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  • Tell me about open water swimming
  • thegreatape
    Free Member

    The situation is thus…

    I’ll happily do in excess of an hour of breaststroke in the pool, reasonable technique wise, not especially fast though.
    I’m working on crawl but it’s early days.
    The pool is half an hours drive away.
    The loch is five minutes walk away.
    Mrs TGA, a fine swimmer, does it with some of her friends and is pestering encouraging me to try it.
    I don’t have a wetsuit, and I bet there aren’t many in my shape.

    I guess my initial question is, is it sensible to be a pretty decent indoor swimmer before trying this, or just crack on and give it a go?

    karnali
    Free Member

    Crack on breaststroke fine. Check tri shops online some will have ex hire suits for sale from this Seadon for about £50

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Open water is much much nicer than pool swimming. Once you get used to it, I think you’ll struggle to get in the pool. Wetsuit cut varies wildly. I found orca to be more generous than most, especially around the leg. Depends where you need to space but neoprene is pretty forgiving.

    One tip, they’re just weeds and they’ll do you no harm.

    Enjoy.

    Moses
    Full Member

    Just get in & swim. You might not do half an hour, five or ten minutes might be enough to start with, but do it.

    Open water swimming is what every kid does at the seaside, it’s not rocket science. You just get into the water & go for it.

    (fwiw, I’m a member of England’s only private open-water swimming club, which is in a drowned quarry)

    sprootlet
    Free Member

    I was an OK pool swimmer but open water had me hyperventilating (I blame watching Jaws when a child).
    Anyhow, decided to get over it with repeated exposure and now prefer it to a pool.
    In answer to the question, you do not have to be a great swimmer but I’d say a wetsuit will make it enjoyable rather than an endurance test. Wetsuits can accommodate all shapes and sizes….
    you won’t regret it!

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Ok, that’s all good. She also tells me the water isn’t that much colder in winter than in summer so you can do it all year round. I remember all about specific heat capacity from school, but still…?

    aracer
    Free Member

    fixed – I can believe that from my experience of swimming in a Loch in summer (in a wetsuit)

    I presume you’re going to be swimming with your wife and others, in which case crack on, it’s great (I swim alone, but wouldn’t recommend that to anybody who isn’t a very strong swimmer)

    Ming the Merciless
    Free Member

    Try some body board swim fins as well, really helps strengthen the legs for cycling.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Yes, there are usually a few folk there, of varying abilities. Looks like I have no excuses 🙂

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    Don’t know about lakes and the like but I grew up by the sea and was used to swimming there. Not that I enjoyed it. Cold (summer or winter).

    Not really swum much since youth days though. Was just something I was forced to do through school or parents. The idea as an adult going to an indoor pool full of people’s piss and grime doesn’t encourage me. Think now I’d rather swim in the sea, though there’s all the pollution and it’s still cold.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    What about boots and gloves, are they essential/recommended/unnecessary?

    hopeychondriact
    Free Member

    What type of man are you then, oh wait, you said breast stroke 😯

    Front crawl and butterfly are where it’s at.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Righty ho 😕

    alpin
    Free Member

    Tell me about open water swimming

    at least that is what goes through me head if i can’t touch the bottom….

    hopeychondriact
    Free Member

    Hey, it could be worse, you could be into back crawl.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    No need for hat/gloves/boots. Man up for the first 5 mins and you soon warm up. Once you start getting cold after that, it’s probably time to get out.

    I’m not sure of the most tactful way to say this, but if you’re worried you might not find a wet suit with a generous enough cut, you might just be okay for insulation and buoyancy without. 😳

    wonkey_donkey
    Free Member

    that’s what goes through everyone’s head! It’s a well known status – “the open water freakout”

    combined with the hyperventilating @sprootlet talkes of and it makes for one hell of a freakout.

    You get used to it. Eventually.

    I’ve only been open water swimming for about 4 months now but it was a bit of adjustment from the pool.

    Not sure it’s “better” but it’s certainly harder and different.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Hey, it could be worse, you could be into back crawl.

    🙂

    I might stick with the one I can do fairly competently to start with. I’m going to look pretty horrendous in a wetsuit anyway, so I don’t think the rest matters too much.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Onzadog – Harsh. But fair…

    sweaman2
    Free Member

    For me it isn’t if the water is open or not it’s that it’s going to be cold compared to a pool (double so for a loch)

    Don’t dive right in but take time where you can still stand to hold your face under and adjust to the sensation. I always prefer a cap but I’m a wimp with respect to cold water.

    MicArms
    Full Member

    my 2 pennies worth.. have got roped into doing a trialthon with work 1st Octber. it’s an open water swim of 1500 metres.
    Like the OP in the pool I can blast out a good breast stroke and can do a mile in about 40 mins.
    Front crawl though, despite my best efforts, I could only ever manage 1 or 2 lengths before spluttering.

    So tried open water swimming at a local boating lake a few weeks ago. Bit nippy in trunks (everyone was in wetsuits), but cracked on with breaststroke. (just like being on holiday, minus the sun, sand and cheap beer.) safety bloke who was recording the times of entry/ exit from the water said just try 20 mins first, see how the cold water affects you.

    Like i said, was cold but after a few mins warmed up and did 4 laps of the 400m cct no probs.
    that was start of July, but thanks to workand an algae break out at the pool I had to carry on training at the pool on my alledged front crawl.. where I got up to the lofty distance of 2 lenghts ( 50 meters ) with out gasping for breath.
    Got myself a wetsuit form local tri shop ( blue seventy spirt for 115 quid ) got to try it for the first time 2 days ago.

    A wetsuit does help with leg buoyancy for the front crawl. the open water place is marked out with 4 buoys in diamond pattern , each a 100 meters apart. I find that in the open water, I could swim slower , and get to do a 100m leg, tread water get breathe back, then crack on again. However after 2 laps was blowing out my hoop so swam to the side to get out. Had a chat with the safety bloke, saying I just couldn’t sort out my breathing, as was trying to do 3 strokes, breathe, 3 strokes breathe, 2 stroke breath and spot. ( spot= looks where the **** Im going). he said when he’s fresh in the water he does 3 strokes to every breath, but when tried, drops down to 2, and spots just before the lead hand goes into the water..

    So back out, tried the 2 strokes, breathe and spot..**** me backwards.. could do the 100m between the buoys without looking like a floundering asthmatic pit pony!! tried this for one lap to find which side I perferred breathing on, then last last , did the 400 meters non stop. Came out the water beaming!! Now I can do the breathing I can work on my stroke technique, so well happy..

    Just give it a go.. but short durations to begin with, walk in slowly to the water to give the body time to acclimatise. A wetsuit will help no end.. wiggle do their OCRA TRN one for 100 quid and gets a good write up, my blue70 sprint is on sale for about 80 quid from cyclesurgery.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Thanks – that’s very encouraging. Interesting to read about your front crawl issues, as that is exactly where I struggle. I can do it fine (the breathing anyway, technique no doubt still leaves a lot to be desired) breathing every second stroke, I just really struggle with doing it every third. Not due to being out of breath by then, but struggling to get my head turned enough on the left side. I was watching the WC swimming last week, and saw that a lot of the distance swimmers were breathing every second stroke. Maybe I had got a bit fixated on the Total Immersion / SwimSmooth advice which strongly advocates bilateral breathing.

    IainGillam
    Free Member

    Breathing bilaterally is the best thing to do when learning to swim and if you don’t incorporate it early on you’ll need to reverse errors built up by breathing only to one side in the future. Bilateral breathing is not breathing every 3 however, it is only being able to breathe to either side comfortably. The reason for it is the worst part of your stroke is the catch and pull phase of the arm you stroke with whilst breathing. If you only breathe to your favoured side this gets worse and worse and your stroke becomes more asymmetrical leading you to (literally) go in circles in OW where there is no nice black line to guide you.

    For OW swimming breathing only to your favoured side is fine, OW isn’t the place to work on swim technique – leave that to the pool. Breathing every 3 in the pool (or every 4 or 5) is better as the stroke when you are not breathing will be your ‘best’ technique and you can see what you are doing hence the more you can do that the more improvement you’ll have.

    For OW the cold and a wetsuit will have a large impact on how easily you can breathe and are the cause of nearly all of the panic people have when starting out. Hence just do what ever is most comfortable for now. For later on breathing every 2 is still useful as it mitigates for loosing a breath if you get hit with water (or just plain get hit!) But you will notice at a high level swimmers switching which side they breathe every 2 to, for sighting on objects or people or dealing with waves etc. being fixed to one side is not good.

    Re the cold, I go double (normal) swim cap and no other bits and pieces, leave the gloves/ boots as you want your hands and feet as they are normally. Keep moving and it’s fine.

    Re wetsuits, wetsuits make breast stroke kick difficult (large thickness of neoprene on legs for buoyancy reducing the flexibility.) So perhaps try without first if you plan on breaststroke. The wetsuit will make FC easier by lifting your legs and putting your body in a more correct position. The key mistake people make with them is not taking the time to put them on properly. Give yourself 20mins to get into it, if you just wing it on it’ll be tight around the chest and shoulders making it harder to breathe and exacerbating panic and will be much more fatiguing on the shoulders during the recovery phase of the stroke. Get it on your legs and pull it up so it is uncomfortably high in your crotch (don’t worry if this means the bottom of the leg is mid calf or higher it doesn’t matter.) When putting the arms on you want as much material as possible right up by your armpit/ shoulder area, again if the arms fall short of your wrist it’s no bother. Done right the shoulders shouldn’t feel too tight.

    Iain

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Thanks Iain, that makes a lot of sense re all the breathing stuff.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    When racing triathlon I was/am only interested in the technique that gave the fastest time with the least fatigue. That meant unilateral breathing on the right unless wind and waves were coming from the left. I swim straight, only needing to spot a couple of times between buoys. Like any other aerobic sport, breathe lots. Breathe fully, fully emptying and filling lungs as you would climbing on a bike. The more air you get the faster and easier you’ll swim.

    Have a look a some Youtubes on swimming technique. There are various schools of thought but you’ll be better using any of them than trying to interpret what me or anyone else types here.

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    The loch is five minutes walk away.

    Triathlon calls for you my friend

    Run to the loch, swim, run home.

    And if you are really man/ape enough… do it all in your banana hammocks… 🙂

    There are plenty of big old boys n girls doing Tri…. Have a look on Orca/2xU/Speedo web sites for wetsuit sizes… They have comprehensive sizing charts for wetsuits. See if there is anything that you think will fit then go and have a try on… the right wetsuit will defo help its almost feels like cheating 🙂

    IainGillam
    Free Member

    Thanks Iain, that makes a lot of sense re all the breathing stuff.

    No worries, as an aside if you really want to improve your FC get coaching asap. Contrary to the above I also wouldn’t watch loads of Youtube stuff and try and emulate it. Your perception of what you are doing in the water is nearly always wrong therefore trying to correct what you think your doing wrong doesn’t work that effectively and normally brings in other issues. You don’t need coaching to get to a competent level but when you want to go above that level you’ll need to spend a lot of time working on fixing the issues you have created. Get it right first time at the start and the process is much quicker.

    Over the past 3 years I dropped 1-1:30 of my 1500 OW time per year for the first 2 years and this year I’m about 3:30 off last years time. The difference is more coaching, for the first 2 years I did a fair bit of coaching and a fair bit of swimming (6 times a week.) Now I have lots more coaching and a slight increase in volume (probably 6-7 per week ave but up to 8 times a week on occasion.) Oh and being a good swimmer is hard work I’m still rubbish despite a bit amount of focused work.

    Iain

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Get someone to film you if you’re worried that you can’t see what you’re doing. First Youtube result:[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyR7JYllk9U[/video]

    IainGillam
    Free Member

    But you find most people think they are doing the same as that video but when you look at them they really aren’t. Also that’s not the most efficient style for open water or necessarily the most efficient style for you (or anyone else.) The animation is Jono Van Hazel In graphic form who happens to be your typical swimmer, most people don’t have the physique to pull this off. I’m 6’5″ with hands like dinner plates and feet like flippers – The swinger style is more efficient for me because my APE index is the wrong way round for a pure swimmer and my ankles are far to inflexible for an effective kick. Also I’ve never been to a pool and seen anyone with a stroke rate as high as JVH, it looks slow but google him and there is a better SS video of just him which shoes stroke rate information. People trying to copy him tend to slow down their stroke rate to 40/45 or lower to get that smooth style missing that he is at 70+ and hence their stroke is nothing like the clip. Triathletes and OW swimmers as a starting point are generally best off emulating the Harry Wiltshire swimsmooth clip as the choppy style works better OW.

    With the video analysis it’s not a ‘one and done’ type thing. You do one you correct something then you need another. I think the swimsmooth stuff is great and have used it a lot. As it happens I am coached by a swimsmooth coach and see him at least once a week for a 1-1. I am also nearly into double figures for the amount of proper video analysis sessions I have had with a variety of swimsmooth coaches over the years. Still what I think I’m doing in the water bears little resemblance to what is actually going on when you review the videos.

    Don’t get me wrong, you can get to a fairly good level with no coaching but you need coaching to progress to a really good level.

    Iain

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    My wife is a pretty decent and formerly competitive swimmer, nor is she shy in telling me when I’m doing something wrong.

    bamboo
    Free Member

    @MicArms – where did you try it out? I believe you are Stourbridge/Clent based aren’t you?

    Cheers

    Edukator
    Free Member

    The club coach gave up on me years ago (about eighteen years ago) and I swim gently up and down in the lane with those who swim for pleasure rather than worrying about the pace clock. I’ve been slowing down steadily for the last fifteen years despite swimming at least a couple of times a week. Age and falling off bikes and skis are not good for swimming.

    Coaching may help if the OP is receptive to it, I don’t think it helped me much despite having a coach who has an excellent reputation. The odd remark or tease from other swimmers has helped when they’ve pointed out something so obvious they can see it without having to sit and analyse.

    Watching other swimmers and vids has helped most (I’ve shared a lane with some very good swimmers) which is why I’ve suggested it. Each to his own.

    MicArms
    Full Member

    Bamboo, based at Bromsgrove. Do the open water swim at Upton Warren. We’d evening and Sat morning..

    http://www.worcestertriclub.co.uk For info. 4 quid a session for non members.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    4 quid! That’s more than the entry to my local pool which is 50m, open air and heated to 28°C even when it’s snowing. Our club’s open water sessions are free to anyone.

    bamboo
    Free Member

    MicArms – that’s great, thanks. I’m based in Redditch and grew up around Bromsgrove so I know Upton warren well. This thread got me googling and I’ve also found that you can swim at ragley hall on Tuesday/Sunday so will have to give one a go.

    Cheers

    TP
    Free Member

    I have my first open water swim in while coming up. This time I have opted for the wetsuit as last time it was a little chilly.

    I only breathe on one side as water goes too far in my other kinked ear and doesn’t come out for days. Can anybody recommend (one) ear plug(s)? Does anybody swim with ear plugs?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    No but I’ve got a “poire éfilée”, a pear-shaped thing with soft rubber point that goes in your ear to wash it out and blow residual water out. If I don’t use it I get ear infections after swimming in grotty water.

    ebygomm
    Free Member

    I have to wear ear plugs in open water otherwise I get dizzy.

    I use ones like this http://www.wiggle.co.uk/speedo-biofuse-aquatic-earplug/

    IainGillam
    Free Member

    The club coach gave up on me years ago (about eighteen years ago) and I swim gently up and down in the lane with those who swim for pleasure rather than worrying about the pace clock. I’ve been slowing down steadily for the last fifteen years despite swimming at least a couple of times a week. Age and falling off bikes and skis are not good for swimming.

    Coaching may help if the OP is receptive to it, I don’t think it helped me much despite having a coach who has an excellent reputation. The odd remark or tease from other swimmers has helped when they’ve pointed out something so obvious they can see it without having to sit and analyse.

    Watching other swimmers and vids has helped most (I’ve shared a lane with some very good swimmers) which is why I’ve suggested it. Each to his own.

    I think it’s quite a lot down to which coach you get, there are very few good triathlon swim coaches in my opinion out there and it seems everyone and their dog is marketing themselves as a tri coach these days. So in general it takes a while to find the right one but the right one is out there (just up the road in my case!) And in my personal case I credit an awful lot of what I have done this year to my coach. I was only interested in achieving my goals in the minimum time possible and the right swim coach was the only way to fulfil the criteria. It’s not for everyone and I still sort most of my non swim training myself (I like control over my training as at the end of the day I want to be accountable for failing or succeeding.) But you will progress more quickly with the correct coaching than without. I’ve also suffered a similar fate with club coaches suggesting I couldn’t do X or Y but they’re always wrong, press on and find someone that says ‘yes, and here is how we do X’ and you’ll be on the fastest route to achieve what you want.

    But I’m not really a normal situation and if you just want to enjoy swimming, you don’t need a coach at all (not possible for me though as I loath swimming!)

    Iain

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Just back from 50 minutes in the pool with a lane to myself so I could do what I wanted. I started with mini flippers to work on the four beat kick I use when racing in a suit (as per swim smooth vid). You’re right about that vid only being useful if you’re going very fast. Then swam a lazy crawl with my normal faster kick, then back stroke, breast stroke and crawl – day dreaming most of the time and occasionally concentrating on one aspect of my swim, because my brain can’t cope with more than one limb or one other thing at a time.

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