Hello and welcome to Hi-Fitrackwrld.

I suggest you go and listen to these, or their siblings. There is no comparison with Bose, but let your ears work it out. 🙂

Small REL Sub.

http://rel.net/products/serie-t/t-5/

Small KEF Uni-Q speakers.

http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/q_series/fact_sheets/Bookshelf/Q100/index.html

I very much doubt you will be disappointed. There is no waffle here, find a local dealer of these speakers and give them a listen. You need a small, clean sounding amplifier as-well, but this is a bit beyond my current timescale for answering your question.

I very much look forward to hearing how you found the experience

GfS

There’s a lot of insistence up there^ that hi-fi must be “lifelike”. Despite spending a few years of my life getting quite enthusiastic (but clearly no expert) about hi-fi, I never really understood this.

it’s like tv’s isn’t it – you know what skin and grass look like and you can tell a tv that has better color rendition and therefore looks more real.

Sony Trinatrons used to rule at this, whereas Phillips and others just produced a facsimile of what it should look like.

Same with hifi’s, you know what an acoustic guitar sounds like, what a piano sounds like, what a voice sounds like (better if you are familiar with the voice, obviously) so you can tell the system that has better reproduction of transients and timbres.

Obviously engineered recordings are a problem, so you take several recordings and work for a median. Using electronic music to judge a hifi is not a good idea, obviously.

Well at the risk off being accused of many crimes…..

I’m really glad that we ditched the hi fi and went multi channel, with small speakers.

Whilst its true that it isn’t as good at playing albums as the similalry priced seperates it replaced it is much better for tv and films.

The tone of this thread is quite odd with the implication that we are clealry stupids to choose small speakers

I have listened to prety good hi fi and yes its lovely. I use to be quite jealous of brother in laws system. Our hi fi was fine for music but poor for film and tv, vocals were really lost. His was way better on film and better on music

Now our budget home hi fi competes well on Film and in our room loosing the speakers has been great.

Our lowly system is a basic Onkyo reviever and Boston Acoustic XS speaker package. £400 with cables

Some on here will tell you that I would be lucky to tell whether i was listening to ABBA or Bach on such a system. But I love it.

I think the main limitation is the seperation of our front stereo pair, but the problem there is room shape

Same with hifi’s, you know what an acoustic guitar sounds like, what a piano sounds like, what a voice sounds like (better if you are familiar with the voice, obviously) so you can tell the system that has better reproduction of transients and timbres.

But that’s only relevant for acoustic music. Fine if that’s all you listen to and maybe audiophiles change their musical leanings as a result of having a good hi-fi. You don’t know what an electric guitar sounds like when run through such and such an amp that has been tweaked to sound a certain way before then being played with a violin bow, but Led Zeppelin had a go at that. what then is your frame of reference for “lifelike”? Without that frame of reference what sounds “good” is totally subjective.

I’ve done it myself; I dabbled with jazz for a while because it was great at showing how good/bad my hi fi was. i had a frame of reference to what i thought the instruments should sound like, but one day I woke up to the fact that its not really my cup of musical tea 😆

Using electronic music to judge a hifi is not a good idea, obviously

I can’t agree. If that’s what you listen to it is exactly the right music to use to judge a hi fi, good or bad.

Anyway, this is a massive tangent from the OP. I think what I was getting at is for the OP to ignore the people saying Bose are rubbish and try for himself.

we’ve got the Boston Soundware XS SE in the sitting room for music duty running off a squeezebox. Sure they aren’t as good as a massive pair of floorstanders; but they provide a pretty decent sound. I did go for dual subs though (one of each stereo channel) which helps with the previously mentioned directionality of bass above 100hz

Horses for courses. losing big speakers and going for smaller wall mounted ones meant that the seating layout could be changed and that’s meant that we’re far more likely to sit and listen to music rather than gravitate to the tv.

Would Monitor audio’s Bronze BX2s be too big? If not listen to them or something like the KEFs up above. I’ve gone back to boring old stereo prefering the sound from a couple of quality speakers to lots of average ones.

Bose adverts always amuse me. They show you the things and play you the “glorious” sound that is of course relayed to you by whatever you already have. The ad is bass boosted to sound great on crap speakers but on nice speakers it sounds middle bass boomy – a bit like Bose sound systems.

Some music sounds better on cheaper systems.

I read somewhere once that one producer used to use a cheap boombox for final mix, or a tranny radio, based on the premise that as that was how most music was listened to, if it sounded good there, it should sound good anywhere.
Not sure I follow that logic…
Anyway, I listen to all my music at home through an A/V system, Yamaha amp and Sony sub/satellite speakers, about £1000-worth when I bought it. Sounds fine to me, but, and here’s the important bit, I never use it in 5.1 mode*. That’s switched out, and I only ever use the front pair with the sub. I can hear plenty of subtlety in well recorded acoustic music, as well as more complex stuff.
Unless you’re a golden-eared, hifi god, for most of the people buying a decent surround system, music reproduction will be more than adequate, so long as the surround function is switched out, and bloody sound-processing as well.
An Onkyo or Yamaha amp, from about £3-500, and some quality satellites, like KEF or MS, with a complementary sub, will sound fine.
*For music. For TV and film, it’s switched back in.

This is exactly what you don’t want (my hi-fi earlier today):

😛

I read somewhere once that one producer used to use a cheap boombox for final mix, or a tranny radio, based on the premise that as that was how most music was listened to, if it sounded good there, it should sound good anywhere.

I’d be amazed to come across any producer who doesn’t check their mixes before mastering on at least one cheap system!

I like the philosophical stuff on electronic music

When you play an electric guitar on your hifi thats the first time that sound has ever been a sound wave….

Upto then its only ever a jiggle in some electrons. Or may be a row of pits, which decribe the jiggle

I’ve got these in my home cinema setup. Not HiFi, but a fraction of the Bose price and very unobtrusive (which was also my main driver)
Probably superceded now, but worth a listen.

The tone of this thread is quite odd with the implication that we are clealry stupids to choose small speakers

no – that tone is only that choosing those Bose speakers would be silly as they are too small to reproduce the frequencies down to the point where a subwoofer could take over. Plus Bose engineer them to sound impressive, so people buy them in the show room and only later find out how unbalanced they are.

I recommended some satellites with 5inch cones, and other satellites were recommended.

There was one comment about a sub/satellites never being as good, but that doesn’t have to be the case at all, it is just that integration is easier with a floorstander.

But that’s only relevant for acoustic music.

…

I can’t agree.

the point was that we are more familiar with how acoustic instruments should sound, whereas with electronic music it is harder to know.

But ultimately you should use a mix of everything.

I had a guy come round to my house with some old LS3/5a to check how they sounded against mine and some of those Stirlings I mentioned.

Playing Santana and the like made them sound superior to mine, but putting something like radiohead on showed them up – because of their age they had developed a 1Khz peak which emphasised the midrange, so certain things, like acoustic music, sounded great – but they were no longer balanced enough to play all forms of music well.

In the far east such drifted LS3/5as fetch stupid money, although people don’t realise the reason why they think they sound better.

I would try to ignore any opinions that are too polarized either way, especially where Bose is concerned.

We have two music systems: a “proper” hifi (Linn Sondek, Exposure amp, AE speakers on stands) in the sitting room – that’s for sitting down and listening to music.

For just generally having music on in our main living area though, we have a laptop / amp / Bose setup. The Bose speakers (Acoustimass 5) are actually very good at what they do. No, they don’t sound as good as proper hifi speakers but then they are a fraction of the size and very discrete. The “sub” on the Bose is actually a pair of mid range drivers in a tuned enclosure. In practice you really can put it pretty much anywhere in the room (you can only start to hear sound coming from it when you’re about 2-3 feet away).

One thing to bear in mind with “proper” hifi speakers: placement is crucial – most “bookshelf” speakers (ironically) don’t sound good close to a wall.

If you’re looking for suggestions for your whole system, what we have now works really well. I didn’t see the point in an expensive music server setup when we already have a laptop handy. So we use Spotify / internet radio on the laptop, bluetooth to send the sound wirelessly to an amp (actually a really old Quad 33/303) and then into the Bose’s. Works great and is almost invisible. Honestly, if you’re not bothered about having a “proper hifi”, they sound fine.

I wonder if the Bose amplifiers are a bit sucky? Maybe those Quads improve the sound significantly.

Regarding the placement of speakers against a wall, the front ports on the KEFs above should help, but I guess sealed enclosures will sound better. They tend to have a rather addictive taught sound too.

I’m surprised no-one’s mentioned Q Acoustics,

They get very good reviews and are likely more neutral than Bose, without being as demanding to live with as standmounters. This is a 5.1, but I think you can get the sub and sats for 2.1

That said, I still think you should go listen to the KEF/REL system above 😉

PS: THX – I think you are wrong about one thing, though – you really would hear the difference between a music system and a hifi…really they are both for different things…but sitting and listening to a well recorded album on a good hifi with a nice single malt is a very pleasant way to end the day 🙂

money no object… hidden speakers perhaps…
null
null

otherwise id choose the Q acoustics or the Jamo’s mentioned earlier in the threads

Given your source I wouldn’t be getting my knickers in a twist about the speakers 😉 If you were using a high end player through a high end DAC into a high end amp (probably pre-power set up) and all connected using posh bits of wire then it is worth getting worried.

Otherwise get something that is okay and enjoy it for what it is.

On the producing thing – we used to take the masters out and put them in my car stereo to make sure the sound was ok in a rubbish set up, this wasn’t uncommon practice either. Given most music is listened to on rubbish systems it is kinda important to produce to that and to your market. Given we weren’t recording orchestral masterpieces, more goth/industrial LOUD nonsense it kinda made sense to us 😉

Oh – and those Q Accoustics look good. I was contemplating changing my 5.1 KEF system (floorstanders front, bookshelf rears and cube sub) for something similar, though was thinking that with a couple of wee munchkins something more like a soundbar/tv mounted extension speakers in a 2.1 format may make a lot more sense 😉 And also get more use since I can’t turn the volume up to 11 these days!

‘Audiophiles’ always remind me of religious fundamentalists; a narrow-minded ‘belief’ in something esoteric, and an inability to cope with ideas beyond their ideological threshold. They’ll evangelise ’til they’re blue in the face, and you just have to wait until they’re done, smile politely and say ‘well I don’t share your beliefs if it’s all the same’. They don’t like that bit.

This has been a helpful thread though; Bose = overpriced and overhyped maybe, and I should try to listen to alternatives; small ‘proper’ speakers and a sub may be better for sound quality than ‘home theatre’ set ups; Kef seem to be popular, as do Acoustic Energy.

No one has mentioned Sonos…..?

I’ve ruled out Sonos on the basis that a) other Airplay speakers by Bose (!) and B+W sounded better in a showroom (hardly sicentific, but gave me a reasonable idea of their relative merits), b) that it’s expensive for what it is, and c) that it isn’t as flexible a system as Airplay.

B&W MT-50?

Under consideration. Expensive. I know B+W make good speakers though.

This is exactly what you don’t want

You’re not wrong! 😆 Are you doing the sound for a Pink Floyd gig or something?

Given your source I wouldn’t be getting my knickers in a twist about the speakers

I’m not, quite frankly, although others seem to be. Just wanted a bit of opinion/advice on something that would suit my needs. And I have a slightly clearer picture now than before, so it’s been fruitful.

While the Airport Express has wonderful functionality, it’s Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC) is a bit on the cheap side. If your chosen amplifier has a digital in port, use it. If not, buy a basic DAC as well.

Yes, even for compressed .aac files…

An interesting point. The music will be ripped lossless to the NAS. I may try a DAC to see how much ‘improvement’ it offers, but again, it may be getting into the realms of ‘hi-fi’ again.

money no object… hidden speakers perhaps…

Would be a near-perfect solution. No indication of price though.

The wine bar local to work has those artacoustic panels.

I think most of the recommendations are from people not wanting you to waste your money on junk.

Maybe they have already been down that road and are trying to pass on some experience.

Maybe they have already been down that road and are trying to pass on some experience.

Maybe. Or maybe they’re just trying to sound clever /superior.

I would like some input from people with actual experience of various systems, if possible.

The wine bar local to work has those artacoustic panels.

Do they sound any good? Or are they really just for show?

thx1138 – Member

‘Audiophiles’ always remind me of religious fundamentalists; a narrow-minded ‘belief’ in something esoteric, and an inability to cope with ideas beyond their ideological threshold. They’ll evangelise ’til they’re blue in the face, and you just have to wait until they’re done, smile politely and say ‘well I don’t share your beliefs if it’s all the same’. They don’t like that bit.

I’ve made this analogy myself, several times, but it only applies to
a certain percentage of gullible idoits who value the gear, or a certain philosophy peddled by gear manufacturers, above the music itself:
It’s a lack of self belief, or confidence, which they hope to cure with the snake oil sold by charlatans.

I like music, first of all – that’s the starting point.

And here’s where the analogy falls down:
Good kit does help me get more out of the music I listen too.

I used to be a musician myself, many, many years ago, so I know how an orchestra is supposed to sound – & it annoys me when I hear a perfecly well recorded French Horn that sounds like someone playing Reveille on a bent kazoo.

I like the voices I listen too to sound like the people who sang on the track.

You don’t have to spend a fortune, but if you want to hear recorded music that bears a passing resemblance to how it’s supposed to sound, you can.
I don’t read reviews, I just use my ears.
It seems to be working so far.

If you can tell the difference between watching a film on a worn out old VHS tape an the same thing on BluRay then you will be able to hear the difference between good & bad HiFi.

Cost often has very little to do with it, btw.
The nicest amplifier I’ve ever heard was £400 new and cost me £200 second hand.
It does a little as possible to the signal apart from amplify it, and it sounds wonderful.
The best speakers I’ve ever heard were made in the 1950’s.
They cost a fortune these days, because they still make music sound like music, not an artificial reproduction.

I have heard small NXT panels and they sounds great.

I have AE speakers, they’re ace – stunning transient response and clarity. Mine are 109’s, but smaller more modern models should continue the trend.

I have also owned KEF and also small Tannoy speakers. The KEFs are a cut above.

REL – Used a Strata 3 for years -stunning. Real Sub-bass machine, but complement the system they are used in due to good design and high-level inputs bringing the Amp’s sound to the sub.

Q-Acoustics – I have only read-about, sorry [but I am going to the Bristol show next weekend, so maybe I’ll hear them there].

Good luck.

I have recently discovered that my wifes idea of living room friendly speakers is not a sub/sat system, but speakers that look good. She is perfectly happy with a pair of floorstanders but they have to look like they belong in a grown up living room, not the retro den of a 40 year old hankering back to his student days.

I put up with a horrible sounding sub/sat system (with cables hidden in the wall) for 5 years before finding this out.

Make sure you are solving the compromise the right way before shelling out on something you might not be happy with 🙂

Was in a similar situation recently thx1138. Live in quite a small place and wanted to lessen the amount of space that stereo kit took up and replace my flaky Netgear music streaming box and pile of separates.

I ended up getting one of these (Marantz CR-603)

hooked up to two of these mounted on the wall (Cambridge Audio Minx Min20)

and one of these (the wee one on the left)

The Min20 speakers and sub sound great to me, whether it’s music, films or games.

Love the Marantz unit. It streams music from my Lacie NAS over ethernet, has DAB/internet radio, phono inputs for my turntable and a digital optical in from a PS3. Does Airplay with a free firmware upgrade (though I’ve not played with that much) and does a really good job with an iPod attached and controlled from the remote.

It also has outputs for a second set of speakers, which I’ve wired up under the floorboards to a pair of Missions that live in the kitchen. I think the Mission ‘proper’ speakers probably have the edge for listening to music over the Minxes split sub/satellite setup, but not by much.

Do they sound any good? Or are they really just for show?

couldn’t tell – it was in a noisy bar environment.

Maybe. Or maybe they’re just trying to sound clever /superior.

I don’t see much of that, nobody has suggested anything super expensive or made by Naim (…)

As above though, depending on budget, you may be able to get some nice floorstanders – as they will look less bitty than a satellites and a sub.

If your budget stretching to them I was quite impressed with how well PMC FB1s handled the bass for a smaller room.

Spendor do some lovely speakers as well, can’t vouch for their bass control in a smaller room though.

An interesting point. The music will be ripped lossless to the NAS. I may try a DAC to see how much ‘improvement’ it offers, but again, it may be getting into the realms of ‘hi-fi’ again

why not rip it at the lowest/smallest bitrate/compression and save some space? dont bother with a standalone dac either, after all it’s not like you are an audiophile.
🙄

I’ve made this analogy myself, several times, but it only applies to
a certain percentage of gullible idoits who value the gear, or a certain philosophy peddled by gear manufacturers, above the music itself:
It’s a lack of self belief, or confidence, which they hope to cure with the snake oil sold by charlatans.

Just about sums it up for me.

I like music, first of all – that’s the starting point.

Exactly.

Good kit does help me get more out of the music I listen too.

I agree. The same can be said for cycling, driving, photography and a whole host of other activities we enjoy. However, there is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns, and a point at which an individual can feel they need not venture. I don’t enjoy music any less than any audiophile; I just don’t share their belief in esoteric equipment costing loads of money. To me, a system costing less than £1k is fine; I don’t ‘get’ the ‘benefits’ that are apparently offered by systems costing 10s of thousands.

You don’t have to spend a fortune, but if you want to hear recorded music that bears a passing resemblance to how it’s supposed to sound, you can.

Cost often has very little to do with it, btw.

I know this.

I ended up getting one of these (Marantz CR-603)

Thanks debaser; will look into that, and the speakers too.

As above though, depending on budget, you may be able to get some nice floorstanders – as they will look less bitty than a satellites and a sub.

I have already gone through this, several times now. Floorstanders are not an option! 😀

I don’t see much of that

There has been a bit of it. Comments such as this:

why not rip it at the lowest/smallest bitrate/compression and save some space? dont bother with a standalone dac either, after all it’s not like you are an audiophile.

Thanks MrSmith; you’ve been very helpful. Your input to this thread is invaluable. Cheers. 🙄

Congratulations all. You’ve created the snootiest, wankiest, least self-aware, middle class thread ever on STW. And that is pretty bloody fiercely contested!!! Give yourself an additional stroke on the chin, as you cock your head to one side, and thoughtfully put on the Prog Rock of your choice 😆

I bought a pair of Q Acoustics 2010i for a denon mini system. You don’t know me, so my opionion on how they sound is pretty much irrelevant, but I’m happy with them, they sound great to me, they look classy as **** in a deep piano black gloss finish. Plus they come with a pair of white felt gloves so you don’t put your grubby finger marks on them when you’re setting them up you filthy beast. Have you washed you hands?

Have a Sonos faber and Rel 2+1 system for stereo. But in the dining room, where most music is listened to, I have a Klipsch iGroove. For basic reproduction, the Bose will be just fine. A little expensive for what you get, not very neutral, but fine. Nicer speakers are available, Gallo for example, but you won’t go far wrong. The B&W system is also a nicely balanced discrete system.

I’ll probably be switching to a Play 5 or add some small surrounds in time, myself.

binners – Member

Congratulations all. You’ve created the snootiest, wankiest, least self-aware, middle class thread ever on STW. And that is pretty bloody fiercely contested!!! Give yourself an additional stroke on the chins, as you cock your head to one side, and thoughtfully put on the Prog Rock of your choice

I’d rather dance round in my pants to Voodoo Ray or a nice bit of Liszt
if that’s OK?
😀

I might even stick on a bit of Bruckner – he’s the Shaun Ryder of Austrian Romanticism, don’t you know?

That all sounds fine RS. I’ve always found that when worried about sound quality, the answer isn’t more expensive speakers, its more drugs! 😀

Congratulations all. You’ve created the snootiest, wankiest, least self-aware, middle class thread ever on STW.

To which you’ve just added your scintillating insight and no doubt awesome ego. Well done. Give yourself a stoke too.

All I want is to be able to listen to some music etc. 😥

Have a Sonos faber and Rel 2+1 system for stereo. But in the dining room, where most music is listened to, I have a Klipsch iGroove. For basic reproduction, the Bose will be just fine. A little expensive for what you get, not very neutral, but fine. Nicer speakers are available, Gallo for example, but you won’t go far wrong. The B&W system is also a nicely balanced discrete system.

Thanks, TiRed. Seems REL are worth checking out for subs. I’ll try to demo some speakers soon. I suspect there won’t be a quick and easy conclusion to this conundrum.

To which you’ve just added your scintillating insight and no doubt awesome ego. Well done. Give yourself a stoke too.

I’ll give him one for you on Saturday.

Do you have a decent Richer Sounds anywhere near you, btw?
Our local place was really helpful when we wanted to demo some satellite and sub systems.

thx1138, where in north London are you? I have a mate who sells Bose & kef stuff so I may be able to get you some sort of discount (not easy on Bose stuff).
I use Kef eggs with a big old REL Stadium sub to bolster the bass, your welcome to have a listen but I live in herts not London.

Best of luck with your quest 🙂

Do you have a decent Richer Sounds anywhere near you, btw?

Don’t know what they’re like these days, but they were fantastic when I was shopping for a small system about 15+ years ago. Had a listening room with ‘normal’ furnishings and even gave me a cup of tea! I’ll be checking them out for sure. Good gear at good prices.

2unfit2ride

Muswell Hill/Crouch End. Does your friend run a shop?

Good gear at good prices.

Not my favorite store at all – have seen them push stupidly expensive cables at people, etc.

Don’t like the way they seem to drive companies they sell to bankruptcy and then take them over – Gale, Cambridge Audio, etc (same lot as carphone warehouse…)

If anywhere is a center for people reading what-hifi and constantly upgrading kit, this is the place.

Go to a decent hifi store, get some good advice from someone who knows what they are doing and be happy with the kit forever more. Expensive kit bought now but never changed is cheaper than less expensive kit bought now and then upgraded.

But this thread is getting tiring – buy the Bose stuff, what do I care…

As I suggested, try buying it from ebay then you can sell it again without much, if any, loss if you don’t like it.

Same goes with a lot of kit – it’s almost a safer way of demoing kit than a shop as you have the kit in your house with your furnishings/exposed floorboards/etc.

And any demo that’s not in a dedicated room is worthless as you will have background noise and run the system louder than you would at home, plus everything sounds better at higher volume.

Or at least get a home loan/cooling off period on the kit from a shop. Richer Sounds used to do it for a small fee, maybe extended warranty or something.

This place is down the road from you:

http://www.classichifiuk.com/products/

Listening room, appointments only. No shop front because he’s doing some pretty high end stuff. I bought my Q Acoustics from him. Great, personal service, despite the fact I was buying pretty much the cheapest thing he sells.

He does, but not a Hifi shop more home cinima & TV’s.
I would say Turnerguy is spot on with his last advice, it’s what a sensible person should/would do, but then I also understand the want it now perspective that I often fall in to 😉

Cheers.