"yo"?

You ain't gonna confuse me wid ya street jive, honkie!

Stumpy. I would do A – as I know that driving safely only will cost yo a few seconds.

In which case you haven't actually read the question properly.

TJ, would you… really? In theory it would actually cost you more like an hour in total travel time if the scenario played out for the entire journey. It's a 150+ mile journey, you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

mrmo – Member

thinking, if your doing 70 and the car outside of you is doing 60 are you undertaking or are you making progress?

rule 163 highway code

stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

how many cars is a queue? and how slowly is slow?

I asked this very question of one of the Senior Observers during my IAM training.

He said that if the driver in the overtaking lane was doing 60 or less, he would perform an undertake if it was safe to do so. He would also give a toot on the horn and a single flash of the lights to alert the other driver of his presence.

Al – its not my interpretation of safe driving – its the law. Undertaking is never right and yo must know that.

It's not the law, you're wrong.

you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

Never – he wouldn't do that would he?

And in that scenario, what would happen if a third driver came up behind them? It would end up a rolling roadblock 🙂

TJ, would you… really? In theory it would actually cost you more like an hour in total travel time if the scenario played out for the entire journey. It's a 150+ mile journey, you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

TJ arguing for the sake of it? Well I never… 🙄

EDIT: beaten to it by 7 seconds…

TJ arguing for the sake of it?

Normally he has a point, this is just ridiculous.

Normally Occasionally he has a point, this is just ridiculous.

There, fixed it for you 😉

We all have a point occasionally. It's just that sometimes not everyone agrees with the point being made. I don't recall TJ having a point more regularly than most other forum users 😉

The southern yeti – yes I would. it never cost more than a few seconds and rarely that. I have seen accidents caused by tailgating.

I have come up behind a slow car in the outside lane and watched in my mirrors a long line of cars building up behind me. I have dropped into the middle lane and let the queue clear. Within 5 miles I was back infront of the same car I was in front of when I dropped into the middle lane so that cost me no time at all.

I have also had a very near miss in this situation. On my motorbike I was in a queue in the outside lane and all the cars were far too close together. I dropped into the middle lane. Near the front of the line someone hit the brakes. the car that was behind me hit the car infront as they concertinaed together.

My safety comes first. NO undertaking, no getting tangled up in lines of cars too close together. Relax and let it flow. It costs youno time.

Coffeeking – undertaking on the motorway is always illegal unless its a traffic jam and you will be prosecuted for reckless if not dangerous driving.

Don't you live in Scotlandshire TJ? The only place I've ever seen those very sensible signs telling you to watch your mirrors and pull over to allow queues to clear as impatience causes accidents is on the A9. Presumably the people who put those signs there agree with the laws of physics that if you travel at a slower speed, it will take you longer to get somewhere too…

TJ you like a debate, accept the theoretical situation proposed.

150 mile journey, 3 in the morning very little other traffic.

Person in outside lane doing 50 mph will take 3 hrs to get there.

You (well me) prepared to bend the law wants to do 75mph, I'll get there in 2 hrs.

A few seconds? Or an hour?

Honestly, there seem to be a few (well more than a few) TJ haters on here, but I normally think you've got a point. Here you're alternative view based on knowledge of your own experience is just utter nonsense.

You like every other sensible person, would move to the inside lane and undertake, you would, surely.

No I wouldn't – because I know that that person will not be there for the whole journey. Thats my experience. They will get out of the outside lane eventually or someone else will come along and bully them out of the way.

Seriously – I just missed being involved in a serious accident in that sort of situation and it scared me. I will not sit in lines of cars too close together and I will not undertake

Tailgating is 100% stupid. Undertaking has its place it's a calculated risk that most drivers are more than competent enough to take.

TJ – Do you ever overtake on A or B roads? Or do you worry that the person in front who has been consistantly staying on the same side of the road will suddenly swerve into the oncoming lane that you are about to use?

Why am I even trying to reason with you??

I have also had a very near miss in this situation. On my motorbike I was in a queue in the outside lane and all the cars were far too close together. I dropped into the middle lane. Near the front of the line someone hit the brakes. the car that was behind me hit the car infront as they concertinaed together.

Which has precisely zero to do with what we are debating. Almost the opposite in fact given that undertaking rather than sitting behind the selfish idiot allows such queues to clear. Can't see why you'd think it might have been a problem had you not moved, given you were presumably keeping enough distance from the car in front of you that you'd not have had to brake hard (personally I always consider it a personal failing if I have to brake on the motorway apart from in exceptional circumstances)?

Sometimes TSY yes. I am less anxious about it than I used to be having realised how little time it saves and as I don't drive a lot these days I am a bit rusty so I tend to try to work out if there is much point. If the road is busy I tend not to bother because I know thqat I'll just end up behind another car a mile or two up the road.

Mind you some of the motorcycling speeding got a bit silly. 300 a road miles in under 4 hrs, 240 mixed motorway and A road miles in 3 hrs etc etc.

From teh highway code: Note the wording has changed and this clearly says that the undertake of a car in the outside lane is wrong

# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

"Should", not "Must", so not illegal. In any case it's nonsensical to think the second rule means that because you're in a queue in the right lane you can't change lanes into an empty one to your left. Once you're there it's just an interpretation of what "queue" and "slowly" means. I guess you'd be pushing it to suggest one car is a queue, but 60 is certainly "slow" for the right lane in a 70 limit. As soon as they have another behind them, that's a queue and you can overtake them on the left without breaking that rule.

where is the "should?"

163

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in

Give vulnerable road users at least as much space as you would a car

* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)

taken from here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070314

Sorry TJ, but on this occasion you are not correct.

There is no queue on the right – it is a single car.

You are clutching at straws. The police prosecute for undertaking on motorways – usually for reckless driving sometimes dangerous.

But if you are behind it, it is no longer a single car, it is a queue. 😀

By the way. Have you taken any further driver training since passing your test?

You are clutching at straws. The police prosecute for undertaking on motorways – usually for reckless driving sometimes dangerous.

Yes, but for the sort of thing somebody did to me (I mentioned it on here a few days ago – do a search), not for moving into an empty lane to the left and carefully speeding up to the NSL whilst Mr lane hog sits there ignoring everything going on around him.

The only time I've been banned on STW was when I expressed a wish that the owner of a Focus ST/driving god killed himself at the wheel before killing anyone else with it.

Most of the contributors here are motorists first and cyclists second.

freddyg – Member
163

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in

Give vulnerable road users at least as much space as you would a car

* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)

taken from here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070314

Sorry TJ, but on this occasion you are not correct.

As already said Rule 163 applies only when the traffic is moving slowly in queues. Slowly has been tested in the courts and in the case of NSL on a motorway / DC you need to be doing less than half the speed limit.

'Undertaking' in the case renton described is not a specific offence but it would immediately attract a pull and a minimum of a FPN for 'without due care'. In the case renton described quite possibly a summons for 'dangerous' especially if he had been clocked doing 100.

For the record, there are rare occasions when someone will deliberately sit out in Lane 3 at say 50 in free-flowing traffic – they too will get pulled and if they are doing it to deliberately hold people up also get a FPN for 'without due care and consideration', perhaps 'dangerous' even if they have for example deliberately slowed or 'brake checked' the one behind them.

Anyhow, back to the TJs original point, yes it's disappointing that these 'motoring' related threads do seem to degenerate into a flood of examples and supposed justification for bad driving.

It seems to be a more of a mountain biker trait, less so amongst people who ride the road regularly, even less so amongst commuters – I generalise of course.

Educator / analogue andy – thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

I just find this quite astonishing on here that bad driving is lauded and considered to be normal

I have seen (today) flashing headlights to move someone out of the way and undertaking defended. In the past speeding and using of mobile phones as well as an unwillingness to compromise car driving to get a better deal for cyclists and public transport users.

I just cannot understand the attitude from what is supposed to be a bunch of cyclists

I often ride to localish MTB events. The driving standards of the drivers of the 4X4 pickups with MTBs in the back is lousy. We were quite literally run off the road by a fellow MTBer on one occasion.

TandemJeremy – Member
…thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

Maybe it's the downhillers?

(Joke, honest, I wouldn't make fun of fat boys who have to push their bikes up hills) 😆

push their bikes up hills

Push?… Push?.. Are you out of your fu(king mind?!! What the hell are uplift days for? Push, what a pr1ck!

havnt got time to answer , im road testing a toyota prius, so cant stop now to chat.

i love driving…so i drive way to fast often…but i do keep an eye out for cyclists…and give them a wide birth…treat them like horses

TandemJeremy – Member
Educator / analogue andy – thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

I just find this quite astonishing on here that bad driving is lauded and considered to be normal

I just cannot understand the attitude from what is supposed to be a bunch of cyclists

I'm astonished that you're astonished. It seems that you expect STW forumites to be different to any other part of the population. Remember, lots of folk on here view cycling as an activity that takes place away from the public road.

Its not that they are drivers – its the petrol head / clarkson tendency. I think they are more so than the general population and I expected less petrol head tendencies on a cyclist forum.

TandemJeremy – Member
Its not that they are drivers – its the petrol head / clarkson tendency. I think they are more so than the general population

Look at the demographics. Average for STW is 36, male…….

I expected less petrol head tendencies on a cyclist forum.

As above

TandemJeremy

but undertaking on the motorway – never acceptable

The usual absolute pish from you.

Tonight, driving home on a 3 lane motorway with a 70mph limit. I'm in the inside lane doing 60. In the middle lane up ahead there are 3 cars going about 50mph.

There's no way I'm swinging out from the inside lane across to the 3rd/ outside lane just to overtake these retards.

I'll just continue along safely undertaking them.

Have a read of analogue andys posts on the other thread

Undertaking is never acceptable. You would be done if he saw you.

Numpty

Edit
Infact see as you are hard of thinking here it is

AnalogueAndy – Member

"TandemJeremy – Member

Is undertaking justified then? "

Would take too long to explain the rare circumstances when overtaking on the left is permitted, with care, but no, 'undertaking' is not.

'Undertaking' is a very apt name for it. People don't expect to be passed on the inside and, if they do pull across, the 'undertaker' is at fault.

Far better as I already said, to hang back for a few seconds, avoid the conflict and invariably it sorts itself out.

I'll just continue along safely chancing my arm undertaking them.

There, fixed it for you.

Undertaking is never "safe". You might get away with it (god knows, when I was a god of the road, I chanced it a few times, and thankfully got away with it), but it's not safe.

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