out enjoying tradition is naive it is a very political act.
Also from Kilmarnock FWIW
Posted 2 years ago # -
I love STW. How to equate flutes with violence.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Duckman, sv, you seem to think that the "issues" in Northern Ireland are not related to christianity.
Ever heard of the "no true scotsman" fallacy?
I assume that (using your definition of "christianity" or "religion") the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms and all those other naughty historical facts must have been just the result of bad PR, and nothing to do with religion either?
I grew up in NI, in a pretty ugly area. I used to think (probably like you?) that in this sort of tribalism, religion must just be a bystander or an excuse. But experience has shown me that the divide between "the bands" and "the boys" and the church groups they belong to is a slim to non existent one, and that religion is the main way in which they define themselves (and "the other") on both sides.
Religion is completely central to the conflict.
While you may think that christianity precludes violence / ethnic cleansing and hatred, it seems that some members of sectarian terrorist groups have a broader knowledge of the behaviour of religious groups through history than you do.
PS.. Where I grew up the main place used to identify potential recruits for "loyalist" paramilitary organisations was ... the local band.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I never realised they were so thick, hating and religeous!
And Tesco made an error opening over there...
Posted 2 years ago # -
sv, you seem to think that the "issues" in Northern Ireland are not related to christianity
If I was to ask the local paramilitary figure how far along his Christian journey he was what do you think his response would be? I believe he would be more interested in how much money he was making from the drugs he sells to the local school kids. Hardly a Christian outlook.
Posted 2 years ago # -
sv,
What if you were to ask him:-Do you consider yourself a) catholic or b) protestant?
-How would you feel if one of [the other type] moved in to your street/area?
-How would you feel if your son daughter married a [one of them]?
For you it seems that having a "Christian journey" seems to be the definition of your type of christian? (not a phrase I recognise from the bible?)
Others define it differently. Members of these groups are basically a bunch of hoods and tossers, but religious differences created them and feed them.
Posted 2 years ago # -
eat the pudding While you may think that christianity precludes violence / ethnic cleansing and hatred,
I do,because it does.Please don't try and connect it with the tribalism you experienced when you were young.These guys (both gangs) may claim affiliation to Churches which are tailored to suit their own particular hatreds, but they are no more an example of Christian than I am the example of "buff". I have a masters in History, and as such am WELL aware of the wrongs carried out in the name of religion.However,especially in an age that everybody believes in God, claiming you are doing his work,and anybody who disagrees is going to get killed is rather a convenient way of avoiding any opposition.
The old testament especially, is a shining example of how the Jewish people got stuck into anybody they felt like, obviously they have mended their ways...
But to me Christianity is a system of faith which involves trying to treat others the way you would have them treat you.And actually, the British Government created these differences, we could argue the toss as to which century,if it was Cromwell or the Para's.Posted 2 years ago # -
Do you consider yourself a) catholic or b) protestant?
Would he know the difference in terms of the religous differences?For you it seems that having a "Christian journey" seems to be the definition of your type of christian?
That was only an example of one question that could be asked.Members of these groups are basically a bunch of hoods and tossers, but religious differences created them and feed them.
Agreed they are but IMO they know very little about the religous differences. Political perhaps but not religous differences. They are only fed by money and whatever little but of power they have left.Posted 2 years ago # -
So then you suggest the majority of band members and their families/followers support loyalist paramilitaries. Says a lot about what you think of the people of Ulster.
@sv apologies, took that a bit too far, and I take it back. I don't suggest the majority of band members and their families/followers support loyalist paramilitaries at all.
What I'm suggesting is that much of what flute bands refer to and celebrate is basically sectarianism, bigotry and violence towards Catholics/Irish, and is therefore offensive to many (not just Catholics/Irish either) and has no place a public event such as the opening of a tesco store in Bellshill, Scotland.
Posted 2 years ago # -
duckman,
Read your holy book please.
Start with (maybe twice)
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:17-18and then google all the apologists who explain how:
"its a mistake" [in the bible!]
"they deserved it because god is 'holy'" [... presumably means genocidal, but in a moral way?]I am verifiably more moral than your purported god, based on what he wrote himself (and you probably are too), so please get over apologising for this divisive murderous creed (you can recover and it does get better :o)
Posted 2 years ago # -
What I'm suggesting is that much of what flute bands refer to and celebrate is basically sectarianism, bigotry and violence towards Catholics/Irish, and is therefore offensive to many (not just Catholics/Irish either) and has no place a public event such as the opening of a tesco store in Bellshill, Scotland
feenster agree there are some bands that are very offensive I was just pointing out that there are proper muscial bands that do march and celebrate certain historical events. They play well know songs, hymns and the national anthem of the UK!
The Tesco thing certainly was a mistake!
Posted 2 years ago # -
the national anthem of the UK
The most offensive tune of all for many
Posted 2 years ago # -
there are proper musical bands that do march and celebrate certain historical events
all these events relate to 'we' beat 'them'
WTF is a dumb ass march for? what does it achieve? does anyone march to celebrate anything positive and enlightening? bollox do they. they're sad twisted morons.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The most offensive tune of all for many
Oh well - not much you can do about a country and its nationality/national flag/national anthem!
WTF is a dumb ass march for? what does it achieve? does anyone march to celebrate anything positive and enlightening? bollox do they. they're sad twisted morons
Not particularly keen on the marching myself but hey if thats what they want to do - knock themselves out. I suppose in their 'world' it is important to remember and celebrate the 1690 victory. The Bloody Sunday/Easter Rising etc marches are important to certain sections of the communities also.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Duckman
I understand the point you are making but it is not me who is claiming they were done in the name of religion but those who perpetrated the acts.
Therefor ereligion is a factor in crusades, pogroms, Spanish inquistions and in NI [ though this is more tribal I agree]Posted 2 years ago # -
duckman,
Read your holy book please.
Start with (maybe twice)
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:17-18and then google all the apologists who explain how:
"its a mistake" [in the bible!]
"they deserved it because god is 'holy'" [... presumably means genocidal, but in a moral way?]I am verifiably more moral than your purported god, based on what he wrote himself (and you probably are too), so please get over apologising for this divisive murderous creed (you can recover and it does get better :o)
Nicely put.Posted 2 years ago # -
Confusing mild religious difference with the real reason for the conflict in N.I. seems to be alive and well it seems. I always thought that's what some British people did to make themselves feel better (or superior, or both).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Duckman far too busy earning a living to contribute as I would like to but as others above have commented, the UVF is a self proclaimed Christian organisation.
People with your views have cherry picked the bible for centuries.
Oh and by the way the "Golden rule" predates christianity.Religion "claiming all the good bits" shocker!
Posted 2 years ago # -
I suppose in their 'world' it is important to remember and celebrate the 1690 victory.
Before I explode, are you saying that the Orange Order marches that have traditionally centred around July 12th are just to celebrate a victory in a battle over 300 years ago? I just want to check....
Posted 2 years ago # -
trying to tie this into all the music threads with a quite from Rush (best everything):
Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurledPosted 2 years ago # -
orange order claim to be christian (huge joke) and don't seem to mind marching with the pipe bands. all tossers. every last one - including some of my relatives. incapable of reasoned defence of their beliefs, other than 'our version of what god said, says so'.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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Feenster wrote: "Not many people realise or understand why fans of a Football club in Glasgow so visibly and fanatically affiliate themselves with Ireland."
It's because they're c***s. Likewise for the ones in the union jacks. It's not so much a religion issue as a c*** thing IMO.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It was probably a deliberate publicity stunt for the opening by overzealous new manager but will be be blamed on someone else ,as you would.
In Bellshill ,where said store opened ,it will be more of a laugh than a sectarian blunder but if it was a few miles away at say Coatbridge then it would be a totally different story.
How I love the west Of Scotland.....not.Posted 2 years ago # -
n Bellshill ,where said store opened ,it will be more of a laugh than a sectarian blunder but if it was a few miles away at say Coatbridge then it would be a totally different story.
Whereas in Larkhall I believe it's compulsary
Posted 2 years ago # -
@Northwind
It's because they're c***s
deep man, deep
Posted 2 years ago # -
are you saying that the Orange Order marches that have traditionally centred around July 12th are just to celebrate a victory in a battle over 300 years ago?
Yes. I await the explosion
Posted 2 years ago # -
Pudding,you state that all Christianity is a murderous divisive creed? and I am apologetic about it? So by dint of that why am I not in a paramilitary organisation?I made my point of what I felt Christianity means for me, and I have never felt the need to apologise for it.If there are people like,well all the Christians I know, where does that leave your above points? I noticed that you went for Numbers, why not the gospel of John? That is far more relative for modern Christianity.
Surfer,some people have a belief system that doesn't conform to your opinion of how it should,why do you have a problem with that?Critics of Christianity in "claiming the best bits of the bible" shocker!
Posted 2 years ago # -
How I love the west Of Scotland.....not.
I live here and have never yet even noticed any divisions first hand, though I'm told lots about them.
Posted 2 years ago # -
They only booked the band because Mel Gibson turned them down.
Posted 2 years ago # -
duckman
Ever heard the phrase "The same, yesterday, today and forever"?You worship the same god who thought it was moral to order the genocide of a whole tribe/nation (except for the female virgins) [and theres more].
If the bible was written/inspired by god it is perfectly valid to criticise a religion based on that book for _everything_ it says.
At the risk of "godwin"ing myself (but bear in mind we are actually discussing the subject of genocide), how would you react to someone who said that "hitler may have done some unfortunate things, but I feel that recent discoveries about his early artwork and vegetarianism show him in a different light for the 21st century"
I'm afraid no number of mountain based sermons get you out of the "moral genocide" club.
You're probably thinking something along the lines of "theres an explanation somewhere for all of this I just don't know it yet" or "it'll all become clear someday" because you probably think that Xianity is an internally consistent moral framework established by an infinitely knowledgeable and good diety.
But it isn't and it wasn't.
Just accept that it's all based on made up stories by bronze age tribe, and the need for "difficult" explanations goes away.
Posted 2 years ago # -
You ignored my point that the perpetrators acted in the name of the lord. Despite this you claim the Book/religion has no impact on their behaviour.
The pope has edicts on contraception which results in babies being born in Africa, AIDS being more widespread and children dieing [other factors clearly at work but I notice your lord has not stopped it].
Now the pope may misunderstand the word of the lord but I reckon, if you ask him, he thinks he is doing god's work , on earth through our saviour Jesus blah blah blah.
Most non religious people think condom use to prevent AIDS is OK iirc.
The religious belief is often central to the act committed including barbaric ones.Posted 2 years ago # -
Pudding you have just rehashed your first statement. Does my membership of a Church and belief in Christianity make me responsible for the acts you describe? And by dint of this mean I condone them? Yes or no please. That is about a close as saying that you,coming from NI are a member of one of the two organisations just because you went to a Prod/Catholic School,even if you claim no connection with either creed. After all SOME people who were once labelled Catholics or Prodestants carry out terrorist attacks.Offensive suggestion,yes?
Actually,how do the UVF and the (new)IRA justify their actions? Surely it is to preserve their way of life,as they see it, and religion is a handy add-on?You're probably thinking something along the lines of "theres an explanation somewhere for all of this I just don't know it yet" or "it'll all become clear someday" because you probably think that Xianity is an internally consistent moral framework established by an infinitely knowledgeable and good diety
Get over yourselfJunkyard,At no point did I claim the Bible had no impact on their behaviour. Charles Manson claimed to be inspired by Helter Skelter by the Beatles, does that mean the Beatles are at fault for his actions? And all Beatles fans murderers?
Again, the point I have made is that people can bend any book,in this case the bible to suit their purpose. That does not mean they represent all Christians or are responsible for all Christians.Nor does it mean, as Pudding seems determined to attach to me,that I condone or excuse their actions.I would suggest that the Pope's edicts on contraception would be linked to a desire to make Catholism remain the largest religion in the world.I am with the "most people" on this, why wouldn't I be?Posted 2 years ago # -
duckman -
people can bend any book,in this case the bible to suit their purpose
which is what you do on a daily basis? No?
every christian sect claims the bits that suit them and says all the others have it wrong. you'd say the Orange order have it wrong, they can't be 'real' christians if they don't love catholics, they'd say you have it wrong if you tolerate gays etc.
nutters
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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