can someone take a diary note for us to do this topic again next year? in fact, lets book in the next few editions now...
Bike Forum
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Support the Innerleithen Uplift
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Posted 1 year ago #
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>So here's the structure and the justification for a large value capital project<
Bollocks - Laggan is miniscule compared to what's being proposed here and, more importantly, the revenue that will be required to run and maintain it. Multiply Laggan by 50 to 100 and thats the kind of £capital you are talking about.
You can argue til your blue in the face about additionality but:
a.) I dont believe the public sector want to touch this
b.) There is no mechanism for FCS etc to recover their costs
c.) There isn't currently any money in the system to help fund thisPosted 1 year ago # -
"Multiply Laggan by 50 to 100"
Er, no.
Posted 1 year ago # -
go on then, how much would it cost? remember to show your workings.
Posted 1 year ago # -
My working? I am not a chairliftist. Here is someone else's
"A joint venture between Scottish Enterprise, Scottish Borders Council (SBC) and Forestry Commission Scotland, found it needs £5 million of public sector backing and another £5 million from private enterprise."
Posted 1 year ago # -
Laggan cost under half a millionish, the proposed development at Innerleithan will be 50 times that easily. Look at the scale of it.
Chairlift, new roads, infrastructure etc etc. No one has done any real costings that I have seen but 25 million does no seem too far off to me. its certainly in multiple millions not hundreds of thousands
30 km of new trails. thats far more than at laggan new forestry roads, new access roads, new carpark, vistor centres and cafe etc etc.
where are the millions in funding going to come from? Not from the public purse thats for sure
Edit - crossed posts - where did you get those figures from?
Posted 1 year ago # -
£10m? So multiply Laggan by 40 then. I'd rather we had 40 Laggans...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Interestingly enough a quick google finds Heather Bash himself quoting "£12 million in today's money", which is 47 times the initial setup cost of Laggan. I do like it when people argue with themselves
"where are the millions in funding going to come from? Not from the public purse thats for sure"
And why not exactly? "Millions" is not a big number in the grand scheme of things, even now, and there's a strong economic case for it. Laggan as has been demonstrated paid for itself in full in under a
year, in local benefits alone. Of course, that was a smaller spend but then it also had a smaller expected return. Now I say "expected return", as in, not the mad fantasies that some throw around for the chairlift but still a substantial number. Laggan's £280000 locally is based on only 15000 visitors per annum after all, Innerleithen from the figures I've seen draws around 25000 per annum currently.Understand, I'm not saying this is going to happen, I still don't consider it likely at all myself but the droning of "commercially viable" is frankly just as idiotic as the "7% of people ride mountain bikes" claims. The 7 Stanes aren't commercially viable, but they're still a colossal success in financial terms.
And yes, I'd rather we had 40 laggans too. But then, I'd rather we had 24 Laggans than one Glentress Peel Visitor Centre. And I know it's a hackneyed argument, but that alone demonstrates how these things get funded. £5 million from FC Scotland as I recall, £750K from scottish enterprire, £250K from Sports Scotland. No european funding at all. And most of the arguments that people think prove the chairlift is a pipedream would apply exactly the same to the visitor's centre, were they correct. And yet it moves.
Posted 1 year ago # -
tj, stop all that negative shite, it will happen, downhilling is a fast growing sport and people dont want to travel as far north as fort bill plus the fact we need a new wc course, it will happen, maybe 5-10 years but it will.
Posted 1 year ago # -
PS I think "X number of Laggans" should be the standard accounting term for any mountain biking project. "Nevis Red? Fantastic, and only .8 Laggans to boot"
Posted 1 year ago # -
shagmeister it has precisely zero chance - thats why nothing has happened the last 3 yrs.
a chairlift is pie in teh sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all.
You can have a DH development at Innerleithan without the chairlift.
Think how good a vehicle uplift could be done with a million pounds? Nice shiney vehicles and drivers paid for years.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Let's not fall out over £750K.
And why not exactly? "Millions" is not a big number in the grand scheme of things, even now, and there's a strong economic case for it. Laggan as has been demonstrated paid for itself in full in under a
year, in local benefits alone
I'm not sure Laggan experience is directly transferable. How much does it cost to ride at Laggan? Paid and free attractions are very different beasts.Posted 1 year ago # -
"a
chairliftmulti million pound visitors centre is pie in teh sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all."See? It's easy, this being argumentative thing.
Though, I have to say your other point is the most compelling argument there is against the chairlift concept, and for myself I see no counterargument whatsover. Trail redevelopment and polished uplift, no cattle trucks, for people to put their carbon fibre ego chariots in without worrying if a 45 lb DH bike will get thrown on top, and all pitched to XC riders. Even £1 million could do amazing things.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Northwind
First things first - visitor numbers are invariably >>>>>>>>>> inflated bollocks = vested interest.
Laggan: low impact / low risk /low capital expenditure / good story / nice project = nobody gets hurt.
Chairlift = very high risk / £10m almost certainly waaaay under projected = Funicular MK2 IMHO. Go figure...
Posted 1 year ago # -
PS I think "X number of Laggans" should be the standard accounting term for any mountain biking project. "Nevis Red? Fantastic, and only .8 Laggans to boot"
Only 0.8 if you completely ignore any of the other investment made at Nevis Range (I have no workings, just a guess)?Inners chairlift has been on the go for how long? Had attention from SE etc for 5 years(?) and nothing, even when there was money swilling around. Nevermind that the land manager doesn't want it:
"we have no plans, nor are we able, to create more world-class facilities" Mike Russell MSP, Sunday Herald, 04/10/2008Posted 1 year ago # -
for a million quid the forest road could be a tarred dual public road then we could use our own cars
seriously though it would be great to have it esp for young talented riders as a training base,were better at downhill then football in this country!,but it seems unlikely due to costs...but good on folk who want to campain and rally support for it,
a granny ring only costs £22 in the meantime and you can cycle up almost anywhere for free, Posted 1 year ago # -
Yup Proteus, that's .8 Laggans due to pre-existing bike-equipped gondola and access road, all it needed was the trail. The full nevis range project is I imagine several megaLaggans. Which, I suppose, also kicks it into "It will never be built, it makes no sense, there is no case for it" even though it actually exists.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"a multi million pound visitors centre is pie in the sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all."
No it doesn't. At least not the way that project appears to have been "managed". Massively overbudget, long overdue.
Posted 1 year ago # -
And yet it moves.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Which, I suppose, also kicks it into "It will never be built, it makes no sense, there is no case for it" even though it actually exists
are you aware of skiing, snowboarding & tourists*?* who like a view and a cup of tea/scone. the former of which doesn't exist unless you built a huge 'lift right to the top of Minch Moor. The latter can probaby be served in your £5m tea shoppe.
Posted 1 year ago # -
And yet it moves.
LOL!Posted 1 year ago # -
Proteus, Nevis range posts a profit some years, a loss other years, but never enough to justify the capital outlay of the project, and was entirely dependant on the public purse to be built- sound familiar at all?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Joking aside - rather sick of this now / like a stuck record.
Move on, back projects that play to our strengths > those that deliver more bang for our £
Posted 1 year ago # -
Night. I hope your dreams are filled with white elephants.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hmm, elephant uplift. I'd pay for that.
If we're wrapping it up, all I can say is yes it's a daft idea, yes it's too much money, but if you look around you you'll find any number of daft ideas that cost too much money that have been huge successes, and for which the exact same objections would apply. I don't disagree at all with the logic but the fact is, these projects do happen. Funicular railways, the entire nevis range project (commissioned during a recession at vast cost), the 7 Stanes themselves (£2 million of public money there), and who knows how many others that you could have shot down for exactly the same reasons. So you take a step back and wonder what's wrong with the picture since your completely logical argument doesn't actually seem to transfer into the real world too well. Some of this stuff just doesn't make sense, is the bottom line, and demanding that it should doesn't work.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thinking about this rationally and living locally and the fact that Ive never been to Morzine , Whistler , Moab or Mackenzie. But I have done Glentress and Innerleithen and being a chubby almost 40 year old surely half the fun Is the torturous climb , I support the idea as It might bring people who spend cash locally and bolster the economony. If I was an Investor the figures dont add up so I wouldn't touch It with a shitty stick.
Posted 1 year ago # -
<too late for an edit- the funicular obviously isn't a huge success, very careless posting, but proves beyond any doubt that a project doesn't have to make sense to go ahead>
Posted 1 year ago # -
What gets me is the current uplift coaches Drive up from Durham every weekend and don't offer me a lift!
I ride a mixture of XC and DH, probably visiting the Tweed valley 4 or 5 times a year with 1 or two of those being overnight stays. Would a chairlift make me go to innerleithen more often? Almost certainly. Would it attract more leisure visitors - probably not. It's hard as the capital costs for the project have undoubtedly increased just as the investors have dried up..
Posted 1 year ago # -
a project doesn't have to make sense to go ahead
I agree, if the coffers are full and the good times look like they'll just keep on rollin'. Edinburgh trams anyone?
However, in this economic climate where the government are canning projects to build SCHOOLS, I doub't you'll find anyone except the enthusiastic minority supporting this. The public sector won't touch it with a barge pole and the private sector have had ample opportunity to get involved and haven't.
Its all about priorities and this project had its chance during the MTB "boom" earlier in the decade. Nobody did anything about it then so they sure as hell aren't going to do anything about it now i'm afraid.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Why not put a lift system somewhere that is epic to get upto?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I dont think it really matters where it is, the cost vs benefit would be prohibitive.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It surprises me that people can even afford a dh bike these days never mind £25+ for lift passes.
I have a pretty reasonable income for a 2 adult + 2 child family with a nice little semi house. I havent got a chance in hell of affording a proper dh bike and all the associated costs involved these days.
I have actually pretty much given up Mountain Biking and taken up football again because i couldnt afford to keep up with biking. Football has cost me about £3-400 for last year including all the after match pints and socialising. I bought a set of boots and shin guards and, well thats it. Biking was costing me 5 times that amount in travel expenses and equipment.
Personally i would expect DH and to a lesser extent all biking to take a big hit over the next few years in participants. All those parents who in the past have funded little johnnies fun sport will be struggling to keep up. I know if my son even mentions the sport i will be sticking my fingers in my ears and ignoring him.
Posted 1 year ago # -
You have two kids and a house. Most Downhillers don't I suspect.
Posted 1 year ago # -
2 kids, two houses, an ex. and 3 DH bikes here!
oh.. and I play football too.. but I've never spent any money on it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
2 kids 4 houses 2 dh bikes, 2 xc bikes, and loads of other bikes, I spend loads on uplifts..
Posted 1 year ago #
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