Cos they’ll find something else to complain about. It’s not the actual complaint. It’s simply a convenient stick to beat people with and it’s through lack of understanding.

This all standards of driving are rubbish but you rarely hear car drivers moaning about all car drivers or demanding new test for drivers despite the crap driving we all experience every day. they target cyclist as they do one of the two cardinal sins – hold them up for a few minutes. Fly past them when stationary. this is what offends them and little can be done to change this

its a hsared us space and untill everyone realises this and acts accordingly we will get more of this
Car drivers who hate cycliss will not be changed by us having a new test

TurnerGuy – how about we prioritise this?
1. Get drivers behaving more safely and accepting of cyclists on the road.
2. Help cyclists be more considerate of drivers.

Or do you actually think 2 is more important?

no, but the thread was about road rage, which comes about because of a lack of 2 in many cases.

It comes about because of 1, in nearly all cases IME.

Fly past them when stationary. this is what offends them and little can be done to change this

maybe in London but we are talking about Surrey, and the recent press has all been about groups of cyclists clogging up the roads ‘cos they are riding in little peletons.

Thread title is about it getting worse, so I thought it might be OK to make suggestions about behavior that might stop it getting worse, or even reverse it.

I know it’s a term that may have been used for various different scenarios but I thought road rage was caused by impatient bell ends with anger management issues. Certainly seem to be a lot of RR incidents not involving cyclists.

It comes about because of 1, in nearly all cases IME

counter – It comes about because of 2, in nearly all cases IME

mcboo – Member
A new low for the angry car people of the Surrey Hills…..somewhere between the descent after Box and Headley we got buzzed by a nun.

Did you shout at her? Did you call her a “**** ****”?

Definitely a prime opportunity missed if you didnt.

I know it’s a term that may have been used for various different scenarios but I thought road rage was caused by impatient bell ends with anger management issues. Certainly seem to be a lot of RR incidents not involving cyclists

so I was suggesting things that might trigger their impatience less often?

giving them safe opportunities to overtake might help.

Another suggestion is to make everyone actually have to cycle on the roads before they drive. Worked for some Addison Lee taxi drivers a while ago, said they respected cyclists a lot more after doing a london cycling course.

Full of practical suggestions I see.

so therefore the clusters can be arranged so this situation doesn’t happen, the faster riders are always in the front clusters.

And now you are saying that the cyclists behind the car can’t control their bikes on the descents, but it is no fault of their own???

But that just doesn’t happen, especially if it’s two completely unconnected groups that just happen to be using the same stretch of road. Or a Sportive where a faster group has set off later and is catching a slower group. OK, on club runs you can sometimes get a degree of organisation going to say “faster riders up here, slower riders back there” but by and large what you see on the roads is two or three different groups, completely unrelated to each other.

At some point, they might be 3-abreast as a fast group singles out and passes a 2-abreast group. At some point there might be a “car-sized gap” between them as they close up but that’s rapidly coming down as the back group works out how to safely pass the front group. But most drivers won’t understand any of that.

make some suggestions about how to improve things then – go on – I dare you…

Compulsory retest every 5 years for all drivers
A driving test which includes a cycling module
A Government-backed education scheme, written by cyclists (as opposed to a bunch of **** like that recent Nice Way Code bollocks) on how to drive around cyclists.
Better communication from event organisers and much stricter licensing/permission rules for holding Sportives.
A limit on the max number of participants at any one event (regardless of Risk Assessment or the amount of car parking)
Proper justice for drivers who kill or injure on the road (or drive while banned/under the influence etc) – none of this 3 points and a fine and off you go again rubbish.

There we go, that’s a starter for 10.

I second crazy legs as minister for transport

Full of practical suggestions I see.

so that’s me and crazy-legs that have made suggestions – where are yours ?

But that just doesn’t happen,

but it also doesn’t happen that often that you get converging groups, you more often get a single group clogging up the road and just a small adjustment to riding behavior will mean that the drivers window of the next passing white van doesn’t open and some guy spits on the cyclists, as happened to Woking CC a few weeks ago.

but it also doesn’t happen that often that you get converging groups, you more often get a single group clogging up the road and just a small adjustment to riding behavior will mean that the drivers window of the next passing white van doesn’t open and some guy spits on the cyclists, as happened to Woking CC a few weeks ago.

It’s a really difficult area isn’t it?

On the one hand, they have a right to be there in much the same way that if you were held up by a slow moving tractor/trailer or a herd of cows being moved between fields (hey, I live in the country, these things happen so go with me) you wouldn’t say anything, you’d just accept it – frustrating but part of life. And neither the tractor nor the cows pay road tax!

On the other hand, you want minimum possible reasons or opportunities for confrontation so you want a considerate group of cyclists. Cyclists (and ramblers actually) are strange creatures – they should really be treated like a shoal of fish or flock of birds – one entity made up of many. When you scare a shoal of fish, most dart in one direction but you always get the stupid fish which decides to go the other way. Same with cyclists or ramblers – one will decide to move right instead of left.

Trying to control a group, especially a big one, especially one made up of riders of disparate abilities is extremely difficult. Signalling that you’re going to slow down, speed up, pull in, pull out, make a turn can take 500m of hand gestures and calling by which time the driver has already come alongside and shouted abuse.

There’s no one answer to it – yes I agree with you that some cyclists are total **** in much the same way that some drivers are but I also think that vulnerable road users (or indeed vulnerable people in general) should be given a little bit of extra leeway.

TurnerGuy – Member

but it also doesn’t happen that often that you get converging groups, you more often get a single group clogging up the road

they’re not clogging up the road, they’re using the road.

if i understand correctly, the problem being discussed here is that people don’t like slowing down a bit for 5 ****ing minutes while they’re behind some slower traffic.

they’re not clogging up the road, they’re using the road.

would you say the same if there were tons of tractors using the roads getting from field to field.

Or tons of sunday drivers all cruising around at 25mph and all driving nose to tail, so no way to overtake.

Anyway, that is what the local press call it, and peoples impressions, which is what counts.

If you’re really in a hurry and there’s a group of riders in front of you, hit the switch that turns your flashing blue lights and your siren on. They’ll pull over.

If you don’t have such a switch, too bad. You’ll just get to the garden centre a few minutes later than you’d ideally like. It’s not really the end of the world. The damage to your day caused by ranting is likely to be much worse than the actual consequences of the lateness.

TurnerGuy – Member

would you say the same if there were tons of tractors using the roads getting from field to field.

Or tons of sunday drivers all cruising around at 25mph and all driving nose to tail, so no way to overtake.

er, yes? because it’s the same thing. Have you seen the A64 on a sunday evening in late summer? – tractors and tourists all over the place. there’s no point getting angry about it, or calling for all tourists to be banned from the road between the hours of 7am-11pm.
“Those farmers need to pay some road tax, and earn some respect. They don’t even pay fuel tax. Bastards.”

see? – such grumpiness is just silly.

Anyway, that is what the local press call it, and peoples impressions, which is what counts.

i agree, and peoples’ impressions won’t be changed one iota by sending cyclists on ‘proficiency courses’.

Central London however is a nightmare of stressed out loonies.

I always found the drivers in central London far more aware than those in the suburbs, probably because there was a lot more going on around them and they were travelling at a slower pace.

see? – such grumpiness is just silly.

but it doesn’t matter that it is silly, it matters that it happens.

this all seems similar to situations like ramblers taking up the whole of the bridleway just because they can and not letting mtbers past, I bet their forums have similar discussions.

At the sailing club my wife goes to there was an older lady there the other night saying how they had just been buzzed by about 30 mountain bikers coming down a path – shouting ‘coming through’.

She was a bit miffed, but I tried to placate her by saying at least they weren’t road cyclists, ‘cos we all hate them. That placated her a bit.

I tried to placate her by saying at least they weren’t road cyclists, ‘cos we all hate them.

Aah, now I get it. You’re one of ‘them’, explains it.

this all seems similar to situations like ramblers taking up the whole of the bridleway just because they can and not letting mtbers past,

no this seems like ramblers walking down narrow singletrack (I believe you were talking about narrow twisty country roads) and riders behind hurling abuse at them for not jumping out of the way. I wouldn’t be that sort of rider and I reckon you would flame any rider who did that, so why are you making excuses for the drivers doing similar?

I am not making excuses for anyone, I am just saying that this is what happens, how to make it slightly less of a problem in the short term.

I only really thought about it when out with Woking CC for a road ride one morning and saw all the problems with cars trying to overtake and why they couldn’t, and then a few days later with a group on the riply road who seemed to keep moving themselves into the most awkward positions for cars to overtake as they could, and I thought – aha, that is why people get road rage.

Group road riding holds little interest for me, as does road riding where I only see any point in it if the trails are too trashed/muddy (done my share of muddy miles) or if I want to session some hills. Otherwise xc mtbing or my croix de fer is much more attractive.

I am just saying that this is what happens, how to make it slightly less of a problem in the short term.

A noble goal, but I think you have your priorities backwards, and we should be looking for long term solution, not short term placation of angry motorists that ultimately re-enforces the position that cyclists are a nuisance and pushes them further off the road (figuratively speaking of course!)

and then a few days later with a group on the riply road who seemed to keep moving themselves into the most awkward positions for cars to overtake as they could, and I thought – aha, that is why people get road rage.

or maybe they were attempting to take position to prevent what they thought would be a dangerous overtake?

Group road riding holds little interest for me, as does road riding where I only see any point in it if the trails are too trashed/muddy.

and there it is… people doing things you have no interest in, sounds like you’re having trouble empathising with something you don’t understand and trying to impose your own rules on them.

I’m not racist roadieist but…. 😉

I don’t know which roads specifically you’re talking about but in my experience most roads where you cannot safely overtake a group of cyclists are roads that probably have a maximum safe speed of 40ish, sometimes less, where as roads where higher speeds are safer are often bigger, wider with more opportunity to overtake.

Being that most club runs will be averaging 16-20mph, it’s amazing that such a small speed differential causes such a massive problem, even if you were ‘stuck’ behind them for 5 whole miles (highly unlikely) then it’s only going to add a few minutes onto your overall journey time.

Impatience is a growing problem in society and this “debate” so called just boils down to ” I don’t like to wait for cyclists when I’m in my car”.

Well diddums, suck it up buttercup. What you’re doing is no more important than my bike ride, peloton or not. Have a scone, put on radio 4 and wait a bloody minute.

or maybe they were attempting to take position to prevent what they thought would be a dangerous overtake?

nope, they were almost doing the opposite, as I commented at the time.

Well diddums, suck it up buttercup. What you’re doing is no more important than my bike ride, peloton or not. Have a scone, put on radio 4 and wait a bloody minute.

that attitude is not helpful though is it at trying to placate the reality of what is happening and trying to keep more cyclists out of accidents.

I just reckon that if a car came up behind a riding group that were actively and clearly trying to manage their sharing of the road, then the driver might be more tolerant of waiting. If they come up behind a group of cyclists leisurely coasting along with poor road sense and awareness then I would guess that they are more likely to start to get the ‘rage’.

And I get that but it’s not the responsibility of cyclists to manage people with anger issues is it? If an accident or road rage incident transpires because of a car driver we have laws for that which we ought to enforce. Only in a car is it acceptable for someone to say and often do things that they would never, ever do outside of the car and they need to understand that it’s just not acceptable. The consequence of poor cycling is mostly mild annoyance, I don’t need to remind you of the potentially fatal consequences of poor driving. If someone is walking slowly ahead of you on the pavement you don’t call them a c+++, give them the finger and shout at them as you walk past do you? If you did you should be in prison or therapy.

If someone is walking slowly ahead of you on the pavement you don’t call them a c+++, give them the finger and shout at them as you walk past

This is a very good point. Although I don’t live in London. It may happen there. 🙂

This is a very good point. Although I don’t live in London. It may happen there

I did have a go at someone once – I was reading my metro as I walked over millenium bridge and the c+++ overtook me and then cut right back in and slowed down so that I walked into his heels. The bridge wasn’t crowded so there was no excuse.

edit – I think I actually just used the t+++ word.

I think he was off to his day job as a quant…

And I get that but it’s not the responsibility of cyclists to manage people with anger issues is it? If an accident or road rage incident transpires because of a car driver we have laws for that which we ought to enforce.

it is too late then though, the guy has been hit. Obviously penalties should be higher for the driver, which will hopefully feed back into driving practices (strict liability…).

It all comes down to basic behavioural issues; in the UK, for far, far too long, drivers have been allowed, perhaps even encouraged to believe that they can do what they want and that all other road users are second class.

The penalties for causing death and/or serious injury have been shown to be a farce, to the extent that the best way to kill someone is to knock them down with a car.

A trip to Northern Europe with a bike or even as a pedestrian is an eye opener; cars will stop for you. Here, as soon as you get out of a car, you don’t count, you’re not important, you can wait, you can get out of the way.

Add these attitudes to the stupids of Surrey; unfortunately it’s only a matter of time before the first road rage incident leaves someone dead, and the driver will get off with some minor punishment.

My 2p’s worth as a limited experience road rider .
Drivers feel like they are moving at walking speed at speeds of below 25mph ( ish ) . Modern cars are so refined 21 – 23mph is near silent and sedate experience . On a road bike 22mph feels quick and proper fast.
There is also a chance that you have held up 10 cars . Ok each one might have only taken 20 secs to overtake , but the one on the end of the queue has been waiting for 3 mins . I know his journey to soft play with a screaming devil child is more important than my sunday jolly, and in dropping off the spawn of satan he is being denied a 2 hr sesh on GTA5 in his pants. He has had to get dressed and leave the flat. He resents everyone on the road .alot.
The cyclists gets the brunt of this as he is a obviously a gayer in Lycra who cant afford a Vauxhall Astra.

Also riding in small groups of 4 does make it dangerous . There are alot of ‘follow through’ overtakers whose tiny minds cannot comprehend the fact that just because the first car has an opportunity to overtake, this does not mean that they can safely do the same move. First car overtakes safely and drops into gap.
Second car follows and there is no gap, and now there is an angry man in a tracksuit with a devil child screaming in the back coming straight at him , travelling at 50 in a 30 because hes got to get home in time to get to the pub to see his mates.
Second car turns steering wheel left in desperate ‘I hope they dont damage my car too much and if I hold the wheel really tight my car gets narrower and we can all fit in a 12ft gap’ style of overtake manoever.

Whats the answer ?
Claw hammer to the head whilst they sleep ?
Education to the vulnerability of other road users, and the damage inflicted by 1000kgs of steel ?
Stiffer penalties ? ha ha ha ha . I loose count of the munber of ” ‘eyes down’ Im on my Facebook on my smart phone” drivers i see every day.
More Traffic police ?
Real penalties eg £5k fines and 5 year driving bans for accidents involving injuries to other soft targets?
Tv ad campaign ‘Always use the green cross code’ . Worked in the 80’s

I dont really know tbh. There are 2000 miles of roads in Surrey , Im sure the local residents can find some with less cyclists on to drive around in their ego chariots on a weekend.