What’s the difference and why is it potentially ‘softer’ now?

hard – leave the EU, leave the free trade area, no deals on trade, totally separate WTO applies = economically bad

Soft- still in customs union and able to free trade with them so not much change or an arrangement or ETA or some sort of deal where we are in but out

May wants hard [ no deal is better than a bad deal – its not] but many Tory Mps want a soft Brexit so its harder for her to command them to do this as its easier to defeat her.

I think the hard brexiters are the minority of tories so god knows why she went that way tbh

IIRC only ken clarke voted against article 50 for the tories

DUP is against hard brexit, so are some tories so could frustrate the issue, and the tories don’t have a majority in the house of commons. Labour have gained 29 more seats in the commons so also have a large influence on decisions.

hard – nobody really knows what this means, but it is probably bad
soft – nobody really knows what this means, but it might not be as bad

Brexit, hard brexit and soft brexit all mean different things to different people and that’s a big part of the problem.

whilst they may not be exact terms like hot or cold we also do know what they mean

The BBC keep saying the DUP want a Hard Brexit, but we know they want a soft border with Eire.

, but we know they want a soft border with Eire

And eire is EU, catch 22!

Teresa wants it hard, I think the DUP prefer a semi.

Something to do with whether you can use soldiers or not?

And eire is EU, catch 22!

When this plays out in parliament I’m getting popcorn.

The BBC keep saying the DUP want a Hard Brexit, but we know they want a soft border with Eire

then they are confused idiots

I though they wanted free trade within ireland but out of the EU – like most brexies they have not really fully thought it through

I dont see how it can work unless the uk is in or there will just be shit loads of smuggling across a porous border

DUP are probably angling for a united ireland in the U.K. Not that it might cause any issues.

Soft = what remain votwrs want, basically as close to being an eu member as possible
Hard = what most Leavers want, as few ties with EU as possibke, zero budhet contribution, as broad as possible free trade deal, no freedom of movement

OP its far from clear if last nights results make a hard or soft Brexit more likely. The EU are rightly converned as they are not sure if the people they are negotiating wirh will have the aurhority to agree any deal. Bit like UK bot knowing if all 27 EU countries will agree to the EU comissions position

Nobody in Ireland wants the return of a hard border. Nobody.

Mays hard Brexit is ****ed!

Personally I think, as it stands, she’d struggle to get a bill through proposing slight changes to parking regulations

what most Leavers want

Honestly I’m yet to see any real consistency of what leave voters want. There’s a large range of options with a good deal of incompatibility. The only common theme was leave the EU without any agreement on what that departure would look like.

Some, curiously thought it would result in a greater sense of community within their village as neighbours hardly know each other any more. Not sure how that’d come about.

what remain votwrs want

Errr no, I’d wager most want to remain in the EU. No soft Brexit involved.

Soft = what remain votwrs want,

No it isn’t. Remainers – I can’t believe I’m actually having to type this out – want to remain. Clue’s in the name, really.

grumpysculler – Member
hard – nobody really knows what this means, but it is probably bad
soft – nobody really knows what this means, but it might not be as bad

end the thread!

seosamh77 – Member

grumpysculler – Member
hard – nobody really knows what this means, but it is probably bad
soft – nobody really knows what this means, but it might not be as bad

end the thread! [/quote]

How about looking into me crystal ball? 😆

Hard is basically playing hardball as the yanks call it, it doesn’t mean WTO rules per-se but it means us going to the EU chest puffed out and saying “we’re one of the biggest economies in the world and have a stranglehold on some aspects of finance and banking so we’re out of free movement, out of open boarders and we’re not paying to access the freemarket and if we don’t get access you’ll lose as much as we do”. It’s risky because the EU would be in direct competition with the UK and we may end up in a bidding war on tax rates to keep our finance industry, also the EU won’t want to make it look like leaving the union is a good thing.

Soft is seen as some as basically the same as Norway – so no voice in EU, but accepting its rules and paying a big lump of money to stay in the free market in exchange for some more freedom over free movement of labour.

Both are worse than the deal we have now on any economic level.

Soft = what remain votwrs want

I wouldn’t mind betting most remainers want to remain.

Hard / soft Brexit aren’t discrete things. It’s like saying “do you want a hot or a cold shower?”, it’s a sliding scale.

Hard Brexit is essentially getting rid of anything to do with the EU. Freedom of trade, freedom of movement, all that jazz. It’s potentially crashing out of the EU with nothing but it’s ok because we’ve struck up a fantastic trade agreement with Peru. This is the Brexit favoured by newspaper owners, overseas millionaires and people who would refuse to drink Halal tap water. This is your shower set at 100’C and claiming that it’s what everyone wanted all along, with a risk that we won’t actually have a shower at all and stink all day.

Soft Brexit is basically leaving the EU as a formality but trying to retain as many of the benefits we already had. It’s handing in your membership at the golf club but still expecting to be able to rock up and play for free on Sunday, only without all those pesky rules that stop you from mountain-biking down the fairway and having a barbecue on the green of the 9th hole. This is the Brexit favoured by Leave apologist Remainers who have resigned themselves to the notion that we have to leave because that’s just the way it is and are now on damage limitation, and by those Leavers who know how to use an apostrophe correctly.

Remain is presented as a binary “do nothing” option. Retain the status quo. Do the ice bucket challenge. But, to my mind this should be viewed as a Hard Remain. And really, it pleases no-one.

Yet if there is a Hard Remain then there must also be a Soft Remain. We stay in the EU but look at why people think that a 100’C shower is preferable to one that’s a bit chilly. The reasons most people wanted to Leave are now well understood, and they’re almost all things that we can resolve internally as a country. We can shore up immigration legislation by exercising powers that we already have but don’t use; we can invest more in the NHS; and so on.

Soft Leave and Soft Remain are really the only options most people want. Both are ways we might have a nice warm shower, which is surely what the vast majority of people want. But it does rather raise the question: if we can do all this right now, why are we actually still leaving?

Oh yeah. “The people have spoken.”

binners – Member
Nobody in Ireland wants the return of a hard border. Nobody.

Mays hard Brexit is ****ed!

Personally I think, as it stands, she’d struggle to get a bill through proposing slight changes to parking regulations

This, and I’m overjoyed.

I’m still waiting for all those who voted “leave” to do just that.. leave. Plenty of South American countries with links to the Failed German occupation of Europe will accept you all..

Trott off.

Question is, do you need to be willing to threaten/risk/take a hard brexit in order to successfully negotiate a soft brexit

most of us saw the ‘hard brexit’ as exactly that, a negotiating position – sitting at the table without an established BATNA would be utterly foolish, wherever you decide to settle your walkaway point.

Still so very bitter and twisted aren’t you bikebouy. Did you donate to Remain, did you deliver leaflets, did you man the (2 boys and a dog) Remain stand in Southampton High Street ?

Remainers don’t have the option of Remaining. Soft Brexit is the very best they can hope for. Anything else is a fantasy, Corbyn is a (not so) closet Leaver who wanted A50 triggered on fhe 24th of June 2016. Even a Labour Government would not reverse Brexit.

Remainers don’t have the option of Remaining.

In the current political climate it’s unlikely, sure, but the option is there if anyone is prepared to take it.

I don’t believe for a second May wanted a hard brexit. If she did then there would be no need for negotiations at all and no need to go through the pretence and that is what the hard brexiteers in her party wanted, what she was fighting against and the whole reason for calling the snap election in the first place. May had to perform a delicate balancing act – she had to put up a tough front to the EU negotiators that she was prepared to envolk the ‘nuclear option’ of walking away with a hard brexit (no deal is better than a good deal), but obviously try to some how convey to the British people she was actually trying for the best possible deal i.e. the cake and eat it scenario, full and free access to the market, customs union, no freedom of movement etc. She failed to achieve that balance.

It is not a negotiation if you are not prepared to walk away, that is your ultimate ‘threat’ and what negotiations are all about. The first rule of negotiation is that both parties have to want to reach a win-win deal. And the second rule is that you need to be prepared to walk away if you don’t get a win-win deal – or at least give the impression you are prepared to walk away. If you’re not prepared to walk away you havn’t got the initiative over to the other side. That car salesman is not going to give you a penny off the price of that car if he doesn’t think for a second you’re not prepared to walk away if you don’t get what you want. It’s a game of bluff and counter bluff and having to constantly refer back to parliament removes our ability to bluff.

This hung parliament is more likely to cement a hard brexit. Now that May doesn’t have the mandate she wanted we will be negotiating with our strategy out in the open and visible with the negotiators not empowered to agree or make any decisions and revert everything to parliament in which she has lost credibility. Our position will be open to the EU negotiators while we won’t have a clue what their position is. So we’ve lost before we’ve even begun. A decent soft brexit deal was always going to be near impossibility anyway because the EU will want to punish us and make an example of us, so we were only ever in a position of ‘giving it a jolly good try’. But now there is no try. A ‘good’ deal will never be reached the EU will offer us a deal they know we can never accept and not budge from that position (basically what they did with Cameron pre-pre-refurendum) the negotiations will stall and we’ll time out and drop out of the EU under a hard brexit.

I suspect the hard line brexiteers are quite happy with the situation. It has played right into their hands.

A decent soft brexit deal was always going to be near impossibility anyway because the EU will want to punish us and make an example of us, so we were only ever in a position of ‘giving it a jolly good try’.

It’s not really about “punishing” us, but making an example of us certainly.

The big problem with a “cake and eat it” Brexit is that it sets a precedence. It’s in the EU’s best interest not to give us an attractive deal because then the other 27 countries will all go “hey, that looks great, why don’t we do that too?” The EU will want us to either remain or do very badly because any other outcome is potentially catastrophic for them.

I don’t believe for a second May wanted a hard brexit (snip)

Interesting argument but I don’t believe for a second that there was that much planning. Literally everything about Brexit post-result has been a farce. Piss up/brewery etc. If there’s a cunning plan behind all of that then I’ll be very surprised.

Remainers don’t have the option of Remaining

It only needs a swing of a couple of percentage points for the nation to be backing remain. A harsh winter could take care of that.

Hard = what most Leavers want, as few ties with EU as possibke, zero budhet contribution, as broad as possible free trade deal, no freedom of movement

‘Leavers’ = crypto/neo-nazi’s, swivel eyed loons, you know like the ones that were on the news with swaztika tattoos before the referendum and brutally murdered Joe Cox. Type that has diffuculty spelling…. 😉

Leavers, they’re aren’t all like that (despite what the main mouthbreathing trump apoligists on here would make you think).

I was promised a red white and blue Brexit, feel like I’ve been sold down the river 😆

Does Brexit still mean Brexit, is it still no deal is better than a bad deal?

Poor brexies I think they can only handle simple soundbites, it was always going to be tough on them,

Leaving the EU turns out to be really complicated, who knew?

😉

The Brexit no-one wanted…

1 of the most bizarre aspects of the UK’s current direction is that none of the Brexit Leadership expected this hard brexit. Looking back prior to the referendum, there were 2 schools of thought from Brexit leaders, and this drove 90% of their thinking:

We would stay in the single market in a Norway style model
We’d use our trade deficit to force a free trade deal

The Brexit no-one wanted

And the Brexiteers are left shouting down their own Internet Echo Chamber with no one else listening to thier viewpoint.

Whodathunkit.

most of us saw the ‘hard brexit’ as exactly that, a negotiating position

I don’t believe you.

jambalaya – Member

Soft = what remain votwrs want, basically as close to being an eu member as possible
Hard = what most Leavers want, as few ties with EU as possibke, zero budhet contribution, as broad as possible free trade deal, no freedom of movement

Jamba efficiently makes the democratic case for soft brexit

They are the DUP, that is a tautology

Unless Scotland leaves the UK and goes back in to the EU.
We need more people in this country anyway so I’m sure we’d happily accept people from down south who wanted to stay in the EU. They’re probably on the more intelligent side (see the leave/remain percentages against educational background) and probably not sociopaths (not mental anti-EU tories – who might be clever but are … I dunno. mental?). Exactly they kind of people we’d need

No (we’re not buying a used car). Next question…

brexit is so much more than single market vs WTO…that hardly scratches the surface.