Following on from these threads

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/coil-conversion-for-the-pike#post-7886043

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fast-damper-tune-mini-review

I was thinking as to the reasons why both me and my dad think that the front end on my Reign (with it’s Pikes) is more confidence inspiring than his Mega 275 with Lyriks. Even when you ramp the low speed up on the Lyrik, my Pikes still give you this feeling that there is more of the wheel out in front of you (despite pretty much the same geometry).

Part of it is ride heigh, the FAST damper on mine keeps the fork riding higher, effectively slackening the bike and kicking the front wheel out. The other part of it is the offset, the 46mm offset simply puts the wheel further out in front of you and is therefore contributing to the confident feeling on steep technical terrain.

With the move over the past few years from linear coil equipped forks for all mountain use, to air forks that have been cured of their diving issues through either massive amounts of volume spacers or strong compression tunes – we have – for all intents and purposes moved to bikes with less travel. When my fork is supportive enough, I use the last third of travel a total of maybe 2-3 percent of hits on a ride. The last inch on anything but the worst line screw ups or cased landings and even then….I’d have to be really, really trying to use the last half inch. My coil 2009 Lyrik felt composed – but on squared edged hits it was more forgiving. So I suspect that it was more likely to use some of it’s last third of travel.

So if we want to stick with air forks, why are we not looking at upping travel for all disciplines (bar proper XC and maybe racing focused DH) by say, 20mm to compensate for these incredibly progressive setups. Design trail bike geometry around longer forks, kick the front wheel further out in front of the rider (kind of like using a longer offset, but doesn’t speed the steering up) and get back some of the comfort and grip that we lost when we moved over to air? Keep the forks acting the same, eg using their last third of travel very rarely but have a bit more give at the top end of the stroke.

As much as most of us like to think, not many of us come remotely close to being Aaron Gwin – not that all of us are slow – but for general trail riding and having fun….having a composed setup is about the feeling of being behind the front axle and having some midstroke support to push against. Not hard setups that allow us to skip over rough stuff at warp speed. The same can be said in the motorcycle world, Enduro suspension tunes differ quite substantially to MX tunes for similar reasons. Enduro riders don’t need as hard setups to hit braking bumps or rhythms at warp speed because they don’t hit them at the same speeds, if they ride them at all.

A small part of me thinks that the issues solved by plus sized tyres (comfort etc) could be better solved by moving to more travel.

I’m fine leaving the last inch for big stuff and screw ups, that’s what its there for, not for every little rock or root.

edit: and this doesn’t make the fork harsh at all.

I don’t see physically, how the forks can perform as well as coil did. More compression damping usually = spikier and progressive setups are always going to be harsher in the latter third of travel. Leaving the last inch is fine – but you can do that with hydraulic bottom out control. This ties in with years of experience on coil forks…my Pikes feel much more like my Lyriks did in the midstroke now, except I have effectively decreased the available travel – I think that they feel spikier.

You don’t see this obsession with progressive springs in most other forms off off road motor racing….eg motocross do you?? Or am I not up to date on moto any longer?

If some suspension engineer can’t explain to me how they’ve overcome physics or vastly improved suspension damping – instead of journalists telling me what I should think, then I’ll continue with my slightly insane ideas… 🙂

**** knows why I studied biology, I should have done motorsports engineering – I find it interesting.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/10/15/future-of-air-suspension-technology-in-motorcycle-forks

Is this the same spring system used on the new ohlins fork? With it’s main, secondary and negative air chambers?

If so, the system described in the above article is also the same system that is offered for the Pike by an MTB-News.De user by the name of AWK.

Tom_W1987 – Member

So if we want to stick with air forks, why are we not looking at upping travel for all disciplines (bar proper XC and maybe racing focused DH) by say, 20mm to compensate for these incredibly progressive setups. Design trail bike geometry around longer forks, kick the front wheel further out in front of the rider (kind of like using a longer offset, but doesn’t speed the steering up) and get back some of the comfort and grip that we lost when we moved over to air? Keep the forks acting the same, eg using their last third of travel very rarely but have a bit more give at the top end of the stroke.

Isn’t that exactly what’s been happening over the last few years? Bikes getting longer and slacker, trail bikes with 150mm+ forks, etc?

2 1/2 years on an Avalanche Pike and DHX5.0 air SSD shock and nothing has come close to feeling as good. Not cheap of course but I bought the fork and shock in the U.S, to save on shipping, then had them delivered direct to Avy. All-in I was £335 for the shock and £780 for the fork (including shipping and duty), which isn’t too bad really, and based on the amount of riding I do I would say they were great vfm.

Isn’t that exactly what’s been happening over the last few years? Bikes getting longer and slacker, trail bikes with 150mm+ forks, etc?

I’d also say trail/enduro bikes with 6″ or so of travel are better these days than some dh bikes with more travel from a few years back, also many dh’ers are using air shocks, so must be some benefits over coil. I had an Avy coil boxxer, My stock 150mm pike felt almost as good.

Just imagine how good they’d be with a spring in em 😯

One of the best bits about having 180mm out front on my big bike is that i can sit it low in the travel for more XC stuff an get a really really nice ride quality on small bumps / chatter, and yet still not crash into the bump stops on the odd bigger hit 😆

Max, you’re from a moto background aren’t you? I think Chainline has found himself on the same line of reasoning with his 180mm “downduro’d” 😆 geometron.

150mm forks on trail bikes and 170mm on enduro bikes isn’t uncommon now. My Spitfire has 160mm up front despite being a 140mm frame.

But are these set-ups incredibly progressive? The Lyrik has a larger negative spring than the Pike so it will sit deeper into its travel at the same air pressure.

This is the original Pike 35 vs the much maligned original Fox 34 (widely denounced for being way too linear):

Can’t read the force numbers, but the 34 does look more linear.

The issue with linear airsprings is that because bicycles are so light, breakaway force is much more noticeable in comparison to motocycles rocking the new three chamber air system. People are seemingly often running lots of tokens so they can lower the air pressure and get less initial breakaway force. The three chamber system might not prove popular with the majority of riders as it would be like moving to a dual position air spring, as you have to introduce another seal – and so fail the car park test for reasons not to dissimilar to the 34 – small bump compliance.

The 34 looks a bit odd though, like it’s soggy all the way through the travel. Almost as if the spring rate is actually lower.