Hello Everyone,

We are trying to set up a new trail in the borders where a large scale windfarm is going to be located, and as such a large amount of money is going to be made available to the local communitys affected. We are located right in the middle of the 7 stanes and we want to approach the Forestry Commission for their backing along with the Local councils. Has anyone had any experience with any local councils or the F.C.?

Early stages at moment but the support locally is growing the transport links are good M74 2 mins away.(Can be seen from the motorway.)

Any help greatly appreciated, as we hope to open the trails up to ALL levels.

Many Thanks

Badger

Good luck.

The FC's official position is "no new trails" (on their land that is)

Where exactly are you and what land do you have in mind?

The FC's official position is "no new trails" (on their land that is)

Is it? I wasn't aware of that. We're certainly facing that position in N Yorks area but I wasn't aware it was national policy.

OP – I'd suggest you contact whoever is in charge of recreation within the FC region that your site lies within and/or the beat forester. Just call the local FC office to find them or on the www. It might be worth contacting Andy Hopkins (IIRC) the guy co-ordinating all the seven stanes for FC (I may have his name wrong but he's interviewed in the latest / recent MBR).

Karl Bartlett at IMBA might be worth contacting as well. He is current Chairman but also FC employee and previously involved in Seven Stanes.

Ian Warby is always a helpful bloke at CTC.

You may have a lot of convincing to do, despite it seeming very simple, straightforward and a brilliant idea to you. Good luck and hang in there.

Finally;

on their land that is

– no it bluddy isn't ;-P It's almost all Crown Estate, therefore the Nations and so ours. FC / FE are the quango and managers appointed by government to manage that estate on our behalf.

Don't.Get. Me. Started.

😎

>Is it? I wasn't aware of that<

Yes it is in Scotland – that is where the OP is referring to

>Don't.Get. Me. Started.<

Touche pal and I certainly don't need any lessons from you or anyone else on here as to whose land it is

Can't actually help, but we will shortly be in the same position with the new Griffin Forest wind farm about to be started, so would be very interested in following your progress.

I assume that the FC attitude is down to the potential liability of people hurting themselves and trying to claim? If so there must be some way round this or Laggan, Stanes etc would not be able to operate. Surely if they just allow the land to be used by a trail developer, or just hack clearings so people can do what they will, they would not be liable?

Hello Again

Sorry about that had gone to lunch?????

Its F.C. Land,

Also where the windfarm is being located is on F.C. land for which the F.C. are being paid very well for!!

The location is off the M74 Juntion 12 Crawford/Abington and the area of land concerned in all this known is as "Little Clyde"

Badger

At the very least contact the beat forester, he'll / she'll be the person who can make or break any project. Get that person onboard and you'll be halfway there, if you don't you're going to find it very difficult.

Listen to Cheeky Monkey, his experience may be south of the border, but it is very extensive.

Touche pal and I certainly don't need any lessons from you or anyone else on here as to whose land it is

That was a bit harsh, some people on here actually do know what they're talking about.

Touche pal and I certainly don't need any lessons from you or anyone else on here as to whose land it is

Blimey, are you as p1ssed off as you sound? There was a smiley there fella.

Hey ho 😎

I assume that the FC attitude is down to the potential liability of people hurting themselves and trying to claim? If so there must be some way round this or Laggan, Stanes etc would not be able to operate. Surely if they just allow the land to be used by a trail developer, or just hack clearings so people can do what they will, they would not be liable?

TBH (and there's been a thread about this a little while ago) no-one quite seems to know exactly why FE/FC are taking the position they are regarding development of trails. There's a lot of speculation.

Liability (or perception of it) and H&S seem to be big things to them. They seem to be running scared of CDM implications (which baffles me). I suspect one of the biggest things is money (as always) I think they're realising modern trails take quite a lot of inspection and subsequent maintenance. If they don't do this then I think liability claims against them are much easier to pursue.

Inspection and maintenance all takes cash and none was provided for this sort of work in most of the funding that was initially provided to build them. Now they're trying to work out how, several years in, to run and manage trail centres with the quite different user group than your typical MTBer. Certainly in Yorkshire we've been told, no more time, cash, people available to do the inspections that they consider to be required, hence no new development.

Like I said, dunno really, the above is a mish-mash of fact, experience and conjecture 😎

You can email me (in profile) if you want to know more from a SingletrAction / Yorkshire perspective.

All the very best with that one…don't want to be in your shoes but give it your best and let us know how you get on!

Just to add to what Cheeky says above, my experience (albeit at the opposite end of the country) is that the FC are generally pretty good to work with – albeit they sometimes seem to operate to their own standards of communication and timescales.

Liability will inevitably come up at some point as they self-insure, i.e. they can't just palm it off on to a third party if someone decides to sue them, and if they were ultimately on the wrong end of a successful lawsuit they would have to foot the bill. This may mean you can't build what you want to build; then again it may never be an issue. In Bristol we're making low-impact, handbuilt XC trails without any woodwork or particularly gnarly features, and so far we seem to have been left to our own devices. There are new policies coming in which seem to be adding an extra layer of formality, so be prepared to jump through quite a few hoops.

As far as landowners in general go, my experience is that they are one of the better ones to work with. If your local council has a recreation officer (or even someone employed specifically to promote cycling) they would be a good person to contact too, along with CTC.

Maybe if you play it as a local trail for local people, rather than an eighth Stane, then things are more likely to happen. I suspect the biggest challenge you will face is showing it's needed, in light of all the other off-road cycling facilities already in the Borders.

>Blimey, are you as p1ssed off as you sound?<

Yup, at least I am where Forestry Commission Scotland is concerned. More particularly certain members of their Management Board…

My humblest apologies for the rush of blood to the head there CM.

The "no more trails" edict came from the Board of FCS – they got the former Environment Minister Michael Russell to sign up to this and used it to bury another community set up not too dissimilar to the one the OP is proposing. Roseanna Cunningham is merely continuing in the same vein – Environment Ministers tend to have bigger fish to fry…

Of course they can and do change their minds but unless the aforementioned Board has undergone a recent sea change in attitude (and personnel)the only way you are going to get anything like this through is by signing an onerus commercial lease – one which satisfies all FCS maintenance and H&S requirements.

At least in theory…

Be warned – cash is not the issue here and this is most certainly all way above Hopkins, Bartlett et al. In short you really could waste a lot of time on this (read years jumping the various hurdles they can place in your way in the name of progress)

Bottom line: Unless that location can be seen to augment rather than detract from the 7S you havent a snowballs…

Just had a thought – would people pay the equivalent of say a rod license in fishing – like £15 a year from the Post office to ride at FC sites?

FC pocket the money towards Risk/Public liability insurance.

Probably wouldnt work – just an idea….

Some light reading to help you on your way: http://www.carronvalley.org.uk/

Badger9913 – Member
Hello Everyone,

We are trying to set up a new trail in the borders where a large scale windfarm is going to be located, and as such a large amount of money is going to be made available to the local communitys affected. We are located right in the middle of the 7 stanes and we want to approach the Forestry Commission for their backing along with the Local councils. Has anyone had any experience with any local councils or the F.C.?

badger is that area in Strathclyde or within the new D&G + Borders region?

1st approach and join the local community council, befriend local councilors and MSP. If you can get them on board you can then put a proposal to and become "partners" with FC and whoever the company building the windfarm is. Try and get the windfarm company to agree something like a 5yr funding plan for trails.
What will the scheme bring to the area re tourism, other spin offs?

Can your routes/trails be joined up with Ae 😆
Be great to get a long distance trail.

Can give you a couple of names(if in D&G/Borders), but not public, need an e-mail addy.

And just to add to what has been said above there will be no more "new" trails being built. Got that from a v-good/reliable source 😉
The bill for the new centre at GT is doing a Holyrood 👿 although the trail people at GT seem to be pretty "creative" with "new" stuff appearing all the time.

Liability (or perception of it) and H&S seem to be big things to them. They seem to be running scared of CDM implications (which baffles me).

Quite simple really. A lot of the people building and "designing" trails everywhere, not just Stanes, have no qualifications for doing so. It was only just recently that they became aware of CDM and the implications and are still learning.(possibly as the result of workplace accidents!!)

Karl Bartlett at IMBA might be worth contacting as well. He is current Chairman but also FC employee and previously involved in Seven Stanes.

Karl was a mere Forest Ranger at Mabie when F&M kicked off. There was some very small (by comparison to Coed y Brenin at the time)plans to upgrade Mabie and to set up a short red route at Dalbeattie. Then along came F&M and the local Enterprise agency, tourist boards and the other parties got together to find a way to regenerate the area(D&G)post F&M.
They came up with the plan that went on to become 7Stanes, asking for £2mil euro money, expecting to get £1mil, but got the lot!!!!
Pete Laing and GT got in on the plan and originally helped out with the D&G stuff until a project manager was appointed.
That first project manager was Karl for D&G. Pete headed up the GT/Inners side.

So there you have it.

Be patient. If it does work it will take lots of time, effort and thorough planning. Be prepared for the horse riders, walkers, bird, butterfly and plant watchers to all have their say. the more interested parties you can muster the better tho.

As also said above about liability. you may/will never hear about the cases where the FC are being sued but they do exist 🙄
FC tend to win most but it is all kept hush, hush.
There have been some very nasty accidents over the past yr or so and with some of these people being self employed and others kids being "led" there is probably some ambulance chaser/no win no fee type stuff going on 😉 🙄

Quite simple really. A lot of the people building and "designing" trails everywhere, not just Stanes, have no qualifications for doing so. It was only just recently that they became aware of CDM and the implications and are still learning.(possibly as the result of workplace accidents!!)

Hmmmm.

CDM regs apply to all operations, including their forestry stuff and FC have been building things for a long time. Only just aware – I'm sceptical. But even so what are they really "aware" of and why is it of such great concern?

Under the Regs you have to be competent (which is subtely but importantly different to "qualified"). Experience and track record are key to demonstrating competence. I think a large number of volunteers are capable of easily demonstrating both.

Besides that we're designing and building MTB trails, not road bridges, highways, nuclear reactors or the like. And as for liability and prosecution (and I've seen a bit of thrust on this from, IIRC, Colin Palmer) it's about time it was established MTB is an activity where riders accept a level of inherent risk (much as has been established in climbing). It is not to avoid responsibilty for sh1tely designed trails but it is to ensure that any numpty who rides outside their ability and safety zone who then comes a cropper cannot immediately hold liable the landowner / manager.

Hey ho, rant-tastic 😎

Hello Guys

Many Thanks for all your comments,we will still try and push ahead just for the reason that the local communty have a large pot of cash that can be used over a 25 year period and that FC are also making money out of this due to the turbines that are going to be located on their land ££££.

We are going to set up a group to apply for funds (Charitable status)and approach local councillars and our MSP/MP for support, and hopefully pull something off.

I will keep you informed as to developments and with a bit of lubrication we can get the ball rolling>
Happy Days
Badger 😆 😆

> We are going to set up a group to apply for funds (Charitable status)and approach local councillars and our MSP/MP for support, and hopefully pull something off.<

That's all relatively easy but my advice before you do any of that would be to:

1. Follow Dougals suggestion above (I think you'll be horrified by what you see to be frank)
2. Establish if FCS are even open to the idea of discussing the possibility of leasing this land (see my earlier comments as to why they might not) If you do as suggested in 1 then the person you need to write to will become immediately apparent (and no it's not any of those mentioned already)
3. Ask FCS to write to you confirming EXACTLY what their criteria for leasing the land will be

Heather,

Great stuff all this will do and no doubt ruffle a few feathers on the way>

But our area will be devastated with the windfarm and i can hardly see them knocking back trails when the biggest windfarm in europe is going to be built on our door step.

But i agree with waht you are saying and will take heed but not give up hope that the community gets its wish, and everyone can enjoy.

Badger 8)

Not all forestry commision land is FC. Some may be private and managed by the FC.
Expect 2-3 years for permission, setbacks, re applications for funding, re appling for different funding should plans change.

You could try working alongside a local access forum. They have retired people working for them, it can be pretty much a full time job just doing the admin. My folks have been working for three years on a long distance footpath. It already exists to some extent. But to market it and link it up require all sorts of guff. They have been refused access for one section. A reroute requires a new 16 page form to be filled in and another consultation document produced. and another funding app. they cant use the original one….plans changed see?!

But

I also would not get too excited about another "stanes" project. I have a FC chum who admits that the seven stanes created a bit of a monster for the FC that they can almost cope with at the moment but any more would start causing them problems. He doesn't reckon there will be any new trails for a long time yet and we'll have to take what wur gied.

Good luck.

Well this is most definately on 'FC land' so that's a non debate…

I'd double the 2-3 years 🙁

The biggest Windfarm in Europe (and scheduled to get even bigger) is Whitelees – some 30 miles up the road from you. Great things were forecast to happen on that site for mtb and none came to fruition. It would be well worth contacting whatever community group are on the scene there. Basically they have a big fancy vistor centre which costs millions to build and god knows how many 100's of km's of 6m wide roads. I would question if any real tangible community benefit has come out of all of it…

For the reasons already outlined by cbike I really can't see FCS adopting an '8th Stane.' Nor can I see them making it too easy for a third party operation to sandwich themselves above Ae for example and at a location which looks easier to access from the South and very much easier to access from the North (Glasgow plumps up Ae's visitor stat's quite heavily iirc.)

I know there may be a honeypot effect but your site would be outwith their direct management control and they really don't like that at all.

Someone mentioned GT's spiralling costs. The visitor centre project is currently running at a fairly staggering £9m – they need big visitor numbers to continue the good news story.

Also, no disrespect to CM etc but the English scene isn't really relevant because success is largely dependant on local politics and the power of a small handful of individuals within FCS Management Board. FCS don't fire senior managers – the same guys are still there in the wake of the CVDG debacle.

I'd seriously urge you to read the link above because it's going to save you at least one years grief. Then decide for yourself if you can make it work / if these are the type of people you can do business with.

Lastly, maybe worth speaking to the Angus Trails group (who must have been on the ground for at least 3 years) Dont think they had a specific site / windfarm situation but they will certainly have come into contact with some of the folk I'm alluding to.

Worth politely asking the windfarm developer for some support? They may be interested to contribute to help their image in the area, and often have to contribute to an area anyway.

Hi All

Yes will do and keep you all informed on this board. I have to deal with FC so i know how they work, but we will push on.

Badger

Also, no disrespect to CM etc but the English scene isn't really relevant because success is largely dependant on local politics and the power of a small handful of individuals within FCS Management Board.

Agreed. Same power distribution in England, just different peeps.

I always get depressed reading that Carron Valley site, not least because I've had some similar experiences. Rode up their before Xmas with a mate living in Stirling, was a nice ride. Bloody cold mind 😉

Badger, good luck with it. If you don't ask / try then you never know whether you'll get anything. Whilsts there's quite a bit of bleak realism in the responses you never know. FE being disorganised, chaotic and inconsistent can occasionally work to your advantage 😉