I’m finding my full sus is to front happy (especially after a ride on a friends transition which felt planted). I’d like it to feel more stable and make it so I don’t have to lean so far forward to climb in the saddle. Before splashing loads on a new frame/bike I’m trying to tinker with the current setup to see if I can make it more stable (don’t use it enough to justify a new bike at the moment).

Frame is a morewood shova st which is listed as having 69deg HA, 72deg SA. It will take up to a 6″ fork, which is what I’m using (dtswiss exc150). Geo chart doesn’t indicate at what length fork the angles are measured at, a quick phone app check seems to suggest its currently at around 68deg. Presumably this means the BB height has come up and the seat angle relaxed a bit. Both of which if I understand it correctly will not be helping when climbing.

To start with as they are cheap I’ve ordered a 1deg offset bush set which should hopefully lower the BB a bit, sharpen the seat angle and bring my weight forward. If this works the next step would logically be to try adding an angleset (think Works components do one that fits 1 1/8th head tubes). Assuming a 1deg slackening again this could mean ending up with a 66deg head angle. Is that likely to be too slack?

Other than using offset shock bushes and an offset headset are there any other good ways of reducing front wheel lift? Only others I can think of are making sure the lower headset cup is as thin as possible and using a larger tyre on the back.

You can do a few things by spending very little money at all, try these:
Longer stem and/or lower the bars.
Push seat forward on rails.
Rotate bars forward a touch.

You want to move your COG forward, moving your saddle will make way more difference than those “upgrades”.

Have you tried moving your saddle forwards a tad, possibly (shock horror) try a longer or lower stem?
These should put your weight a bit further forwards, should help with the lifting.

Moving your saddle forward would help though of course it may make the reach too short so you’d need a longer stem and that’d get the fashion police in a tiz…

More sag on the fork would also help slightly or of course a shorter fork.

If you lower the BB, you’ll slacken the seat angle (well, usually).

Similarly a slacker head angle will relatively move your weight away from the front wheel towards the back one.

offset bushings slacken the seat angle I think?
Angleset will steepen it.

Move the saddle forwards.

Drop the handlebar height (either less spacers or a flipped stem or one angled down more).

Fit a longer stem.

Reduce the travel on the forks.

If you fit that bush to steepen the head angle, you’ll be raising the BB which might not help much with climbing stability.

Get a stronger core.

Thanks all. I missed all the obvious changes then :D!

Stem is already slammed, but bars are tilted back a bit so will try rotating those forward, this should allow a bit more reach for shuffling the saddle forward (the other issue with this frame is that its a medium and I’m 6’2″, should really be on a large).

I’m not keen on a longer stem as its 70mm already. Think I might have a spare 80mm laying around I could try though if other things don’t work.

Forks I’ve got a similar set with 20mm less travel which I can try as well as dropping the pressure in the current ones to get more sag.

If you lower the BB, you’ll slacken the seat angle (well, usually).

I thought the opposite was the case, lower the BB pulls the front down and steepens the seat angle?

offset bushings slacken the seat angle I think?

Do they? I thought slackening the head angle brings the bb height down which in turn steepens the seat angle (as the front of the bike comes forward).

Could have both of these wrong in my head. If only there was a nice online calculator that would show the effect of the various changes.

If you fit that bush to steepen the head angle, you’ll be raising the BB which might not help much with climbing stability.

I’m going to fit it to slacken the head angle so should get the reverse I hope.

Get a stronger core.

While I probably do need to do this anyway as my core strength isn’t great I’m unsure how it helps this problem?

What size chainring are you running?
A smaller chainring will make the front end lift less.

Well now…. that’s interesting!

On the basis that it’d induce pedal jack, brant?

You’re lowering the BB by reducing the effective length of the shock, aren’t you which will ‘compress’ the swingarm slightly which in turn will rotate the whole frame around the front axle, slackening the seat angle.

offset bushings slacken the seat angle I think?

Do they? I thought slackening the head angle brings the bb height down which in turn steepens the seat angle (as the front of the bike comes forward).

To put it plainly, your head tube and seat tube are connected by the top tube and down tube, so if you slacken the head angle (without using an angleset) you will also slacken the seat angle – it can’t do anything but.

To start with as they are cheap I’ve ordered a 1deg offset bush set which should hopefully lower the BB a bit, sharpen the seat angle and bring my weight forward

Offset bush will lower the BB, but will do the exact opposite of what you describe to the SA and weight.

EDIT (as nemesis said)

An Angleset will slacked the HA, drop the BB and steeped SA though, but might not help much as small changes really in the grand scheme of things.

Saddle forward, and stem lower/longer are your main options to move weight forwards but if you’ve already got the longest lowest stem you’re prepared to run and it fits you well with current setup in terms of reach then not much you can do except practise your ‘praying mantis’ climbing position.

Are you naturally a sit back and push into/forward the pedals climber or a move forward onto the nose and push down/back on the pedals climber?

^ hopefully you get what I mean there

Core strength is a good answer – lets you drop your wrists and lean further forward and then use your core to hold yourself in position rather than trying to hold all your body weight up through bent arms.

Move your saddle forward 1/2″. On steeper climbs move yourself forward too. On really steep climbs you should find yourself sat very much “on the rivet”.

Offset bushings will have the opposite effect to what you’re after – essentially you’ll make the bike feel like the rear sus is compressed a bit, so the seat angle will slacken and you’ll be more off the back. Angleset will have the effect of slightly lowering the front, but it’s fairly minimal. You end up with a longer front centre though which may help a bit.

On the basis that it’d induce pedal jack, brant

On the basis of it increasing anti-squat forces.

That’s what I meant 😉

What size chainring are you running?

34t at the moment though I’ve not not followed the 1x trend and still have a 26t granny. So using that more could help.

Ok understand what your all saying about the offset mounts now. I think I was visualising it in the wrong way and forgetting the unmovable link between the 2 bits of metal. The wrong choice then!

Are you naturally a sit back and push into/forward the pedals climber or a move forward onto the nose and push down/back on the pedals climber?

I think onto the nose normally. Certainly when it gets steeper on this setup I have to move forward and make like a praying mantis or it just pop wheelies permanently.

Core strength is a good answer – lets you drop your wrists and lean further forward and then use your core to hold yourself in position rather than trying to hold all your body weight up through bent arms.

That makes sense, this sounds similar to what I think I’m trying to do while seated climbing at the moment.

If you’re inclined to stand in the attack position, you would be amazed at the difference rolling those bars forward will make to control, climbing, pretty much everything. They’re only really going to cause problems if you’re a hang off the back and hope descender.

You mention you have a shorter fork handy. If this will fit it is quite possibly the easiest overall fix as it’s the root of the issue. If the geo quotes 69deg and you’re at 68, assuming no measure errors, a 130mm fork should put you back at about 69deg.

My Covert is very light in the front on steep climbs. I just adapted by not pulling on the handlebars when pushing he pedals – so develop core strength. It’s quite handly on steep technical climbs as it is easier to get the wheel up and over objects and maintaining what momentum you have, rather than riding into them and killing any momentum. I have dual position forks so can drop from 150mm travel to 120mm travel, and it is still quite front-end light even at 120mm (so much so I now don’t bother with using the feature), so a few mm adjustment on your saddle and handlebars wont make much of a difference.

brant – Member
A smaller chainring will make the front end lift less.

To go off on a tangient (in the time honoured stw tradition), is that the argument that the bike will ride differently in a 32:16 (for example) than a 44:22, because of the relative position of the chain to the pivot?

To go off on a tangient (in the time honoured stw tradition), is that the argument that the bike will ride differently in a 32:16 (for example) than a 44:22, because of the relative position of the chain to the pivot?

Yes

Thought so.

I also thought it had been roundly debunked?

cynic-al – Member
Thought so.
I also thought it had been roundly debunked?
POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Oh. Physics must be wrong then.

I’m struggling to see how it could be wrong too – the chainline on a single pivot is a fairly simple force diagram and as such, its position in relation to the pivot is pretty important.

If you’re inclined to stand in the attack position, you would be amazed at the difference rolling those bars forward will make to control, climbing, pretty much everything. They’re only really going to cause problems if you’re a hang off the back and hope descender.

I’ve been trying to get my weight further forward while in the attack position and have been struggling. Could be the bar position that’s making this difficult.

My Covert is very light in the front on steep climbs. I just adapted by not pulling on the handlebars when pushing he pedals – so develop core strength. It’s quite handly on steep technical climbs as it is easier to get the wheel up and over objects and maintaining what momentum you have, rather than riding into them and killing any momentum. I have dual position forks so can drop from 150mm travel to 120mm travel, and it is still quite front-end light even at 120mm (so much so I now don’t bother with using the feature), so a few mm adjustment on your saddle and handlebars wont make much of a difference.

Its a covert 27.5 I had a go on that felt so much better. My forks also reduce (not sure how much by and it is a lock down type so you loose the movement to an extent). The steering becomes very twitchy when they are locked down so I don’t often use it. The other none pulling technique does sound like what I’ve been doing.

The other fork will fit, think I’ll give that a go first as its probably the quickest change to make.

It’ll never be a bike that climbs well, especially since it’s two sizes too small for you.

Had the same problem on a 2008 giant reign. I moved seat forward on the rails and fitted a 2degree works headset problem was sorted.

Thumbs on top of the bars will help you pull on the bars and use your core instead of pulling up with thumbs underneath tge bar .

Working on improving your pedal technique could also help, pushing in smoother circles will reduce the power surge that can cause your climbing wheelies, by spreading the power out more over the whole pedal stroke.

Working on improving your pedal technique could also help, pushing in smoother circles will reduce the power surge that can cause your climbing wheelies, by spreading the power out more over the whole pedal stroke.

Sounds like me, I think this is a hangover having a few single speeds.

Thumbs on top of the bars will help you pull on the bars and use your core instead of pulling up with thumbs underneath tge bar .

Thanks, will give that a go.

It’ll never be a bike that climbs well, especially since it’s two sizes too small for you.

Suspect your probably right, just improving how it climbed would be a bonus though. Best plan really would be to get a bigger frame, I’m on the lookout for any large Hecklers, meta 5/6 or similar at a reasonable price. There seems to be quite a limited supply of large frames though (so many mediums!)

Had the same problem on a 2008 giant reign. I moved seat forward on the rails and fitted a 2degree works headset problem was sorted.

Good to know, thanks.

I’ve cancelled the bushings order for the minute as that’s clearly not going to help (other than if I used it to steepen the head angle and seat angle and then used a works head set to slacken just the head angle).

Will be implementing some of the suggestions above tonight for tomorrow’s ride and fitting the shorter forks.

6ft2in on a medium frame . The bike doesn’t fit end of thread .

😯

Im 6’5″ and its XL all the way. No way would I even consider a medium. Ever.

6ft2in on a medium frame . The bike doesn’t fit end of thread .

Its not the worse I’ve seen, friend who is a little taller than me once bought a small chameleon. It was so small he couldn’t turn without clipping his toes on the front wheel!

You are right though it is too small. Funds aren’t really there for a replacement at the moment though, especially given usage (hence thread to see if I can improve it). I can ride this all day without feeling any discomfort from the size as well.

Before this I had a large patriot (20″) which road really nicely. It was such a gate though that the top tube was dangerous. When I replaced it with this in 2007/8 I really wanted to avoid this again. Still should have bought the large morewood as they did do one bigger with improved standover!

I’ve also got a medium cotic and that has always felt fine. It is SS though which might help as typically I don’t pedal it sat down much.

Im 6’5″ and its XL all the way. No way would I even consider a medium. Ever.

6’2″ appears to be borderline for l/xl for a lot of brands. XL’s seem to come with huge head tubes a lot of the time which would put me off.

Well, I hope you get it working well and enjoy riding it 🙂

Holy thread hijack/ressurection!

brant – Member

cynic-al – Member
Thought so.
I also thought it had been roundly debunked?

Oh. Physics must be wrong then.[/quote]

nemesis – Member
I’m struggling to see how it could be wrong too – the chainline on a single pivot is a fairly simple force diagram and as such, its position in relation to the pivot is pretty important.

But the forces act through the BB and axle.

I still don’t see how riding a bike in say 32:16 will differ to riding it in 42:21. Can anyone explain?

someone with a better explanation than me will be along in a minute but think of it like a lever with the pedal on one end, the chainring/chain interface on the other and the BB as the fulcrum.