The country does not need 'fewer' grads. There has never been a shortage of binmen, plumbers or the un-employed, and if there is, it's redressed by a migrant workforce. But we're regularly told theres a shortage of doctors and engineers?

Now it's not those becoming doctors and engineers that's the problem is it?

Anyone remember who introduced fees? That's right, "socialist" Tony Bliar the day after he was elected, even Thatcher hadn't inflicted that on the country's youth.

I didn't pay fees, got a grant and cost my parents nothing. Accomodation was £5 a week in a shared farmhouse with source water, a septic tank and an Aga that resulted in us felling a tree when we felt cold. I didn't buy books but lived in the library when it was cold (good for results). Cheap scraps from the butcher and supermarket bins provided food (I still can't resist looking in bins), jumble sales clothes, holiday jobs cash. Magic mushrooms grew up the hill.

Erasmus can provide a cheap year what with the grant and lower costs in some participating countries.

"the country does not need 'fewer' grads. There has never been a shortage of binmen, plumbers or the un-employed, and if there is, it's redressed by a migrant workforce. But we're regularly told theres a shortage of doctors and engineers?"

I completely agree and if one of my kids wanted to pursue a career in medicine or engineering and be with them all the way. It seems to me that to some, university has almost become a right of passage, an expectation that kids go there to break the bond with home, have a good time etc, with the educational aspect almost seen as secondary. I think it is important to break the bonds with home, have a good time etc, but think that this can be achieved through other means, e.g. travelling. This might give them a sense of what they want to do and achieve in life and perhaps go to university later with a clearer focus

I think we'd assumed that the NUS figures were the present day equivalent of what students got back in the day (late '70s) but I think having read the comments above and the daughters' lifestyles there's been a bit of inflation of perceived "need" (clothes eating out holidays etc). In my day the first job meant a transition to more cash in the pocket, but that's far more unlikely in these times…

It seems to me that to some, university has almost become a right of passage, an expectation that kids go there to break the bond with home, have a good time etc, with the educational aspect almost seen as secondary. I think it is important to break the bonds with home, have a good time etc, but think that this can be achieved through other means, e.g. travelling. This might give them a sense of what they want to do and achieve in life and perhaps go to university later with a clearer focus

I'd agree with that (although do keep sending your kids to uni people – it pays my wages!) – the best kind of students are the ones who know what they want to do and have some idea of why. It doesn't have to be that they want to do engineering or whatever, someone who wants to study media studies because they are absolutely fascinated by radical feminist critiques of 1970s Prog Rock might just as sensibly go to university. It is the ones who aren't motivated at all, and just went because they felt they should, or are motivated by going and and getting pissed for 3 years, or came to uni to do a subject because their parents told them to who could really benefit from not just turning up by default.

Joe

The lifestyle of relatives' kids leaves me shaking my head. Ever increasing debt, more handouts, a rally to Mongolia on another loan, ski holidays. They have no idea of what cash represents in terms of hours of prostituting oneself to the highest bidder and how many hours of corporate exploitation they will go through to pay it back at the same time as presumably paying a mort gage USW.

A Sweedish friend had the right idea, when faced with paying back the mountain of debt he left the country rather than live on what was left of his salary – the punishment for his years of investing in himself on behalf of his country.

£60 a week rent, no Council Tax.
£10 a week bills.
£25 a week on food.

5 or 6k after fees are paid is at the generous end of things – enough money for nights out etc. Remember they're only at uni for something like 36 weeks of the year.

And yes, the average SU committee member is a hooray with lots of dosh from bank of mum and dad.

Oh, and having been to uni and dropped out once, I can say that nothing motivates like a year doing dead end jobs beforehand.

And another thing. I knew of quite a few people who would accrue debt they couldn't pay off. Then they'd go to mum and dad upset because they couldn't pay it off. So the parents pay it. I'd hold some cash back for that sort of scenario.

You can always give them more if they're hungry, but you can't claw it back once they've spent it on champers and coke. And some students do.

I thought their dosh came from inventive use of SU funds. Some of ours did, and not a hooray in sight.

£10k is only a guide for most as Uni accommodation with meal will set you back around £5k++. Without meal slightly cheaper. Need another £3K++ for other activities I guess. Average private accommodation in the North East is around £60/week nowadays but by the time you add up the rest it will cost more. I think the £10k per year budget is a guide more suitable for int'l students.

but you can't claw it back once they've spent it on champers and coke.

Reminds me of a house mate who got given £20/week by his Dad on top of his PhD funding – he used it for special substances which I'd have felt quite bad about.

You could claw some of it back via small time dealing 😳

Re accomodation – just had a look at the fees at my old halls in Manchester (25 mins from the centre, so walkable to UMIST or Owens):

http://www.accommodation.manchester.ac.uk/ouraccommodation/areaguide/victoriapark/hulmehall/

Approx 114 per week, unless things have changed (I doubt it) the only meals *not* covered would be lunch mon-sat. No retainer/rent paid to landlord outside term time, I suspect no council tax to be paid, no dealings with crap landlords, and the majority of food covered.

FWIW, when I was there it was about 35 quid a week, and I was getting a full grant of 55 or 60 quid..

I'm not really looking forward to all of this but its interesting to see how much sheffield is mentioned as they're where i plan to go 🙂 studying maths that is. I decided i like their realistic offer and not the A*AA + A @ further maths AS + STEP paper or Bath's offer which is impossible for me to achieve as it requires A2 further maths and i'm only sitting AS :/

Get yourself a time machine and go back 30 years, you'll only need a couple of Cs. There again getting those Cs was somewhat harder than getting a brace of As in these bog-paper A-level times.

its all relative? I do work hard for my grades it have to say 🙂

The big kicker, of course if you're an overseas student instead of UK based is that your annual course fees are around £13k instead of £3225 (Sheffield again), depending on the course. Hope for your sake DrJ that you have maintained the criteria for home fees rather than overseas, (or that the job has been paying enough abroad for this to be a non issue).