OK, so today I got a speeding ticket through the post for traveling at 39mph in a 30.
I was driving the car, and it was in the location the ticket says.
I know, I should be shot….
However. I was traveling past the Glastonbury festival on the A37 early on Sunday morning to take the kids to the coast for the day.
The speed limit is 50mph.
There were signs for temporary traffic lights (which there weren’t, or at least they weren’t operating, the lights were turned into the hedge as there was practically no traffic)
I can’t recall any other temporary speed limit signs on the road, neither can the other 2 adults in the car. I certainly saw the police motorbike, and recall the dodgy driving of the Merc in front of me (also in my ‘offence’ ticket). In fact, I got the kids to wave to the ‘nice police men’!
So, now I’m in a position to try to prove that the signs that I don’t think were there, weren’t there, without being able to go back and check (the road is only 15mins away from me).
Or, do does the prosecution have to prove they were there? And how wold that be done. After all, I can’t prove a negative…
Suspect I’m going to get stuffed with 3 points as I’ve no way of knowing which way the magistrate will find, and it’ll be worse if they find against me and I haven’t admitted ‘guilt’ up front.
Any thoughts?

Point out it was taken in a 50 zone ? Surely if its normally a 50 they would need to prove it was a 30 at the time.

So was it a 50 or a 30? Was the 30 imposed just for the festival weekend?

falkirk-mark – Member
Point out it was taken in a 50 zone ?

This ^^^ perhaps?

You might want to invest in a dash cam for future travel.

Was is a 30 or 50?

That I can’t honestly say. It was a 50 before, and still is a 50 now, but perhaps a 30 was put into place for the festival, but just like the traffic light that weren’t there, the signs weren’t there (I’d swear on my kids life that I wasn’t just ignoring them!)

The question is, do I have to prove they weren’t there, and how do the police prove they ‘were’?

The only way I can point out that it was a 50 is already in court, where I strongly suspect I’ll be told I missed them and handed a bigger fine / points.

I guess it’s a ‘is it worth the risk of a greater penalty even though I believe it’s totally unjustified’?

I would certainly chance it and reply, pointing out that the road in question is a 50 limit.

See what happens.

I think you are saying that the section of road where you were caught is normally limited to 50 mph. However for some reason it had been reduced to 30 mph?
If you are confident that this is the case then you can request the police provide you with details of the Road Traffic Regulation Order that details the speed reduction, details the dates over which the reduction takes place and the locations where it should be.
You may find that the officer who actually checked you wasn’t aware of such an order being in place.
Alternatively, you may find everything was in order, in which case, suck it up.

No comment (speed awareness course on Monday).

I think you are saying that the section of road where you were caught is normally limited to 50 mph. However for some reason it had been reduced to 30 mph?
If you are confident that this is the case then you can request the police provide you with details of the Road Traffic Regulation Order that details the speed reduction, details the dates over which the reduction takes place and the locations where it should be.
You may find that the officer who actually checked you wasn’t aware of such an order being in place.
Alternatively, you may find everything was in order, in which case, suck it up.

There’s a good chance that there were temporary restrictions in place, but, how am I supposed to know without correct signage? The 50 signs were certainly still visible, both the ‘gateway’ and the ‘repeaters’
the only other signs I saw were for the non existent temporary lights, there to direct festival traffic of which there was none due to the time.
I suspect that if I looked like I was festival traffic I would have been pulled by the other two bike there in case I was still pissed from the sat night!
As I think this through I feel it’s worth a go to defend myself as I genuinely think I’m innocent of ‘speeding’ although I may have been exceeding a temporary limit of which I was unaware!

Do the road traffic regulation orders still go in the London Gazette or local papers? If so probably available with some Google skills.

If so (and only if so) you might be able to confirm that there was one at the time.

If there was then you (possibly) screwed up, safest would seem to be take the points and move on unless you’re in the mood for a fight and ok to take the risk on points/fine.

If you can’t find a trace of one then maybe there was a police /limit screw up and you can think about what to do more.

[Usual stw]****** Criminals on here. Should be given a public flogging, three consecutive life bans from driving a billion pound fine and have half an eyebrow removed[\stw]

[Alt stw] it’s only 9mph over and that’s just making progress especially if there was a caravan in the way and it was raining. [\alt stw]

(You’ve all been very restrained so far).

(You’ve all been very restrained so far).

That’s only because the OP’s actions have been are so sickening I’ve been vomiting in anger for the last hour.

You’re history’s greatest monster, OP.

Hangings too good etc etc.

Hah, I agree, normally I’d take it on the chin. And I’d also wade into the ‘making progress’ argument as well!
Only with the wife, kids, MiL in the car and driving in virtually no traffic, down a signposted 50 road, at under 40 due to the number of festival security guards, police and the chance of pissed / stoned muppets coming out of the festival, I do feel a little hard done by. I’m utterly positive that had I been pulled over, I actually would be OK because we could have gone back and had a look for the signs!

Can you not google map the speed limit on that location? Just a thought. 🙂

Sometimes I find the speed limit sign (round one with red circle and speed) rather small and can be easily missed. The normal ones are large but some road they change them to smaller ones as I noticed recently. My sat nav says 30 but the small speed limit says 20 … huge different there.

p16

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=122032&type=full&servicetype=Attachment

So. The road was a 50 usually and you were doing 39? Are you sure you didn’t see the 30 signs and slow down but just not enough. 39 is pretty slow on a 50 limit road if you get my meaning.

The obligation to prove the facts of the case rests with the crown. In a case like this the pertinent facts requiring proof beyond reasonable doubt are:

– you were driver of the vehicle (you are required by s172 of the RTA to confirm that), so you prove that for them with your response
– the speed limit on the road at the time
– that you were exceeding that speed

If it was a 30 limit you are not contesting the latter. So the question is what was the limit at the time. There are two parts to establish there (I) was there a TRO in force covering the time period and (Ii) was the signage correct for that limit at the time.

The crown will prove I) with the paperwork if it is correct. They will seek to prove ii) with witness evidence from the officer(s) operating the speed trap. Usually the officer will be able to give evidence that before setting up in that location he checked the signs and they were clearly visible, he may even have video evidence to support that. You can cross examine the officer to see if he really remembers it on that occasion or if he might have assumed it was there because it was say the day before, or if it was windy and they could have blown over. The bench will rarely believe the police officer is lying, but are sometimes persuaded he may be mistaken. If there were two officers it usually is even harder to convince them unless they contradict each other. Of course he may give evidence that supports your story. You can also call your witnesses to give evidence. The crown will paint them as not being impartial witnesses, weren’t driving so wouldn’t have been paying proper attention, etc. However if you all gave good credible evidence it would make 3:1 v’s a bike cop and that could be enough doubt no matter what he says if he doesn’t have video (and they don’t bring out the guy who errected the signs etc). If you had neighbours who passed through about the same time and supported your claim then you would be better placed. In theory you can cite them but a day spent sitting in court so YOU might not get a fine is an act most neighbours would not relish.

If you have a clean license you can use that to add credibility to your story, not because people with clean licenses are necessarily better drivers, but rather because people willing to risk the bigger costs of court are usually at risk of totting up (the bench won’t see your license information before conviction unless you bring it up).

Assuming you’ve not been caught in last three yrs you should get a speed awareness offer which with no points and less than a £100 cost is a gamble compared to fines and costs after trial of perhaps £600+ and at least 3 pts, plus a lot of time sitting in court rooms.

jam bo – Member
p16

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=122032&type=full&servicetype=Attachment

I bet that must be the reason but how do people know if they don’t live in that area? 😯

chewkw, as always your intellectual ability amazes me! THE NORMAL SPEED LIMIT IS 50MPH.
The smaller signs are the repeater ones that come after the gateway signs which would have been bigger.

Jam bo, as I thought, there was a temporary reduction, just like the temporary traffic lights. The only issue I have is no signs and I’d failed to read the 16 page document saying that there was a different limit, and there were 50mph signs!
Just wish I had a dash cam.

So. The road was a 50 usually and you were doing 39? Are you sure you didn’t see the 30 signs and slow down but just not enough. 39 is pretty slow on a 50 limit road if you get my meaning.

Yep, following a speed up / slow down silver merc which I was convinced had a pissed driver in. I was chatting to my wife saying that he’d be pulled before long. Normally on that road I’d actually have overtaken given the speed but I was to worried about being side swiped!

Poly, that’s very useful but sadly confirms my fears that I’m better taking the points / course even though I’m convinced I did nothing actually ‘wrong’ – other than speed of course!

can you tell I’m avoiding doing some work…

based on it being a temporary restriction, is the onus on them to prove it was signposted correctly?

was it from a camera van or the police bike?

police bike, with another 2 in attendance, I assume to pull over anyone looking rough from the festival / general Saturday night

based on it being a temporary restriction, is the onus on them to prove it was signposted correctly?

This – It seems reasonable to assume that this is the the case, but how do I go about checking / asking for the evidence before saying nuts to it, I made a mistake and taking the points? By the time I know, it’ll be too late to do other than argue in court.
Also, that begs the question, what is adequate signage?

I’m going to hazard a guess that if they were pulling people for speeding faster than thirty, my money is on you not noticing the signs rather than the signs not being there. It would seem to me to be a pretty basic error for the plod not to make sure that the temp signs were in place before they started the speed trap.(not impossible of course). Whether the police evidence will stand up in court is another matter.

with a mobile speed gun? surely a bike would have pulled you over there and then and issued a ticket?

It was a mobile gun. No, I wasn’t pulled in. I’ve received the letter tonight from the 26th. There was certainly incorrect signage on the way up, the big ones saying 50 and the repeaters also saying that, as well as the temporary traffic light ones which weren’t operational (but would have been on Sunday night / Monday I guess)
If I did make a mistake, how do I check if there is additional evidence prior to going to court? It appears the only way is to roll the dice?

Can you not google map the speed limit on that location? Just a thought.

Try reading the thread.

Sometimes I find the speed limit sign (round one with red circle and speed) rather small and can be easily missed. The normal ones are large but some road they change them to smaller ones as I noticed recently. My sat nav says 30 but the small speed limit says 20 … huge different there.

WTF. Did you actually pass a driving test ?

suck it up I reckon. without proof there was no signage i think your gonna struggle and it would seem unlikely they would go to the bother of setting up like that without checking the signage first.

maybe contact them first and ask.

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/advice/vehicles-and-roads/speeding/speeding-contact-details/

as well as the temporary traffic light ones which weren’t operational

Yes, but in that case the signage had been put up. You are arguing that certain signs hadn’t. Would they put up the traffic light signs but not the speed limit signs? How is that going to look in court.

jam bo – most useful thank you. I hadn’t found that I’ll gove em a call in the morning to find out if there’s any way of knowing if the signage was checked and I’d missed it!

Suck it up sounds quite likely, and there’s a lot on at the moment which will preclude me from spending a week in court debating the crime of the century!

Yes, but in that case the signage had been put up. You are arguing that certain signs hadn’t. Would they put up the traffic light signs but not the speed limit signs? How is that going to look in court.

given that there were also 50mph signs and loads of bods around changing things around, I assume it’d look just like it is, bloody confusing! However, that doesn’t mean it’ll be found in my favour!

Nealglover – yep – it’s a worry!

For the temporary speed limit to be valid, all the 50mph signs must be covered, including all the repeated signs.

My dad just got off a speeding ticket by writing in and mentioning some mitigating facts relating to why he was speeding. The person he wrote to wrote back and cancelled the points/ find without going to court.

It’s. worth writing in and stating the facts/ your concerns. If you gave any locals who’d corroborate your story, mention that etc. Still cost the police/ taxpayer to go to court and if it’s a bit 50/50 they prob don’t want the hassle any more than you. Prob helps if you’ve hit no convictions already etc…

Fun fact (& of no use to the OP’s defence) – the fixed speed camera on the A37 at Pylle, just before the turn to the back way into the Festival, was the most vandalised camera in the U.K. and has not been replaced after the last immolation. That there’s feuding country…. </spits tobacco>

Can you not google map the speed limit on that location? Just a thought.

Yes it gets updated every week!! 🙄

I would write back saying the only speed limit signs in evidence at the time were 50.

Tinybits – do not phone and ask for the evidence , they aren’t required to give you any at this stage, and you put them into police officer mode. However our local SCP (not the same as yours) are actually very cooperative if people phone them puzzled but clearly willing to pay if they are in the wrong. (If it turns out the signs were there a course will help stop you making the same mistake again).

you aren’t entitled to any evidence before it goes to court* , but you will see the evidence before trial and can change your plea at that stage – getting up to 1/3 off the fine and a substantial reduction in costs.

* that may seem unreasonable, but consider it was brought in as an alternative to court, for people who willingly admit they were in the wrong to avoid unnecessary effort by police and prosecutor for matters that were never going to be contested.

My dad just got off a speeding ticket by writing in and mentioning some mitigating facts relating to why he was speeding.

What facts were they, out of interest?

I would definitely write and complain that the 30MPH signs weren’t showing . If you have been summonsed for this offence then the chances are that a lot of others have been as well so yours will be one of many complaints.

OP this sort of thing happens more than people realise. It is worth pursuing, proving there was no sign will be a challenge I suspect (police will say under oath it was there and you missed it)

Phone the council and ask when they cleared them away.

i drove to Glasto on the Friday morning. There definitely were *some* 30 signs in the area; I remember because at one point there was a temporary 30 sign; everyone but me seemed to ignore it, 30 felt achingly slow and I trundled through at, oh, probably about 39. You’ve got me worried now!

re: allthegear’s post – I’m pretty sure that the 50 signs weren’t all covered up. But I couldn’t be certain that i’m not just thinking of the signs that were outside the temporary zone…