[Closed] Short road bike Stems?

If you're about to tell me I've wasted my money, I can't be bothered to enter into the argument, unless you can tell me how its relevant to the conversation. It was by cyclefit, and I didn't pay full RRP.

I like the way you all talk as though a professional nationally renown bike fit organisation doesn't know what it was doing.

If they're so awesomez why you questioning it with these bunch of cockends 😛

dirtygirlonabike - Member
Noted - I'll try the short Stem but still have the 100 to go back on if I don't like it/want to be more agressive.
I doubt stem length would make a difference to being more aggressive (confident more likely) being able to ride on the drops 100% of a race would be better (if you can't already - and obviously i don't mean for long climbs)

If you find there's not enough weight on the front, you could try a negative rise stem or dropping your stem a bit? My -17 is slammed too which helps a lot although i'd check with your fitter first before making changes.

Well the change in balance should have put me more over the front, and I previously could ride the drops for an hour but would rise to the tops for a rest on climbs. I've not ridden it in 80mm guise long enough to tell yet.

monkeyfudger - Member

If they're so awesomez why you questioning it with these bunch of cockends

Good questions. I just wasn't sure about "seeing the front hub" and it played on my mind so...

Apologies for confusion I only deal in TT lengths when buying road bikes, the 'actual' frame size isn't that important. Get the TT length that fits, then work everything back from there.

I still think for a person of that height that a sub 100mm stem indicates the wrong size bike. A road bike shouldn't be twitchy, when you are tired and descending at 40mph+ in a bunch stability is important.

Kryton57 - Member
If you're about to tell me I've wasted my money, I can't be bothered to enter into the argument, unless you can tell me how its relevant to the conversation. It was by cyclefit, and I didn't pay full RRP.

If you believe it works for you, then you've not wasted your money. I'm just curious about the price.

While these services can be helpful, I've never felt the need, and would prefer a common sense approach where a rider is encouraged to try things out and thereby empowered, rather than rely on or pay for "look at all the thought/science/numbers we've put into this, it must work!" services. I got a free bike fit a while ago, it came out pretty much spot on to my current set-up.

FWIW I don't believe in 'seeing the front hub', 'knee over pedal' etc, but if folk need reassurance, then I guess they are as good starting points as any.

The classics i hear alot are - ill get a bike fit on one bike and ill transfer the measurements over to my others.

This almost never works.

Let's have a pic of you sitting on the bike then Kryton, at least give the armchair experts something to go with.

Fwiw it was a £99 special. Special bike jig, computers, advice plus my own bike setup done. 3 and a bit hours.

All this talk of top tube lengths between different bike sizes and yet no-one has mentioned seat angle. Genius 😀

Jeez you/people really bother this much?? Are you an Olympic track cyclist?

The front hub thing is a guide, don't get hung up on it. There is also such a variance in flats-to-hood reach on bars that stem is only a piece of the puzzle. I find I spend a lot more time in the drops now I've got quite compact bars with close hoods and a shallow bend.

Saddle relative to frame is independent of eyes, bar and stem as it's about aligning the lower body. Work from the feet up. Apparently my femur length is proportionally long so I tend to need more layback than stock. Medium frames with this tweak fit me better than large stock bikes without, I'm about 5'10" so span both sizes.

As mentioned, frame size is more of a relative thing to the model rather than the olden measure of having a size for your height given compact geo, variance in measuring, brand size bias (Cannondale being big for their size) etc etc.

Get some cheap parts and swap 'em about, measure your performance and compare your results.

Herman Shake - Member
Get some cheap parts and swap 'em about, measure your performance and compare your results.

I'd agree with the experimental approach, an individual is extremely unlikely to be able to find meaningful differences to measure (i.e. isolate other factors).

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

Is the right answer. You had a bike fit to a bike that is too big. At your height, you'd have never heard me go for a 58 in anything. Did the fit mention that your bike is too big? Start with the basics and fir from there. I've seen some dreadful professional fits, including a poor lady who's elbows were locked when on the hoods to the extent she had trouble performing basic maneuvers.

No. Did you read my post where I said despite being a 57 it measures the same as a 56 supersix, Madone and a few others actually?

No. Did you read my post where I said despite being a 57 it measures the same as a 56 supersix, Madone and a few others actually?

Sure about that? Seat angle and top tube lengths all the same? Or top tubes the same length but seat angles different, so in reality completely different sizes?

TiRed - Member

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

56" is fairly big...

Sure about that? Seat angle and top tube lengths all the same? Or top tubes the same length but seat angles different, so in reality completely different sizes?

Well, knock yourselves out over this geo for the 57:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/bianchi-sempre-pro-frame?ti=U2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHM6YmlhbmNoaToxOjQ6YmlhbmNoaQ

Nice bike. I'd have suggested the 55 cm ETT frame and a 110-120mm stem if you are of average proportions. You are only 1cm taller than me and that geometry is not far from the Giant Defy (0.5cm longer ETT, 0.5 degree steeper seat tube so saddle will be 0.5cm further back).

And just for balance, you are all welcome to criticise my position: Medium Giant TCR 55cm top tube, 100mm stem (not 80 or 120; I tried them both), I am 179 cm with absolutely average proportions for a male. Saddle to top of bar drop is 8cm and I am not the most flexible person in the world 😉 . But I did 90 minutes, mainly on the drops during last nights chain gang - still got dropped though 😆

[url= http://britishcyclesport.com/2013/events/imperial-winter-series-1-gallery/attachment/40-4/ ]Side, hoods.[/url]

[url= http://aephotos.co.uk/imp13r7-cat4/h3bb05bd3#h3bb05bd3 ]Front, drops.[/url]

Assume you meant this one as your first pic? The one you've linked to doesn't appear to be you...

[img] ?fit=630%2C800[/img]

Actually I don't think you look like the model of a perfect bike fit, you look like you're out for a bit of a Sunday pootle (nowt wrong with that mind) - very upright, bike looks quite short, elbows straight. That and compression socks are just no. Your helmet's too far back too because of your cap.

Agreed. He needs a bigger frame with a shorter stem.....

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

I'm the same height as the op and ride a large/58 and always change the stem to a 120mm one. We're all different even if our height is the same. If the op is happy and comfy that's all that matters.
p.s
No way could I ride a 80mm stem, my knees would hit the bars all the time, must have very different leg bone lengths to the op.

question for dgoab:

(because I don't understand - no axe to grind)

I have a short torso / arms and long legs so need the short stem. No issues with being unflexible - run a -17 stem and my drop is 8cm, and I'd like more drop but a -25stem looks, well, like my bars are falling off!

A few things

The myth of kops
http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Seat angle is not really critical unless you're basing a bike on top tube alone. What matters is position of saddle relative to BB and position of bars relative to those. Weight distribution on the bike may be important if you go a long way outside of the normal parameters (eg saddle a long way back, very short stem or saddle very forwards with a long stem).

In addition, I suspect that the ideal position that we should aspire to (which will replicate that of the pros most likey) is only ideal if we're trying to go as fast as possible and have the flexibility and body proportions to match. Look at the pro peloton and you'll see most rider adhere fairly well to the long and low stereotype but there are a good few who have positions that differ quite significantly (eg shorter, higher front end) because it suits them better.

Obviously many more recreational riders don't want to admit that they're too fat/inflexible to ride a proper pro position so fall back on their proportions being the reason for the sunday tourer position but equally it is perfectly valid for some others.

Oh and for the long stemmers 🙂

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-your-frame-too-small-andre-kasheskin-has-the-answer

[img] [/img]
(computers photoshopped in)

drug addled rider rides (IIRC) 17cm stem! I thought my 14cm one was long...

EDIT - better pic and details:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/race-tech-tour-down-under-kicks-off-the-pro-equipment-season-for-2013/249495
[img] [/img]

Seat angle is not really critical unless you're basing a bike on top tube alone. What matters is position of saddle relative to BB and position of bars relative to those.

Absolutely. Set the saddle height and setback first and then get the contact points in the right place. Unfortunately (as seen perfectly above) TT length is often seen as the thing that matters most, and without SA it's largely meaningless.

True but to be fair, most bikes are pretty close on ST angle but it's worth checking.

Race face innit 😉 Look at the guy behind suffer! And it's a telephoto lens of course so compresses perspective.

For the TCR, Medium was always the right size. For the Defy, I agonized over size (as it has an ISP to cut) and still went Medium. All of my road bikes and track bike have the same basic pedals to saddle to bars triangle dimensions, but no two bikes have the same geometry or stem, lengths. Once you know these dimension for you, choosing and fitting a new bike is pretty simple. Finding those dimensions however...

pretty close on ST angle

Half a degree for a 74cm BB-to-saddle is 74*2x3.14x*(0.5/360) = 0.65cm. SO thats almost 1.5cm on the saddle rails for every degree change in angle. Same for head tube angle. As already mentined, set your saddle first and don't go on location on the rails of a different bike.

I ride a medium tcr with 80mm stem.. Due to my long legs short torso ... I have raced on tcr for couple of seasons and I haven't died or felt anything remotely twitchy ..

I don't really agree with the idea of all bikes having the same bar/seat/BB positions TiRed - unless they're all for the same purpose.

For example, a track bike has a single handle grip position and you are typically riding faster than on the road. You're also not going to be climbing any hills (other than the banking 🙂 ). In addition, you're not usually going to ride for anywhere near as long as on the road. As such, a more aerodynamic position may be better even if it is a bit less comfortable or powerful.

And then transferring to mtbs - again different position (bars usually higher, shorter) so saddle/BB height may well need to be different given the interplay of muscles around your core and your legs.

Basically my point is that people love the idea that there is a simple formula (KOPs, 92%, bar&hub, elbow+finger, etc) that's right but there isn't and you can't even really apply a good position across bikes. You need to tune to suit. And work on yourself - eg flexibility. That's the bit people really forget about and it's not one that you can spend your way to.

Once you know these dimension for you, choosing and fitting a new bike is pretty simple.

Or if it doesn't really matter to you. I go by feel. I know that I can't really recreate the position from the Madone on the Allez. After a long time on one the other feels a little strange for 2 minutes, then I get used to it.

Personally I'd not bother with a professional bike fit (or a custom frame), but I do understand why people do.

Not sure why some folk things their position is right and others is wrong though.

Mattered to me. Saddle height alone, without fore and aft adjustment for frame geometry can make a big difference. Same height and too far to the rear can over extend the ITB and lead to injury. As I found out the hard way. All my saddles are now located in the same position relative to BB, including the MTB (74cm height, -5cm tip to BB). Bars on the MTB are a little higher and closer. Bars on the track bike are a little lower due to curve - provided I can wrestle the bike of Teen1 and swap stems in time!

I've got stem envy.

Would all of you who fit everything within average bounds please just give it a frigging rest. If you can't see this guy on a bike, you can't judge, you also have no idea of his exact proportions. Furthermore, whilst his bike might not be the ideal size, it might be the nearest he'll get to a reasonable fit with an OTP frame - are you going to criticise the fitters now for not telling him he needs to spend ££££ on a custom frame?!

I'm one of those people that had a bike fit years ago (free with a frame BTW, tightwads/skeptics of STW rejoice!), and actually falls in the 10-15% of the population who fall outside 'the norm' in terms of proportions. Please just save all the ridiculous old school bike-shop style 'glance up and down' sizing maxims for people you can [s]spout your opionons on[/s] expertly advise IN PERSON.

Cheers,

Graham (5'10", riding a 59st/55tt custom frame and a 58cm Cervelo.... with a 100mm stem - ****ing heresy!)

Same height and too far to the rear can over extend the ITB

That's a different saddle position though isn't it? It's only because you're taking horizontal as a datum that you're thinking about it the way you do. What happens if you took your position and rotated it 90 (ish) degrees eg like riding a recumbent? KOPS is meaningless in itself, it's just an approximation of what most people find comfortable or that works.

My point is that adjusting your body position also affects how your muscles in your legs work so having bikes with different body positions will affect the 'ideal' position for your legs. All my bikes have slightly different saddle heights by design.

grahamg, well said that man.

Turns out I have big flexibility issues plus a short torso...short forearms...

[img] [/img]

That's a different saddle position though isn't it?

graham - where's the heresy in a 100mm stem? 😉

Yes, well, obviously so 🙂 As I said, people like to believe that a simple formula (x frame, Y top tube) will give the right position which is approximately right which in itself may well be fine for most.

Thanks Graham.

Not that I'd want to undo everyone's good work but I remembered that yesterday the guy lost his spirit level and we couldn't work out whether the saddle was level or pointed down.

Anyway, I just went to the shed... and remembered I was slipping forward on the way home last night. So, a quick tweek, saddle is level a few minutes ride and guess what, the bar is now in line with the stem on the hoods.... 😀

Whats more I did some tape measureing against my winter bike (a M/L Defy). Oddly without touching it the Defy saddle height and fore/aft is within MM of the altered bike, but with its shorter TT, longer (100mm) stem and deeper hoods to stem is 50mm longer from tip of seat to hoods. Interestingly though, the top of the stem is 30mm high off the floor 'cuase of the HT height and the spacers under the stem.

As someone said up there - it'd be silly to transfer the setup across from the other bike...

80mm is really short. You sure you're sitting right? Try and copy Cancellera/Boonens/Similar postion. Stick your arse out, twist your pelvis forward and you should be able to get really long and low. Some stretches might help. As will a longer and lower stem. It's obvious to see the difference between the way a pro and some amateurs sit on a bike when you look at them. Currently repping about a 16cm saddle/bar drop with a 140mm stem, so it does work.

Saying that, could depend on your pedalling style. I don't drop my heels lots, you look at someone like Froome who drops his heels loads, and his position on the bike is ****ing weird. Sat really up right, and he doesnt seem to use much saddle set back (unlike cancellera)

Two things about the 80mm. First the highly scientific one, I don't see any 80's at races. And two, from a personal view a short stem that doesn't hang over the front is a bitch on real steep climbs, you tend to end up with your hands behind/under your shoulders.

Again on a personal side I'm 5'8", my race bike started with a 110, then a 120 and finally a 130. That also coincided with weight loss, higher flexibility and getting faster.
My cross race bike and trainer are both 55 C-C with 120 stems.

[img] [/img]

Phillipe Gilberts bike which is totally wrong for a mere mortal, he is another guy who likes to ride a smaller frame(as its stiffer)then runs a long seatpost and stem to make it fit.

Within certain boundaries any bike can be made to fit any rider, whether it will ride nicely is another mattter.