(Good) Teachers are amongst the hardest working and dedicated people out there and the impact their work has on society is impossible to overestimate, all of this in the face of being the most politicised and electorally abused* public servants out there. That said you should be able to kill them if they start talking shop in the pub.

* I know what I mean

As for marking, you only need to know as much as a 6th year kid at the most so its it’s not exactly difficult.

There you are, marked that for you. Are you a retail grocer?

I do have a valid comment, it’s my private sector taxes paying teachers wages so I can comment all I want.

Your sense of entitlement is much more obvious than any validity in your points,or the bollocks you spout about our work.
Thank God I won’t ever teach your kids,after all nobody would have been stupid enough to mate with a weapons grade bellend like you. ” Only need to know as much as a six former…” 😆
Oh and your mate isn’t head of a department. He is a figment of your imagination.

I work in the private sector.

What I do is reasonably straightforward*, I get decent holidays and I am paid a ridiculously vast amount of money.

I’d love to be a teacher, but only if it was constantly like a Brazzers remake of Dead Presidents Society** and I got paid what I do now.

🙂

* No correction for Dunning-Kruger effect has been made
** This perhaps sounds gayer on paper than it actually is, but crucially is nothing like teaching

Its predicted that by 2017 more than 50% of newly qualified teachers will leave the job within 1 year. Currently its 40%. If that is not a massive concern for tax payers (up to 30k tax freeca yearcto train in some subjects) then you are very very stupid or a Tory minister.

I found this quote to sum up teaching very well;

“..Teachers know that the inflection of their voice, the movement of an eyebrow and their attitude every minute of the day when they are with children, effect those children’s ability to learn. And they are with children a lot. So teachers get exhausted when the rest of us simply tire.”

chrisgibson – Member
Actually scratch all I have said, have just been shafted on my performance management despite passing it all.

All which means no pay rise for me and now am looking to leave teaching/school.

Bunch of ******!

This happened to MsT last year, this after gaining an “excellent” report from her first Ofsted inspection and the early years dept gaining the same for the first time 🙄 She is also the schools art coordinator(art/textile design degree) Like you she is looking at her options.
Had her review recently and head advised her to apply for her “pay” rise. Her reply went something along the lines of “to be humiliated again, I don’t think so!”…. However she did and got it, first rise since starting 5yrs ago !!!!
This year her class is full, 30 odd kids aged 4-5. Some are not toilet trained, some have learning difficulties, some have some odd behavioural issues and a number with child protection orders(there will be more soon)
She is as frustrated and overloaded by the social work element than she is trying to manage the teaching elements. With a head that seems to always be off sick when “issues” have to be dealt with and cuts in services that a lot of these kids need.
Says she will give it till she is 40 then move on to something new when her kids are a bit older.

Her brother is an electrical engineer and works similar silly hours to keep ahead of work, having been out of the office(training course and commissioning work)he now has 3wks office work to do, online verification of training course and then deliver training to field engineers !!

When I was their age I was working almost 7days/wk to help house and feed them. They now appreciate why they didn’t see much of me. Not a lot has changed. What has changed is the notion that we are all entitled to the mythical work/life balance which has been spouted as everyone’s “right to have” in recent years.

My dad had 3 jobs and my mum had 2 to keep us fed and clothed.

MrsT is a ScotGov civil servant and the cuts to dept numbers are beginning to bite there now, work is being devolved downwards as department disappear or people move/get promoted/leave etc and are not being replaced.

You’re donating nothing to me…

That’s not true though, is it? My taxes pay for – amongst other things – the education of your staff, the roads you drive on, your healthcare and your security. You wouldn’t have a business without those things. The truth is we all pay for each other, and anyone who doesn’t like it is welcome to emigrate to DR Congo. Tell us how you get on.

As for working harder, my mate gets a morning break, a lunch hour, and has free periods every so often too. As for marking, you only need to know as much as a 6th year kid at the most so its not exactly difficult.

Mrs Pondo gets all of that too, but generally speaking she’ll be working during break (helping those children that go on holiday during term time, plus ones that have genuine issues and really need help), free periods are often cover or a rare opportunity to do planning of her own, and regardless of “easy” the marking is, it’s still a lengthy, repetitive job that, if you want to make it worthwhile, requires your concentration and feedback, it’s not like going through a list of multiple choice answers and making a tick or a cross.

Mrs Pondo had a parents evening last night (home at half seven, no O/T, of course) – one dad turned up and pointed the finger, “you’ve got a negative attitude towards our child”. I have this year, she said, because he’s been disruptive and hasn’t worked, but he was great last year. “No” the man says, “you were exactly the same last year”. I wasn’t, she says, last year he worked hard… The bloke wouldn’t have it – “you’re got an attitude problem”. Mrs Pondo checks her planner – the bloke hadn’t even been to a parent’s meeting before, and she had evidence of the positive feedback she’d given the child at previous meetings and had independently sent home as well. Good job he pays her wages hey, that entirely justifies his behaviour.

There was a comment earlier about employing people who can’t read or write and how can teachers be hardworking if that is the case.

There in a nutshell is where it is a broken system. Students completely lack functional skills because we are not judged on that. Last year we had students supposedly getting A*’s in English coursework who could not read nor write properly in a science exam. Why? They lack the functionality of a skill set.

How does this come about? As teachers we are judged on exam performance not how well a student can actually do in the real world.

My 6th form constantly complain of this, they have no idea how the world works – their parents are rubbish at informing them of things like voting/getting loans/ applying for jobs etc and schools don’t teach any of this because we are forced into following a very narrow set of criteria because if the students don’t get the unrealistic target then we are to blame.

As for the bleeting yes teachers do complain a lot and I am sure other areas of work are hard and long and stressful. The issue is that we as professionals are constantly hammered but it is the students under our care that ultimately suffer.

As I have said it takes years to become a truly good teacher, if the profession is constantly putting off new teachers or pushing them out of the job within a year or two then it is the students, with constant changing of the guard, who bare the brunt of bunt out, frazzled and stressed teachers.

That all is without considering the impact of changing grade boundaries, exam series’ and curriculum. Plus having to suddenly modify our practice to incorporate whatever is currently in vogue with the DFE – thinking skills, deep questioning, marking for progress, marking for improvement, independent working, passive learning, IT use, linear exams, modular exams etc.

I might be wrong though, after all I am a moany teacher!

Trekster- Values in society change, so nowadays, I think people should be able to at least try and get a work life balance. Many people are affected by not getting this balance right, whether it be the children of someone working constantly or the strain it can put on health services from treating stress related issues, along with health issues where they struggle to keep healthy either by eating crap as they are ‘on the go’ or simply not getting enough exercise.

Working long stressful hours takes a massive toll on health, I think it is something our society really needs to put first, whether it be in the public or private sector.

ive clicked on the profiles/forum activity of some of the teachers on here, no spare time.. 😯 😆

got a few mates who teach, one is a head, all say its hard work but say its no more so than many other jobs and also cringe at the constant moaning of some, all of my mates appreciate the pay/time off and pension/job satisfaction..guess its just depends on the person and if they are operating above their level of competence.

I couldnt be a teacher, as im fully aware that i dont have the ability to deal with so many things at once so have chosen a job that i can cope with and still enjoy life…some say my job seems hard, i find it fine..

theres no way id cope with the responsibility of the wifes job, she finds it fine but then shes very good at it…

That said, at least there is some security in teaching. My dad has just said that the factory he works at (major company with no money issues) is cutting 50 jobs before Christmas.

Shocking behaviour.

Job security in teaching is also becoming a thing of the past. Still better than in many professions, but the shift towards academies has made removing a teacher pretty easy (whether they deserve it or not).

The statistic quoted earlier about how few teachers have been sacked for incompetence may be correct, but there are now fairly easy ways to get rid of a teacher without resorting to that – just that the nature of these ways means they will never become a really available statistic.

Regarding the OP’s questions – yes it does get a bit better, but that is mostly because you get numb to the lash.

That being said, I think it is getting harder overall. I’m a ten year man and it has certainly got worse – pay, workload, student to teacher ratio – than when I started in 2005. Just on pay, I have only had a real terms cut every year since 2010, despite promotions and professional development. This is due-in continue until 2018, at earliest.

One of the tiresome debates around this is whose work is harder. Probably the increase of surveillance and tracking technology is making most jobs harder – higher intensity. When you speak to people in their 60s – my Dad’s age – about work in the 1970s it sounds like a right doss.

The decline of unions,new management techniques, monitoring systems and loss of legal protection is making work longer, more intense and increasingly alienating for the majority.

As public sector workers we also have the delights of a lot of people hating us because of their own grievances about their own schooling plus government and systems that would never exist in the private sector because the organisation would go bust.

Its predicted that by 2017 more than 50% of newly qualified teachers will leave the job within 1 year. Currently its 40%. If that is not a massive concern for tax payers (up to 30k tax freeca yearcto train in some subjects) then you are very very stupid or a Tory minister.

shame it’s bollocks though.
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/education/new_teachers_leaving_profession_one_year-41792

Well spotted, the figures talked about in the article are still pretty poor though given the money spunked on training teachers.

From deev’s source:

https://fullfact.org/education/violence_schools_pupil_teacher-921

When a fellow female science teacher was punched in the face the thug was only suspended for three days so wouldn’t have made the statistics. A very good thing though, when the headmaster refused to do anything about said thug and his mafia pushing me around we walked out (mid class, mid day, mid week, mid term). Within a few weeks I’d found jobs for both of us in Nancy, France. Life suddenly got a whole lot better.

Madame still teaches but in France she only goes in three and a half days a week. If you include preparation, marking meetings and admin her yearly work load is comparable with other professions demanding similar levels of qualification, the pay is also comparable – that seems reasonable.

Look on the bright side. As bad/stressful as our working lives are, at least we are not being marched off to be shot at by Germans like our grandfathers.

Well the whingey nature of a lot of teachers fully exposed here. Maybe the vocal nature of this is why newbie teachers are so put off, and why good quality candidates are no longer attracted to the profession?

Luckily the 2 teachers I know seem fairy happy with their jobs and the holidays they get seem used to their full advantage so far as I can see. One (head of department for Geography) regularly posts photos of his many after school rides on Facebook long before I have left the office for the day.

Teachers are to be admired and sure, like most jobs these days, no doubt it’s also a pretty stressful job. Don’t forget though that pretty much all of my other friends in senior responsible private sector professions work longer hours than most of the teaching examples given on here so far, but without any of the job security or holiday entitlement.

So what are my 2 teaching friends doing right compared to those on here whinging? I don’t know but will certainly ask them next time I find the time to get out on one of their rides!

Well the whingey nature of a lot of teachers fully exposed here.

We must be reading different threads. The one I’m reading is full of helpful advice to new teachers on how to cope with the demands of the job. There are also complaints about management bullying, parental abuse and physical assault.

I’m realistic as to why teachers get slagged off here and elsewhere. All those kids in my classes who hated school, hated teachers, didn’t want to be there and failed in the system (or the system failed them); well they’re out in society now, and might even post on here.

I was going to repost on here and update on our situation, which has gotten worse but having reread some of the comments, I’m not going to bother as I can’t deal with the inevitable MTFU and “think of the holidays” comments.

Absolutely no point mate, I’m just waiting for the crumble and fall of the education system which may actually make people realise.

I never really used to appreciate a teacher’s workload but my sister-in-law is an English teacher and she spent every evening over the Christmas holidays marking essays and apparently her treat for Mother’s Day was my brother took their kids out for the day so she could catch up on some marking in peace. Long holidays are only nice if you don’t spend them catching up on work…

My wife’s a teacher and has a real love/hate relationship with the profession: she loves the classroom time and the responsibility and reward she feels towards every pupil she teaches, but hates the “test test test” mentality of OFSTED and the politicising of the sector by government, particularly the constant goalpost moving.

She puts in a lot of hours, both in school and outside, to make sure her lessons are properly planned and that work is thoroughly marked, as well as being involved in clubs and extra curricular activities which are not mandatory, but which she sees the pupils get a huge benefit from.

I think what a lot of non-teachers don’t get (as well as non-doctors, non-nurses etc – and this is not just limited to public sector workers btw) is that it’s not simply a profession, but a VOCATION. And with that comes a real connection to each and ever child (careful…) and a huge sense of duty to do right by them all. No one likes to feel undervalued or shat on in a job, but it’s a damned sight harder if your chosen profession is based in only one or two different “companies” (state schools or private in this case), with little choice or difference in conditions if one moves school.

It should also be pointed out that, for those who seem to despise any and all public sector workers for what appears to be choosing a society-benefitting career, should the plans to turn all schools into academies actually happen, then effectively all the “perks” of being a teacher will disappear as each school or group of schools will be run as a business. Imagine a system where there is no choice but to send your child to a privately run school, but you can’t choose which one.

There are some things that should not be run with profit as the end goal. Sure, they should be run efficiently, but education is about producing individuals with a minimum level of competence in key areas, not money, and not testing all the time at the expense of learning.

(looks like I got to the party a bit late)

My daughter is in her 2nd year if teaching, the first years workload nearly broke her, and she is not afraid of hard work.
She’s getting better at managing it now, but never has a lunch break and works till 7p.m most nights

My wife is coming to the end of her probationary year teaching P2s in Scotland. I can honestly say she is loving every minute of it. She works hard at school from about 08:30 till 16:30 and then the occasional hour at home in the evening. Although it’s hard work it doesn’t compare to the pressures and time required of other jobs she’s had in the past. She does feel like she was born to do it though so that makes a difference to how she feels about it. She’s been offered a permanent contract now and I couldn’t be any more proud of her. She is off on holiday for 2 weeks soon though so I sort of hate her too 😉

My wife is leaving her teaching job at Easter, she’s been doing primary for nearly 10 years and is still working all the hours in the day to try and stay on top of the demands. She recently went part time as we have a baby girl and that just made things worse. I didn’t see her for the first half of the week as she was shut away working until midnight most days. She’s been looking at supply work and she loves the teaching, just not all the other stuff that goes with it and is imposed by the “senior leadership team”. My opinion, whilst the pay is actually alright and the holidays are obviously good the pension isn’t what people think and the hours and stress are not worth it.

(I will say here and now that this is a rambling comment with no real outcome)

Wow.

I haven’t posted often on this site over the last few years…but I’m compelled to do so by this thread. having worked in sales for the best part of ten years and then taught for five I like to think I have a fairly balanced and rounded view of the whole public/ private sector thing.

I suppose it’s good that people feel so passionate about the debate. However to try and demean one another’s careers or chosen paths is rather counter productive.

I’ve worked in multi-national blue chips, recognised as a “high flier” on one hand and experienced corporate bullying and mismanagement on the other.

I’ve seen exceptional talent and utter incompetence in both. Businesses and schools are as unique as the people that are employed by them, the challenges faced are diverse and varied. it is impossible to make sweeping generalisations about either.

Anecdotally do I find teaching easier? No but despite having taught in inner city schools and another that is currently enjoying extra attention from HMI under Ofsted’s section 8 it’s still more enjoyable.

Would I recommend the profession in its current guise? It depends on your values and how well you can manage time and stress. I suspect that recent grads may get one hell of a shock, behaviour and respect seems to be generally declining. An expectation that if a student doesn’t achieve his expected level of progress they haven’t failed, the teacher/ profession has. Having said that, if I had stayed in my previous career I can definitely see the potential in me “going postal”.

Do I really have thirteen weeks holiday? Yes but realistically once you take out time for marking, planning and prep it’s probably about half of that, still not bad but I suppose that’s reflected in the poorer levels of pay generally experienced than compared with the private sector- I’m not complaining I see it as a trade off.

Do I consider myself so stressed that I’m about to leave the profession? Nope, not one bit but I know plenty of incredible individuals who are on the brink through no fault of their own.

To sit here and bleat on about which profession is hardest, who has the biggest bleeding heart story doesn’t help anyone. I would hope we can all agree that we wont the best for our kids and I’m sure that most rational people will admit that there is indeed some sort of issue with education in this country. Until that is recognised, identified and resolved by the powers that be then this country is in a precarious situation. No doubt more and more of Deev’s employees will leave school without the proper skills and our economy and society will be the poorer for it.

Yet Education could learn a lot from industry and a lot of the dyed-in-the-wool teachers need to get on board with that and embrace it instead of being so resistant. Ofsted need a rocket up their backsides because until teachers are no longer forced to teach to tests this unpleasant situation will not improve. Teachers need to be empowered, until parents and students respect them for the professional that most are, we’re on a hiding to nothing.

I’ve got a degree, I’ve got a masters, I’ve got various other bits of paper warbling on about this and that so I am not and will not be treated like “day care” by parents who are, by all accounts pointless. There are signs up on public transport, in doctor’s surgeries, God knows where else saying staff have the right to work without facing intimidation, aggression and abuse so why is it ok for teachers to put up with it everyday in the playground, classroom and at parents’ evenings? This country has some serious issues with general behaviour and morals and if that is not dealt with at home, early on then I hope Her Maj. brings back Military service.

Most of all our kids and their education should not be used as some sort of political tool, they’re too important for that.

godihatehills – Member
Most of all our kids and their education should not be used as some sort of political tool, they’re too important for that.

This.

Do I really have thirteen weeks holiday? Yes but realistically once you take out time for marking, planning and prep it’s probably about half of that,

It always amazes me when I read things like that. I’ve been teaching for 9 years now and in that time I think I have done 2 days of work during holidays.

Plenty harder jobs out there than teaching, many with more stress, less career security and all with far less time off. Don’t know why teachers seem to think they have it so bad? Have many tried working in other industries?

Only teacher I know has gone from complete surfing beginner to quite advanced in only a couple of years, the rest of us in our group who’d love to surf far more, just can’t compete with the amount of time he gets on the water!

just can’t compete with the amount of time he gets on the water!

Perhaps your surfing ability has been affected by the massive chip on your shoulder?

I handed in my notice.

There is no work life balance. 8am to 2200? Leads to burn out. My current school has far too much admin and the book marking is an explanation on how to improve to the next level after writing about the good things the student has done.

Will miss the good kids, football team I currently coach and the science club I run.

Excellent Ofsted lesson – which I’m chuffed. Letters from parents thanking me.

I won’t miss the political bull, too long hours, stupid leaders, everything under scrutiny, parents who can’t be bothered about their kids, ruined health and rubbish pay.

Most of all our kids and their education should not be used as some sort of political tool, they’re too important for that.

Funny. I am in during 1/2 terms and easter for at least 2 days each holiday teaching kids….. I do F all in summer hols though.

Plenty harder jobs out there than teaching, many with more stress, less career security and all with far less time off. Don’t know why teachers seem to think they have it so bad? Have many tried working in other industries?

Yes many have and many then leave teaching. If it was so easy we would be able to fill our posts or get people to apply for them even!!

Perhaps your surfing ability has been affected by the massive chip on your shoulder?

Haha, yes perhaps?

Yes many have and many then leave teaching. If it was so easy we would be able to fill our posts or get people to apply for them even!

I wasn’t implying that teaching was easy – far from it, just that there are many more professions out there with far longer hours, far more stress etc.

All careers have their down sides yet many teachers seem to genuinely believe that their job is the most demanding job in the world, and then whinge non stop about it despite the fairly obviously perks (compared to many in the private sector) of: a) reasonable levels of pay, b) great job security, c) descent pension provision, d) fantastic holiday entitlement, e) realistic expectations of career advancement.

I understand that teaching is a demanding job, made harder by paperwork and government interference but perhaps if teachers whinged less then maybe the profession of teaching might attract some better quality candidates to fill it’s vacant posts?

whinge non stop about it despite the fairly obviously perks (compared to many in the private sector) of: a) reasonable levels of pay, b) great job security, c) descent pension provision, d) fantastic holiday entitlement, e) realistic expectations of career advancement.

So why the massive shortages of teachers then?

So why the massive shortages of teachers then?

perhaps if teachers whinged less then maybe the profession of teaching might attract some better quality candidates to fill it’s vacant posts

There may be obvious perks, but having worked in the private sector and am now a teacher (at a pretty damn good school to work in), there are some bad points too. Ever had to explain to a parent who dotes on their child that the reason they have made no progress is because they are a lazy sod who doesn’t do homework?