So, this Scottish Independence thing Cameron's banging on about...

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So, this Scottish Independence thing Cameron's banging on about...

323 posts & 70 voices | Started 4 months ago by derekrides | Latest reply from wrecker

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derekrides - Member

Would it be good or bad news for us?
If the jocks vote yes, is that going to mean visa's to ride up there?

On a more serious note could they even afford to go it alone?

Seems like an interesting subject to chat about I noticed a couple of Jock riders post on here, I wonder what they think?

Personally I hate it that we appear to be subsidising the free education thing, it really galls me having to pay for my kids to go through Uni, then again Divide and Rule where have I heard that recently...

On a political note I guess it won't do the Tories any harm, dumping a load of Labour MP's seats.

Posted 4 months ago #
ohnohesback - Member

Why only give the scots a say? As an englishman I would welcome the opportunity to be able to vote to expel the scots from the union and the english body politic.

Posted 4 months ago #
Markie - Member

Even if (big if!) Scotland were to become independent, I very much doubt visas would be needed. I doubt it would matter much to England if thy left, and while it would take some time for things to settle I'm sure they could afford it. They'd probably lose their free education, mind...

And +1 to the idea of giving England a referendum on the Union!

Posted 4 months ago #
piedi di formaggio - Member

How would the financial side of things work?

Would an independant Scotland receive now money from Westminster? Would they have you raise their own funds via their own taxation? Would the price of independance be higher taxes?
Would it become unattractive for, say, an English company to have operations north of the border?

Posted 4 months ago #
oldnpastit - Member

We kept on having wars between the Scots and the English until the act of union. I assume that would start up again, so yes, a visa would be required.

And if caught cycling anywhere north of Fort William you would almost certainly be shot as a spy.

Or turned into specialty haggis.

Posted 4 months ago #
BoardinBob - Member

Seems like an interesting subject to chat about I noticed a couple of Jock riders post on here, I wonder what they think?

We think you're an absolute arse for referring to us as "jocks"

Posted 4 months ago #
clubber - Member

Is everyone trolling TJ? - from the topics that seem to have been posted over the weekend, it looks like it's TJ-baiting of the highest order.

It's not very nice. I think he needs a break. TJ, please leave it alone.

derekrides - Member
Would it be good or bad news for us?

Bad IMO but only on the basis that I think we're better trying to work to our similarities rather than trying to divide people on differences. In most ways really, I suspect very few people would notice any significant difference to their lives.

If the jocks vote yes, is that going to mean visa's to ride up there?

No. Same as travelling to other EU countries

On a more serious note could they even afford to go it alone?

Yes, exactly how well though depends on the exact details (oil ownership, etc)

Personally I hate it that we appear to be subsidising the free education thing, it really galls me having to pay for my kids to go through Uni, then again Divide and Rule where have I heard that recently...

Troll! It's never as simple as that.

On a political note I guess it won't do the Tories any harm, dumping a load of Labour MP's seats.

Nah, politicians of all flavours love power, they'll never shrink their influence willingly.

Posted 4 months ago #
teef - Member

I reckon Alex Salmond will bankrupt Scotland within 5 years of independence. Spending huge amount on "National Investments" like roads, bridges, education, healthcare, etc - The Scots would be wise to restrain his grandiose schemes by rejecting independence.

Posted 4 months ago #
CaptainFlashheart - Member

Calling Salmond's bluff. Brave, or foolish? I'm not too sure at this stage.

Posted 4 months ago #
don simon - Member

I'd say give them independence on the single condition of enforced repatriation.

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

I was thinking of posting on this

The SNP have in their manifesto a obligation to have a referendum towards the end of their term. Cameron is threatening to force a referendum earlier than that and that he would set the question. Is he so dim as to be unable to see what a boost that would give the SNP? Really everytime he opens his mouth on Scotland the SNP gain support and so does independence.

Scotland's Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon accused Mr Cameron of "a blatant attempt to interfere" in a decision that should be for the Scottish government and Scottish people.

"It's the attachment of conditions that gives the game away - this is Westminster trying to interfere," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"Perhaps I should be relaxed about that because the more a Tory government tries to interfere in Scottish democracy then I suspect the greater the support for independence will be, but there is a key issue of democratic principle here.

"The SNP was elected on a clear prospectus and it's right that now that we have the mandate we can proceed on that basis."

The SNP would prefer a straight yes / no referendum but a load of folk want the "devo max" federal option to be considered so they might be pushed into having that on the ballot paper.

Two points to the independence finance argument. if you believe in independence for Scotland on a philosophical level it does not matter how impoverished Scotland would be. Self determination is all. However cash flows out of Scotland into England so most commentators believe Scotland would be better off without having to support England.

Reasons why Scotland would be better off independent. No foreign adventurism / wars and no expensive nuclear power or deterrent. NO wasted money on such nonsense as foundation hospitals and city academies, no massive austerity cuts damaging the economy.

Scotland's economy remains in surplus as it has been for a long time. No deficit here, no national debt being created in Scotland.

Cameron is posturing here for his own party. I cannot believe he is so dim as to give Salmond - the best political operator in the UK such an easy open goal as to interfere in a referendum on Scottish independence

Posted 4 months ago #
bencooper - Member

There's something incredibly ironic about Cameron (who couldn't get a majority under an electoral system especially designed to give majorities) trying to dictate terms to Salmond (who got a majority under a system especially designed to prevent majorities).

Who on earth does he think he is?

Cameron's father-in-law is one of the largest absentee landlords in Scotland.

Posted 4 months ago #
ivantate - Member

We woulld only have to go an bail them out in a few years so I can't see the point.

Posted 4 months ago #
IanMunro - Member

TJ, I read it somewhat differently as some quite clever politicking to put Alex Salmond on his back foot.

The SNP would prefer a straight yes / no referendum but a load of folk want the "devo max" federal option to be considered so they might be pushed into having that on the ballot paper.

With the 3 option system, would it mean that if one option gained 34% of the vote and the other two 32%, that option would be chosen to represent the views of the nation?

Posted 4 months ago #
downshep - Member

Cameron is the best thing to happen to the SNP since Salmond's landslide.

Posted 4 months ago #
ohnohesback - Member

There's something incredibly ironic about Cameron (who couldn't get a majority under an electoral system especially designed to give majorities) trying to dictate terms to Salmond (who got a majority under a system especially designed to prevent majorities).

Who on earth does he think he is?

The same upper-middle class toff who dares to tell the poor that they are a burden on society.

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Ian - that would not work - it would need to be a 50+ % vote for one option - It would have to be a two stage question or two votes.

salmond is rubbing his hands with glee at the interference from westminster and froma tory government I am sure. It allows him to point out interference from Westminster and to play the anti tory card.

Camerons problem is he has no expertise in Scottish politics amongst his cronies and does not understand the issues I believe

Posted 4 months ago #
IanMunro - Member

Thanks for that TJ, I was wondering about the process.

Posted 4 months ago #
teamhurtmore - Member

TJ (honest questions here, no baiting!)

On the timeline - I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

How would taxation work? Is AS proposing Scottish corporation taxes for example and the power to set them up unilaterally. If so what would happen with RBS say? Wouldn't they just carry on arbitraging different tax rates?

I was intrigued by BBC news yesterday night saying that DC was taking a gamble (as I though it was the opposite) because it would be seen as a size 12 sassenach boot trying to stamp on Scotland.

ok - one bit of baiting, he can do this as long as the racism over Uni fees continues. I would like my son/s to benefit from a bit of Scottish education.

[edit - bit of a x post on the AS motivation bit. But can anti-Tory feeling get any worse in Scotland? DC should still probably call AS's bluff)

Posted 4 months ago #
binners - Member

Scottish independence? Hmmmmmmmm Three words:

"Arc of Prosperity". What was that again? Ahhhhhh yes: the regulatory framework of Iceland, with the taxation regime of Ireland? Mr Salmonds preferred economic policy. Sounds like a winner right now doesn't it?

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

Posted 4 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

And +1 to the idea of giving England a referendum on the Union!

aye you so love the union that you do want to give the other members of the union a say just England...and some say the english have an arrogant attitude to the union and the other countries in it

i Heard the interview above and she made a good point. Devolution is like a divorce both lots dont have to agree for a divorce to occur and a TORY [ how many MPS in the uk parliament are scottish? meddling can only possibly make things worse......still he is as arrogant as many of the english on this issue...let them do what they want...after all you also hate the EU meddling in soverign affairs [ you dont seem keen on all unions do you ....supreme hypocrisy about self determination for Tories and Unionists witha dollop of arrogance thrown in...oh the ironing.

I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

yes but SNP wont win the vote but Dave forcing them may just anger enough Scots to vote for it so very risky ...or he wants to make it easier to rule the rest ..will no one rid mid of this troublesome priest?? I would go for arrogance though every time with dave but then again I would

Posted 4 months ago #
ohnohesback - Member

Those few years we will give us the time to sow minefields near Hadrian's Wall...

Posted 4 months ago #
derekrides - Member

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

+1 on this view.

Did anyone see that programme where they walled them all back in?

Posted 4 months ago #
ohnohesback - Member

It was film; Doomsday.

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

[quote]teamhurtmore - Member

TJ (honest questions here, no baiting!)

On the timeline - I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

There is no obvious majority for independence in Scotland so to some extend Salmond wants to hang on as long as he can so he can run on his record and compare it to Camerons record. DC may be trying the sdame trap but if he is he is realy ill advised as he is giving Salmond ammunition. The SNP manifesto clearly stated referendum at the end of the parliament so if DC does this he can be painted as interefering in /scottish affairs without a mandate to do so. Worth a good few points to the SNP

How would taxation work? Is AS proposing Scottish corporation taxes for example and the power to set them up unilaterally. If so what would happen with RBS say? Wouldn't they just carry on arbitraging different tax rates?

Salmond is an economist by background and he would need to have this sort of detail out in the public domain. there is no huge detail I have seen on this sort of issue. RBS would have to be changed to be a state bank like the bank of England

I was intrigued by BBC news yesterday night saying that DC was taking a gamble (as I though it was the opposite) because it would be seen as a size 12 sassenach boot trying to stamp on Scotland.

More than a massive gamble IMO - a massive boost to the SNP.

[edit - bit of a x post on the AS motivation bit. But can anti-Tory feeling get any worse in Scotland? DC should still probably call AS's bluff)
Yes - and interventions like this would feed it.

Cameron forcing a yes / no referendum will almost certainly mean a yes vote

Posted 4 months ago #
hels - Member

And it was a crap film too.

Posted 4 months ago #
teamhurtmore - Member

So some scenarios...I guess there could be two votes - a UK wide vote and a Scotland only vote. I assume that the fomer would give greater legitimacy? But what would happen if the Scots vote no to independence, but the rest of the Uk voted in favour? I haven't followed the proposals closely enough to know if this is a theoretical poss or not?

Posted 4 months ago #
Rio - Member

There are too many issues that haven't been worked out for anyone to give an informed view on whether Scottish independence would be a good thing for either side or even possible; taxation, defence, nationality (who's Scottish?) and ownership of assets being just some. I can see Salmond being a canny operator and using this - get a vote, win, say independence can come when certain conditions are met/agreements made and remain pretty much with the status quo almost indefinately whilst claiming victory and blaming Wesminster for independence not actually happening. It also gets over the problem of his party having no reason to exist if Scotland becomes independent.

Posted 4 months ago #
piedi di formaggio - Member

RBS would have to be changed to be a state bank like the bank of England

But how would that work or even be possible with the UK government owning over 80% at the moment?

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

What relevance would an England vote have? its about self determination. the whole idea of a vote in England / wales / northern ireland on scottish independence is daft Note the UK is more than Scotland and England

would you allow a UK vote to kick the Falklands out?

Posted 4 months ago #
binners - Member

I do have to say that Alex Salmond is the shrewdest, not to mention the most opportunist, politician in Britain. By a country bloody mile! He'll run rings around Cameron. As he has done with everyone else. He's clever enough not to actually want a yes vote, despite saying he does. As this would mean an end to the inflammatory rhetoric and posturing, and putting his money where his mouth is instead. TRhis would mean implementing the utter twoddle he's been over-promising for years.

Like the Lib Dems 2 years ago - He knows he can't deliver what he's promised. But doesn't bank on ever having too! If he gets independence expect a Lib-Dem-Tuition-fees style screaming U-turn every other day! As the funding evaporates

Posted 4 months ago #
teamhurtmore - Member

Thanks TJ - in that case, I reckon DC should actually take a gamble and call AS's bluff. He is getting too easy a ride, time for him to be tested properly perhaps. When all the facts are put on the table (is that too much to ask?) most Scots will probably lay aside the Braveheart BS and recognise that they are on balance better off as part of the Union. But at least let that have a say!! It would be interesting to watch. Plus I have 12-18 months before Uni fees becomes an issue (he says selfishly!!!).

I do not think that RBS could be transformed from a global (?) corporate and investment bank into a Central Bank for Scotland though?????

Posted 4 months ago #
teamhurtmore - Member

Is AS really that shrewd? Or is it a case of in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. I think he has been lucky that events have overtaken other political parties and have allowed his policies to escape detailed scrutiny.

Great on populism but is he good on detail. Let's see an opportunity for this to be really tested.

Posted 4 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

aye you so love the union that you do want to give the other members of the union a say just England...and some say the english have an arrogant attitude to the union and the other countries in it

i Heard the interview above and she made a good point. Devolution is like a divorce both lots dont have to agree for a divorce to occur

So it's patriotic for scotland to divorce the oppressive england, but arrogant for england to hold the same view?

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Scotland would need a central bank and RBS is the obvious basis to create one from

Salmond is getting an easy ride for sure. All the other parties in Scotland have new inexperienced leaders and are thrashing about for an identity while being saddled with third rate politicians.

~Salmond is the best political operator in the UK by a long long way - he will run rings round Cameron as he has done round everyone in holyrood. and all UK Pms Edit - yes he really is that shrewd - and a good grasp of detail as well.

It would really be stupid for Cameron to force the issue tho - its really would be a huge boost to the pro independence campaign.

Posted 4 months ago #