Like most students, I had a series of pretty awful jobs but couldn't have got by without them.
My daughter says she doesn't want "a boring job like yours"* , so I think it will be a good education for her to see what a REALLY boring job is. It should focus her mind a bit on the value of her education.
(*I enjoyed recalling that, when work paid for me to sit drinking a cold beer in Turks and Caicos)
When you see the cost you have to think whether or not HE offers value for money. Having worked in the sector I tend to think not.
That's a good point and shame others don't look at it the same way; we need fewer grads.
I don't think saying that HE doesn't offer good value for money is the same as saying we need fewer grads necessarily.
If I had to choose again, I wouldn't go to university, it wasn't worth it for me. I was the first year of fee paying students, I'd already applied before they announced the fee introduction, had I had more time to consider options I probably would have ended up doing something else, went into it not knowing how student loans were going to be paid back. The terms are somewhat different from pre 1998 loans.
I don't know how much it's changed now, but it used to be "the poorer you are, the more money you can borrow" which just seems a bit bizarre. I applied to the hardship fund at uni and got a small bursary and some extra loan to take out which of course is extra loan to pay back.
**** hell its a lot of cash isnt it. Its also bizare that students dont wear crappy second hand clothes and smoke roll ups like they did in my day.
Hmmm interesting read. Can't believe how generous you lot are to your kids. My parents basically supported me up to A levels and then said your old enough to work so you pay your own way through uni. Luckily I didn't have to add on tution fees but I put myself through uni by working part time during term time and full time (60hrs+) during holidays. I didn't have a car or go on ski holidays, which is what I see many students do. I did however drink an awful lot of beer at £1 a pint....
Personally I'd make sure their tution fees are covered (that's alot to find up front) but then they can earn the rest to pay for their keep and accomodation. It's good practise. I think I lived off around £500 a month and came out of uni owing £12k which I've paid off now. I had no financial support from the family and the government paid my tution so it is doable.
Btw I had a job as a life guard/gym instructor and it paid relatively well back then and had pretty flexible hours to fit around lectures
I'm casting my mind back to when I were a student...
tuition was paid for, and I had a grant from govt, topped up by parents, so I just had to work in summer holidays. I didn't need to borrow, but I only lived at a level that no middle class kid would accept today (crappy accommodation, crappy food, crappy clothes, no holidays).
I guess my wish would be that uni should not be a parents-funded soft option, but that she should be secure, albeit not at luxury levels.
Maybe I am old-fashioned ... 
The country does not need 'fewer' grads. There has never been a shortage of binmen, plumbers or the un-employed, and if there is, it's redressed by a migrant workforce. But we're regularly told theres a shortage of doctors and engineers?
Now it's not those becoming doctors and engineers that's the problem is it?
Anyone remember who introduced fees? That's right, "socialist" Tony Bliar the day after he was elected, even Thatcher hadn't inflicted that on the country's youth.
I didn't pay fees, got a grant and cost my parents nothing. Accomodation was £5 a week in a shared farmhouse with source water, a septic tank and an Aga that resulted in us felling a tree when we felt cold. I didn't buy books but lived in the library when it was cold (good for results). Cheap scraps from the butcher and supermarket bins provided food (I still can't resist looking in bins), jumble sales clothes, holiday jobs cash. Magic mushrooms grew up the hill.
Erasmus can provide a cheap year what with the grant and lower costs in some participating countries.
"the country does not need 'fewer' grads. There has never been a shortage of binmen, plumbers or the un-employed, and if there is, it's redressed by a migrant workforce. But we're regularly told theres a shortage of doctors and engineers?"
I completely agree and if one of my kids wanted to pursue a career in medicine or engineering and be with them all the way. It seems to me that to some, university has almost become a right of passage, an expectation that kids go there to break the bond with home, have a good time etc, with the educational aspect almost seen as secondary. I think it is important to break the bonds with home, have a good time etc, but think that this can be achieved through other means, e.g. travelling. This might give them a sense of what they want to do and achieve in life and perhaps go to university later with a clearer focus
I think we'd assumed that the NUS figures were the present day equivalent of what students got back in the day (late '70s) but I think having read the comments above and the daughters' lifestyles there's been a bit of inflation of perceived "need" (clothes eating out holidays etc). In my day the first job meant a transition to more cash in the pocket, but that's far more unlikely in these times...
It seems to me that to some, university has almost become a right of passage, an expectation that kids go there to break the bond with home, have a good time etc, with the educational aspect almost seen as secondary. I think it is important to break the bonds with home, have a good time etc, but think that this can be achieved through other means, e.g. travelling. This might give them a sense of what they want to do and achieve in life and perhaps go to university later with a clearer focus
I'd agree with that (although do keep sending your kids to uni people - it pays my wages!) - the best kind of students are the ones who know what they want to do and have some idea of why. It doesn't have to be that they want to do engineering or whatever, someone who wants to study media studies because they are absolutely fascinated by radical feminist critiques of 1970s Prog Rock might just as sensibly go to university. It is the ones who aren't motivated at all, and just went because they felt they should, or are motivated by going and and getting pissed for 3 years, or came to uni to do a subject because their parents told them to who could really benefit from not just turning up by default.
Joe
The lifestyle of relatives' kids leaves me shaking my head. Ever increasing debt, more handouts, a rally to Mongolia on another loan, ski holidays. They have no idea of what cash represents in terms of hours of prostituting oneself to the highest bidder and how many hours of corporate exploitation they will go through to pay it back at the same time as presumably paying a mort gage USW.
A Sweedish friend had the right idea, when faced with paying back the mountain of debt he left the country rather than live on what was left of his salary - the punishment for his years of investing in himself on behalf of his country.
£60 a week rent, no Council Tax.
£10 a week bills.
£25 a week on food.
5 or 6k after fees are paid is at the generous end of things - enough money for nights out etc. Remember they're only at uni for something like 36 weeks of the year.
And yes, the average SU committee member is a hooray with lots of dosh from bank of mum and dad.
Oh, and having been to uni and dropped out once, I can say that nothing motivates like a year doing dead end jobs beforehand.
And another thing. I knew of quite a few people who would accrue debt they couldn't pay off. Then they'd go to mum and dad upset because they couldn't pay it off. So the parents pay it. I'd hold some cash back for that sort of scenario.
You can always give them more if they're hungry, but you can't claw it back once they've spent it on champers and coke. And some students do.
I thought their dosh came from inventive use of SU funds. Some of ours did, and not a hooray in sight.
£10k is only a guide for most as Uni accommodation with meal will set you back around £5k++. Without meal slightly cheaper. Need another £3K++ for other activities I guess. Average private accommodation in the North East is around £60/week nowadays but by the time you add up the rest it will cost more. I think the £10k per year budget is a guide more suitable for int'l students.
but you can't claw it back once they've spent it on champers and coke.
Reminds me of a house mate who got given £20/week by his Dad on top of his PhD funding - he used it for special substances which I'd have felt quite bad about.
You could claw some of it back via small time dealing 
Re accomodation - just had a look at the fees at my old halls in Manchester (25 mins from the centre, so walkable to UMIST or Owens):
http://www.accommodation.manchester.ac.uk/ouraccommodation/areaguide/victoriapark/hulmehall/
Approx 114 per week, unless things have changed (I doubt it) the only meals *not* covered would be lunch mon-sat. No retainer/rent paid to landlord outside term time, I suspect no council tax to be paid, no dealings with crap landlords, and the majority of food covered.
FWIW, when I was there it was about 35 quid a week, and I was getting a full grant of 55 or 60 quid..
I'm not really looking forward to all of this but its interesting to see how much sheffield is mentioned as they're where i plan to go 
studying maths that is. I decided i like their realistic offer and not the A*AA + A @ further maths AS + STEP paper or Bath's offer which is impossible for me to achieve as it requires A2 further maths and i'm only sitting AS :/
Get yourself a time machine and go back 30 years, you'll only need a couple of Cs. There again getting those Cs was somewhat harder than getting a brace of As in these bog-paper A-level times.
its all relative? I do work hard for my grades it have to say
The big kicker, of course if you're an overseas student instead of UK based is that your annual course fees are around £13k instead of £3225 (Sheffield again), depending on the course. Hope for your sake DrJ that you have maintained the criteria for home fees rather than overseas, (or that the job has been paying enough abroad for this to be a non issue).
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