Forum menu
Still think the whole trademark is highly dubious.
This guy Dan Richter has named his shop as a [i]tribute[/i] to the great race and the spirit embodied therein.
Specialized have merely [i]appropriated[/i] all of that for themselves, and are using their weight to bully others into not referencing all those good connotations. If Specialized had created the race they might have some kind of moral claim over it, but they didn't and haven't.
glenp - Member
Still think the whole trademark is highly dubious.
Logic agrees. The problem is that the laws there allow for it and do insist that you protect it. The secondary problem is that people misunderstand what proctecting it really requires and go in heavy handed like this when they don't need to.
Wonder if SpokeShirts could be talked into doing a limited run of their old t-shirt 😉
poisonspider - Member
Just considering the legal position for a sec and not the moral/emotional aspect.If they don't contest it their trademark registration doesn't stand therefore anyone can use it. To some extent they are FORCED to contest it otherwise their trademark is worthless.
Having said that, I cant imagine his shop would ever harm their revenue from using the name by even $1.
I don't think they were "FORCED" into issuing the C+D notice, Specialized's TM is applied as the name of a couple of their products, it does not apply as Specialized owning the word in connection with all cycling...
As for the name "Causing confusion" amongst consumers, that does kind of suggest Specialized think the people who buy their products are pretty thick TBH... If it went to court Specialized would need to demonstrate this supposed "confusion" amongst consumers, I think they might struggle, put 'em on the stand and ask how many sales they think they've actually lost...
[img] 
[/img]
Specialized are basically saying that they believe some Canadian cyclists will associate the word Roubaix with their plastic bike rather than with the world famous classic race. Pretty much a definition of arrogance.
[img] 
[/img]
It seems Dan did offer to drop the name from the wheels - which is to be honest the only bit where Specialized may have a case. Forcing him to change the name of the shop is surely not something which would stand up in a court if they took it that far.
There is a beautiful example on ridingagainstthegrain of how this can be handled
Obviously the examples are a little different but the difference in approach is dramatic and in one case you end up loving the brand rather than hating it
Sure, big business doesn't often like to set a precedent for being sniped at, but Specialized could possibly come out of this quite well with a climb-down, done very publicly of course. It may be the best form of damage limitation, at least.
First Aaron Gwin, then the rest of the industry shafts them on MTB wheel size and now this.
Not been a good year for the big S.
I've just ordered one of his rather nice t-shirts.
leffeboy- a good example of how to do it right there. JD, smooth as fark.
As I understand it, Specialized don't need to sue, they just need to engage with café Roubaix. So the aggression isn't needed to protect their TM.
If the big boss man had gone over there and suggested he sell the Roubaix bikes, (could probably even offer him a bit of a discount over other the normal wholesale price) buy a coffee and then ask nicely if he wouldn't mind re-branding the wheels, all this could have been avoided. Specialized would even have come out of it smelling of roses, instead of s***.
edit - is the swear filter broken? I assume it should have picked up my last word!
[quote=tthew said]edit - is the swear filter broken? I assume it should have picked up my last word!
It doesn't work if you star the word out. If you originally wrote shit, then that isn't in the swear filter.
It's past mid-day on Monday in California and the Specialized Twitter feed and FB page are still eerily silent (at least from the company themselves - plenty of activity from everybody else still).
So, what do we reckon?
1 They don't back down but try to confuse the matter so that the less critical accept it. Eg continuing the "we had to do it" line. The Armstrong method.
2 They back off completely. Very unlikely I reckon.
3 They don't apologise but agree that they were a little excessive and come to a deal with the shop, probably agreeing to rename the wheels but not the shop. No details of it released though.
4 other
I'm going for 3
So out of curiosity, boycotter folks, who else do you boycott? Being a dick about trademarks isn't the most severe of crimes, so I imagine you'll all have a massive list of companies that have done worse and that you avoid?
But other situations are different. In the cycling market there are numerous alternatives to Specialized when buying a bike or some other kit. If you're trying to decide between several options it's an easy way to shorten the list.
Who else do you suggest we should be boycotting, and what are the alternatives?
aracer - MemberBut other situations are different. In the cycling market there are numerous alternatives to Specialized when buying a bike or some other kit.
You think that's different?
I'm not suggesting a list of boycotts! But I am suggesting that people get a sense of perspective, since they almost certainly do buy from companies that do far worse. Specialized don't as far as I'm aware support any oppressive governments, occupy Tibet, or sell baby milk powder to mothers of newborns, nor did they cause the collapse of the finance system of the western world, or put thousands of book shops/coffee shops (delete as appropriate) out of business while evading tax. There's many dick moves to be incensed about so why this one?
In support of the Roubaix Cafe, I have strung my wife's Myka from the garage rafters and kicked away the stool.
so why this one?
Because no matter how much some people refuse or don't want to believe it, there is a cycling community and it doesn't like to see bike companies behaving like big bully boys, particularly when it involves trying to take ownership of something that most people feel they have no legitimate right to regardless of what the law says.
So do you boycott Trek (or Pivot, pick either)? Shimano? Cane Creek? Or moving away from trademarks, how about Chris King?
There's many dick moves to be incensed about so why this one?
Perhaps it's because it's bike related and that makes it a subject close to some cyclists hearts? Perhaps some folk just don't extend their view to wider stuff or perhaps some people can give a toss about more than one issue at once? Perhaps as it's quite a small area of life they think their input may make a difference? To simply ignore one dick move just because there are many other dick moves seems pretty pathetic. Akin to saying 'ah fek, it's only like i've punched one girlfriend, there are plenty of dicks that have punched all their girlfriends, i'm a real catch!'.
[img] 
[/img]
smell_it - MemberTo simply ignore one dick move just because there are many other dick moves seems pretty pathetic. Akin to saying 'ah fek, it's only like i've punched one girlfriend, there are plenty of dicks that have punched all their girlfriends, i'm a real catch!'.
That is a pretty ridiculous comparison- it's not ignoring one because there's others, it's about obsessing about a relatively one when there's others that are worse. Perspective, in other words, rather than arbitrarily picking one thing to be furious about because it's on the internet.
I don't buy stuff from Amazon or Nestle, and always eat free range eggs - is it okay for me to have an opinion about this, as long as I don't get 'furious' or 'obsessive'?
Apparently not.
It's better to take perspective lessons from people getting angry about stuff other people are getting angry about.....
Heh, I'm not at all angry, just bewildered, that's why I asked the question. It all feels rather Kony 2012.
[quote=clubber ] no matter how much some people refuse or don't want to believe it, there is a cycling community
Biggest LOL of the day
Specialized's business practices are murky at best. Putting aside the numerous aggressive litigious acts they've undertaken, there are many stories of how badly they treat dealers (in the US at least). It doesn't take much digging to uncover the stories.
For eg.
Bell Sports alleges that Specialized threatened to withhold high-end bicycle inventory from dealers carrying Giro cycling shoes and that some dealers were told they would not receive their year-end purchase volume incentives or manufacturer rebates if they continued to sell Giro cycling shoes. As a result, Specialized dealers who carry Giro shoes have canceled existing orders, retracted on verbal product orders or asked Giro to take back inventory on their shelves, the suit documents stated.
Wednesday, February 01, 2006Stumptown Showdown: Specialized ™ Threatens Mountain Cycle with Lawsuit
Portland, OR—Specialized Bicycle Components is threatening legal action against Mountain Cycle, claiming the Portland, Oregon, manufacturer’s Stumptown cyclocross bike, now in it’s third year of production, infringes on the trademark Specialized holds on its Stumpjumper mountain bike.
Specialized also has defended its trademarks. In 2004 the Vancouver, British Columbia, titanium frame manufacturer previously known as Epic Bicycles was forced to change its name to Evereti Biycles in the face of legal pressure from Specialized, which has another full suspension model called Epic.
Speedplay went after a guy who was selling bearing rebuild kits on eBay. Massive thread on Weight Weenies about it.
[quote=Northwind said]You think that's different?
Until you provide an example of a company I should be boycotting in a marketplace where there are other companies providing a direct equivalent such that it makes no difference to me to boycott them, yes I do. I'll note that for example I do have an account with Amazon, but if I want to boycott them what is the direct alternative? How is it possible to avoid buying anything from China? I don't use Starbucks though if that makes you happy.
[quote=Northwind said]So do you boycott Trek (or Pivot, pick either)? Shimano? Cane Creek? Or moving away from trademarks, how about Chris King?
Why should I boycott any of those? Which of them has attempted to enforce dodgy patents and trademarks by going after little guys who can't afford to defend a legitimate case?
[quote=Northwind said]That is a pretty ridiculous comparison- it's not ignoring one because there's others, it's about obsessing about a relatively one when there's others that are worse. Perspective, in other words, rather than arbitrarily picking one thing to be furious about because it's on the internet.
However you like to put it, it is classic whataboutery.
Im not too fussed about a lot of issues in the world like baby milk in China etc etc, i cant do squat about them.
But this issue feels closer to home and I hope Specialized suffer as a business because of it. Its just bad practice to do what they are doing.
i am more annoyed at them and Fuji, registering the rights to the Roubaix name, that is just totally ridiculous, the same with Epic,
I am showing my support by buying a Roubaix cafe t-shirt, mainly because I like how it looks, but hopefully the guy might get enough money to fight the case.
but Specialized are just a crap company and with in my opinion crap bikes, Ive never liked them.
I think the uproar about this was completely predictable: the cycling community is sensitive to the plight of the LBS - particularly half-decent ones (as Cafe Roubaix seems to be).
Specialized should understand the cycling community - and that should inform their corporate conduct.
How much do Specialized invest in "brand perception" each year, or over the last 5 years? How much do they spend sponsoring events so that they are viewed positively by the consumer? Their lawyers have just essentially flushed that down the toilet.
or more concisely:
Specialized can go eat a bag of dicks
Maybe I'm biased cos I own a Specialized but I'm struggling to muster up outrage over this. Is it really that big a deal if matey has to change the name of his shop?
I know very little about road racing and had heard of the name Roubaix from the Specialized bikes long before I knew it was a race.
As above I suspect if people really looked into it there are probably a lot of other things that cycling companies do that are more shady than this. Anyone bothered to find out about employee conditions in bike factories for instance? I know I haven't, so I'm not going to get on this particular bandwagon.
However you like to put it, it is classic whataboutery.
I'm not sure about that - it's not trying to connect two completely unrelated things. There are definitely bandwagons with certain brands that get tarnished as evil (e.g. Monsanto) and others that completely get away with similar/worse stuff - it's not unreasonably to ask people to try and think critically about this.
I've never heard anyone talk about boycotting bike brands that are totally crap with warranty issues. You generally only hear really good stuff about Specialized warranty, so who's more evil - the bike company that regularly screws over customers but doesn't aggressively enforce copyright protection, or the bike company that aggressively enforces copyright protection but looks after its customers really well?
As ever in life - things aren't as black and white as some people imagine them to be.
[quote=grum said]I know very little about road racing and had heard of the name Roubaix from the Specialized bikes long before I knew it was a race.
I imagine most of the outrage is coming from those people for whom the opposite is true. The question has to be if potential purchasers of a road bike really haven't heard of the race as claimed in http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn74079612&docId=UNC20080104091159#docIndex=4&page=19 (go to page 19 - direct link doesn't seem to work) what the value of the Trademark actually is, and why the bullies didn't just call their bike something else arbitrary like "Ribber" which would at least be easier for the ignorant to pronounce? I'd suggest that the very fact they've chosen that for the name of the bike rather than some other nearby French town like Cambrai disproves the claim in the trademark application.
[quote=grum said]I've never heard anyone talk about boycotting bike brands that are totally crap to deal with for warranty issues.
I've seen plenty of that, so maybe you aren't the best person to provide observational evidence.
I note that what they're doing is trademark protection, not copyright protection (there being a significant difference in terms of what value they've added), and like most legal actions by Specialized would almost certainly fail if tested properly by a court - they're simply relying on having the deepest pockets for lawyers and frightening off the smaller party due to the cost of the litigation.
Most people in America could barely point to France on a map - I reckon amongst the potential customers for the bike only a tiny fraction will know about Paris-Roubaix.
I'm not exactly pro their stance - but it seems to be getting blown way out of proportion.
If it wasn't for precious roadies thinking they are nobly guarding the 'soul of cycling' and sticking it to the man at the same time I doubt there would be such a fuss. 😉
I've seen plenty of that, so maybe you aren't the best person to provide observational evidence.
I've seen individuals who've had issues saying they will boycott the brand in future - I don't think I've ever seen lots of other people with no direct stake jumping on the bandwagon?
[quote=grum said]Most people in America could barely point to France on a map - I reckon amongst the potential customers for the bike only a tiny fraction will know about Paris-Roubaix.
In which case why choose a name which is so awkward to pronounce for such ignorant people? Surely that is losing them sales? You do realise that customers for the bike aren't typical Americans/Canadians - they are after all not all that cheap, so to purchase one implies a certain amount of commitment to the sport.
How about potential customers of the shop? Are you telling me that he also chose it randomly?
Good to see the real 'owners' of the trademark aren't a bunch of cockdickers:
Indeed, [runs off to google Fuji Bikes}
Maybe I'm biased cos I own a Specialized but I'm struggling to muster up outrage over this. Is it really that big a deal if matey has to change the name of his shop?
It's going to mean a lot to him as far as money out of the door is concerned, a new sign, new ads, website, etc. Probably not a lot of money but enough to make a big hole in his earnings for the year.
That is good news wall eater.
I just bought a tee shirt from him.
That should be rare in a few weeks after he is forced to change the shop name and all the other merchandise etc.
I will wear it with pride and next time I pass the Specialized concept store in Chester, I'll be sure to pop in.
EDIT but not buy anything
Much ado about nothing IMO. The fella who opened the shop was either incredibly naïve and didn’t even do a cursory trademark check before branding. Or he did the check, knew Spesh held the trademark and took the gamble that he would get away with it. He hasn’t, and now he’s crying about it on social media. He could easily have contacted the TM holder in advance and avoided all of this hastle but he chose not to. I honestly don't see how Specialized are being painted as the big bad wolf here.
What impact would one fatal incident resulting from a catastrophic failure of a Café Roubaix wheel or bike have on Spesh sales?
If you were sat around the Specialized board room table would you take that gamble?