Did anyone watch it last night?

Wow, I was torn between the two sides (as was the Chief Exec) and totally agreed that I was equally in both camps.

Quite a balanced programme.

Looking forward to the green-laning episode.

I keep on missing them. Must remember to start using iplayer.

Well worth watching. Last nights- I wanted to dislike the ‘friends of the lakes’ yet I also found myself agreeing with them and where they are/were coming from.

Quite a tragic event in last nights but seeing the way the main contributor took off in his Gazelle(?) in one shot I 😯

Only saw the first half, but the missus filled me in on the dramatic ending.
Like you I was pulled both ways. I thought it was a telling scene where he confronted the two ‘friends of the whatsit’ campaigners – them wearing walking gear, and him in hi-viz jacket and rigger boots. A good illustration of the opposing goals – protecting a beautiful wild landscape against trying to keep a working community with jobs for local people.

On that scene- I felt he really didn’t do himself any favours at all. A complex character who was likeable in equal measure.

Sunday 21:00 BBC Four the next one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b016n129/broadcasts/upcoming

Very sad show.

Shame there wasn’t more support for the scheme. The board members who voted on it looked like they might not be exactly representative of the community as a whole.

I don’t seem to watch TV much anymore so I missed it

Did it mention “CORRUPTION”?

Having lived in the Lakes on and off for six years it’s pretty evident that it suffers from more than it’s fair share of corruption, and if you do a bit of searching on the web you will find that the National Park Authority ain’t exactly squeaky clean.

TBH, much as my sympathies were very much with the Honister guy / team, I didn’t think the “friends” got a very balanced look in with their arguments (which I have read elsewhere and still think are utter dailymailish bobbins).

What summed it up for me was when the Natural England “expert” pronounced that the earth that was being eroded had been there since the end of the last ice age, and Mark Weir pointed out that that bit of terrain had been cut 200 years ago (for mining) so it couldn’t have been.

The idea that freezing everything in aspic now somehow preserves “nature” is utter cr*p – the landscape, as with pretty much everywhere in these fair isles of ours is nowhere near natural, and certainly the land around Honister far from it.

I’m all for tranquility and it’s for sure one of the attractions in the lakes, but as was pointed out, there’s 200+ other peaks in the lakes – if one had a zipwire on it, those seeking tranquility could choose one of the other 199 to walk… I’m really surprised at the mixed verdict on here – I bet most of the objectors are the same people who object to mountain bikers (in the ‘wild’ and building trails / trail centres

There is a fella high up in LDNPA called Cartwright. You might care to look at his involvement in the Tiplady affair.

After the recent failure of the National Park to bully 30 (ish) farmers out of the way to create the Coniston to Foxfield cycleway across their land, this Cartwright made a statement in which he set out his priorities for the LDNPA……in his world that was to make money. He made no mention of preserving the National Park.

And here is me thinking that was their principle reason for being! Silly old me!

Perhaps Honister Slate Mine needs it’s Chief Exec to join the masons?

My (for) viewpoint was its job creation in an area that would welcome money/investment.

Erosion formed our landscape and continues to evolve our landscape. As you mentioned you can’t wrap the Lakes up and preserve it/freeze it in time.

The Peaks one will be interesting. I want to try green laning but we witnessed a largish group of riders on Sat whichwas a fair old racket.

Met Mark Weir after the OMM in 2008 when it got called off as my dad wanted to say thank you for looking after them all, interesting to hear his point of view on the way the organisers dealt with the OMM. Anyone notice the bit where he said “I’ve escaped death 4 times this year, but i hope that number can continue to decrease.” Just a shame that someone who lived life to the absolute full died so young.

Yes I remember his comment and I immediately thought ‘you’ve got 3 kids’!

here’s my 2 penneth:
He [Mark weir] seemed to be clinging on to the precedent set by the miners of an era before we knew any better.
As a comparison, just because we used to have Golly dolls on marmalade jars and called our coloured friends by a word we now class as offensive, doesn’t make it right to do the same now.

You cant do something potentially damaging just because you want to save a few jobs and create a bit of money. You certainly cannot do it just because you have been told you can’t or think you might not get the permission.

He knew full well that the Via Ferrata was illegal and potentially conservationally unsound and it was his flagrant disregard for the planning process and his own safety that made him appear like a know-it-all maverick with no respect for those who challenged his ideas.

You certainly cannot do it just because you have been told you can’t or think you might not get the permission.

He knew full well that the Via Ferrata was illegal and potentially conservationally unsound and it was his flagrant disregard for the planning process and his own safety that made him appear like a know-it-all maverick with no respect for those who challenged his ideas.

This is where I sat in the against camp. When it came up that he didn’t have permission for the Via Ferrata I thought ‘so if he gets the zipwire, what next? A shack/Cafe at the top springs up’?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-watching-the-honister-zip-wire-thing

The whole jobs v scenery question affects all the countryside, but is more acute in National Parks.
It’s very well protecting the landscape, although that same landscape has often been shaped by human activity in the first place, but there is a human cost to it.
If you favour scenery over jobs then you end up forcing out the young locals and replacing them with holiday homes and retired people, who want the scenery not the jobs.

Just think of dry stone walls; if you went to the National Parks people today with a proposal to build miles and miles of walls up and down the hilsides to develop it as a sheep rearing area you’ld probably be sent packing sharpish, yet those stone walls are part of the scenery that people value so highly.

And I think that equating a desire to keep the local economy going, or “just because you want to save a few jobs” as you put it, with racism is a bit over the top.

Well worth watching. Last nights- I wanted to dislike the ‘friends of the lakes’ yet I also found myself agreeing with them and where they are/were coming from.

Really? I thought they came across as selfish and smug, and were completely distorting the reality of the situation. Honister pass is not some unspoilt wilderness FFS.

I’d agree that the guy didn’t do himself too many favours at times though….

To quote myself from the other thread….. 🙂

It just annoys me that some people seem to think the Lake District should be kept exactly how they want it – which is a sort of twee middle class ramblers idyll – and this doesn’t fit into their vision.

Honister pass is not some unspoilt wilderness FFS.

nobody is saying that, not even the FOTLD! the fact is that there are sensitive and protected flora in the vacinity of the VF and sheep or no sheep, they need to be protected from further potential damage.

grum – we need people like the friends of the lakes. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes wrong however they are are necessary evil (hopefully not disingenuous? to say that).

nobody is saying that, not even the FOTLD!

They were going on about how tranquil it is there, right next to the mine, the big car park and the busy road. A lot of their argument wasn’t about protecting flora and fauna, but spoiling the ‘character’ of the area.

grum – we need people like the friends of the lakes. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes wrong however they are are necessary evil (hopefully not disingenuous? to say that).

Possibly so – like I say though, so much of the Lakes (and the FOTLD) seems to be geared towards the needs/wants of middle-class ramblers, and they don’t like anything that doesn’t fit in with their cosy image of how it should be.

the fact is that there are sensitive and protected flora in the vacinity of the VF and sheep or no sheep, they need to be protected from further potential damage.

I wonder how many walkers paths there are that have damaged sensitive flora and fauna in the Lakes? I just find it very hypocritical and selfish – there are thousands of paths all over the Lakes that could be seen as a massive eyesore, spoiling the ‘character’ of the ‘natural’ countryside, but that’s perfectly fine as long as it’s something they’re interested in, and fits with their view of how the countryside should be.

The LD isn’t just about expensive tea-rooms, Beatrix Potter and Wainwright – it’s meant to be there for all to enjoy.

seems to be geared towards the needs/wants of middle-class ramblers,

Grum – is every issue a class-thing with you?

Must go and watch the iplayer version – I have missed this twice (apart from snippets). I have mixed views on Honister and role of institutions such as FOTLD but having read some of the comments on STW I am glad that there are people like them still around and involved – if nothing else for balance.

Now let’s see if the program changes my pre-conceptions….?

Again I’m not a Rambler nor am I moneyed. However if it wasn’t for busy-bodies sticking their noses in what would happen?

I’d prefer them to ‘exist’ and ‘care’ as neglect/disinterest/apathy is far far worse.

Interesting start but plenty of hyperbole so far!!

They were going on about how tranquil it is there, right next to the mine, the big car park and the busy road. A lot of their argument wasn’t about protecting flora and fauna, but spoiling the ‘character’ of the area.

My point still stands, they weren’t saying the place is an unspoiled wilderness. there is a difference between unspoiled and tranquil and no one in their right mind would agree with the sentiment that Honister is unspoiled.

The “summit of Fleetwith Pike” argument could easily be a STW thread!!!

Mark used the term in the application, Friends quote it, he argues that is is 80-100 feet away (wow!!) and then the abuse starts!!

At least Eric Robson brings some balance views!

I got the impression that whoever was editing the programme got the irony of the FOTLD people standing on a meter-wide path, below the existing corroded old steel structure where the head of the zip wire was going, with a view over their shoulder down to the car park, shop and mine workings about 300m below them, making pronouncements about “the unspoilt tranquility of the area”.

Everything I’d heard up to that point in the media, and on forums, had given me the impression that Mark Weir was the villain of the piece in respect of Honister, but after watching the programme, my sympathies swung very much behind him and what he was trying to achieve.

That said, I’m generally very suspicious of groups that want to ‘preserve’ the countryside as if it can be frozen in time – the ENH group very much gave off that attitude, which seems so totally unrealistic both in geological terms and from the perspective of the impact that we humans have already had on our environment. I’m not at all in favour of unregulated development, but it seems the balance is far too much in favour of ‘preservation’ at the expense of a genuine need for people to be able to seek enjoyment and further their well-being beyond the cities.

making pronouncements about “the unspoilt tranquility of the area”.

Nobody mentions anything about it being unspoiled.

Really? I thought they came across as selfish and smug, and were completely distorting the reality of the situation. Honister pass is not some unspoilt wilderness FFS.

nail squarely on head.

read up on the authourised heritage discourse and see how it applies to those arrogant, self important, conservation nazis like the friends of the lakes and natural england.

those people make my piss boil.

Grum – is every issue a class-thing with you?

What makes you say that, I am as middle-class as they come. It’s just that there is a very particular twee nostalgic vision of what the LD should be, and some people seem to have a sense of entitlement about it being exactly how they want it. You might argue class is irrelevant, but fell-walking and climbing for instance used to be popular pursuits for people from all sorts of backgrounds – now they seem to be largely the haven of the well-off or middle class.

I don’t see that as a good thing, and wonder why? Bit of a tangent but for me it’s part of the same picture. We are trying to ‘preserve’ a version of the Lake District that never really existed, wasn’t ‘natural’ anyway, largely for the benefit of a relatively narrow but particularly vocal and influential group.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think they should build a cafe on top of Hellvellyn or anything, but I really don’t see how the zipwire would spoil the character of Honister.

Interesting start but plenty of hyperbole so far!!

Yeah it claimed that Fleetwith Pike is one of the highest mountains in the Lake District. Erm…..

Whilst being in favour of the zipwire at that particular location, I find the idea that the rest of the lakes can be described as “twee” a tad peculiar.

In my experience Cumbria feels wild and looks beautiful. The idea that this landscape can be turned into some kind of adventure theme park is quite revolting, IMHO.

Yes, a dry-stone wall and sheep-cropped fellside is not “natural” exactly, but neither are mountain-top cafes and lifts for those who are too fat to walk. I which “unnatural” option I prefer…

“You don’t know”, as Joni Mitchell once put it, “what you’ve got, ’til it’s gone”.

Maybe Grum is fighting the class war from within?

After all, alot of the ‘protesters’ come from respectable households don’t they?

Whats wrong, Daddies car was a 325 Touring and made you look too comfortable to the Social Party members? 😀

Well, just finished watching with a tear in my eye and a lump in my throat. I will forgive the BBC for the slight hyperbole because this turned out to be an excellent program IMHO that illustrated the key challenges of sustainable development. I will make sure that my son watches it for his Geography GCSE.

What an great case study – so finally balanced. My sympathies were definitely on the side of Mark Weir (RIP) but also could see the frustrations caused by his approach. Maybe a lesson for all of us. Yes, you need passion and drive (and occasional cheek and bravado) to achieve your goals but equally you have to understand that not-listening and ignoring the legal context can destroy your plans. A very difficult thing to achieve at times. I loved his idea of using the tunnels as an alternative route.

Did my preconceptions change? Not in terms of the need to have checks and balances but yes, to the zip wire. I liked the idea of the VF but was less keen on the zip. But on the basis of this program I would have changed my mind and voted in favour.

Terrible poignancy is Mark Weir’s Christmas speech.

Good for Bonnington – one of my childhood heros!!

Whilst being in favour of the zipwire at that particular location, I find the idea that the rest of the lakes can be described as “twee” a tad peculiar.

In my experience Cumbria feels wild and looks beautiful.

I dunno, spend any time in any of the towns/villages and I think you’ll see what I mean – though it’s been touristy as long as I have been going there, it’s changed quite a bit since I was a kid.

Much of the countryside is absolutely beautiful, I love the Lake District hills – I don’t know about wild though, there are still some places where you can feel like you’re ‘out there’ but you’re never far from civilisation really.

But like I said many people’s vision of the Lakes revolves around tea-rooms, Beatrix Potter and Wainwright, and they seem to get very upset about anything that might spoil that cosy image.

In my experience Cumbria feels wild and looks beautiful. The idea that this landscape can be turned into some kind of adventure theme park is quite revolting, IMHO.

Surely it’s not beyond the wit of all concerned to pursue an alternative course somewhere between ‘frozen in time’ on one side and ‘unregulated despoiling’ on the other.

While the Campaign for National Parks and Friends of the Lake District campaigned against the planning application Chris Bonington spoke out in favour of it. Two other Everest summiters also expressed support with Alan Hinkes tweeting that the Lake District should “be inclusive not exclusive n encompass all outdoor activities.” and calling on people not to be “outdoor elitist” and Leo Houlding one of the first people the owners were hoping to attract.

The 110-page report said that while other applications may have been more significant in terms of their scale, few had captured as much public interest, with 476 letters of support, a 11,500 strong petition in favour, and 255 letters opposed to the scheme.

Interesting that there were more letters in support, yet who did they end up listening to?

http://www.myoutdoors.co.uk/index.php/en/latest-news/526-honister-zipwire-plan-rejected-by-lake-district-national-park

Anyone know what the 3rd episode is? They really ought to do one on the New Forest which is constantly trying to ban all cycling, even on some roads, close roads, close car parks, and shut down the camp sites. You don’t know how lucky you are in the Lakes/Peaks!

The second program looks a little closer to home for STW