Just got back from my first trip over to Long Mynd, and had a scary ish experience down the last down hill on the route – no 9 into Little Stretton if that helps.

Got half way down and was going reasonably quick but due to the steep and lose terrain I was feathering both brakes, then got the the bottom 100 metres or so and both brakes ceased to function, with the rear lever clicking under pressure then going back to the bar.

I sort of threw the bike around and crashed into the gate at the bottom to stop in a rather ungainly fashion, looked down at the brakes and they were both pinging and looking very hot indeed.

Not had any brake fade on any bike or trail since I had Hope C2’s nearly 20 years ago and this has left me slightly concerned about the Tech 3 / E4 suitability for my 110Kg.

I’ve only had them a few months (from new) but they’ve managed a few trips into Wales, round the peaks a couple of times and loads of local rides with no bother and great performance.

The obligatory Strava upload calls the hill I had the problem on ‘Bake your brakes’, so I guess it is rather famous or it. This made me feel a little easier but should I be concerned with this and can anything be done to prevent it?

Staying off the brakes on a hill that steep is not something I’d be comfortable with, and according to the results I’m well into the top half of times so not really mincing down.

Bike is a Ibis mojo SLR with 180mm and 160mm floating Hope rotors, E4 calipers and Tech 3 levers, with red pads (as they came)

Brakes feel fine again now but they haven’t been used in anger since.

What are the thoughts – bigger disks, different pads, different brakes all together? I have Zees on the other bike but prefer Hopes for the modulation.

Or, slow down until I lose weight 😳

Use the brakes alternately or don’t drag them – let the speed build up and brake hard when needed?

Larger rotors for the very minimal weight gain… Sintered pads.

170kgs here with no issues of my v4s with 203 and 180 floating rotors and sintered pads

Stop being such a girly 😀

Go up a rotor size.NOT sintered pads as these generate more heat than organic.
Also…..170kg!!!! Are you twins?

It sounds like the fluid has absorbed water. My experience of Hope is that as they approach their maximum capability for braking (temperature limit), the lever gets progressively firmer as fluid in the system expands, but they don’t stop working. The mechanical advantage at the lever is lost, though.

For it to go back to the bar means that the trapped water boiled off – air is obviously compressible which is why you lost your brakes.

Did you bleed them after fitting? If you used old fluid, this is why you shouldn’t… 😉

Interesting and cheers chaps.

I was expecting the ‘stay off the brakes’ comments and tbh I’d be the first one to suggest the same. Suppose not knowing the route and not really expecting it to be so steep and loose, I went into it too fast and didn’t feel I had the grip to slam on and then alternate brake as I would normally (when I know where the grip is).

Wasn’t in any real danger as I was going relatively slow when they faded completely (could have jumped off if I really had to), just a bit of a shock as I thought brake fade was a thing of the past.

I did cut the hoses and bleed them when fitting, although i used brand new dot 5.1 fluid that had been stood for a day and not shaken before I broke the seal.

Lever feel was good and solid and it now appears to be the same so not sure what happened to the rear lever.

I’ll look into a 203mm disk for the front anyway, and see if the frame accepts 180mm on the back.

Bit of a daft question but, what is actually overheating when brakes fade – is everything essentially buggered and I need new oil, pads and disks, or is it ok again once cooled? As I mentioned initally, it feels ok now but hasn’t been used beyond car park stops since.

I still have C2s. I guess your experience is like mine in that as they get hotter the fluid expands and one needs to slacked the adjusters. For me it is always three times and then fade would start. It’s a handy warning.

I’ve never bothered replacing pads on a bike for that reason. Though I did in a car once, having scared myself.

That brought back memories. 😀

I remember backing the silver top cap adjuster off as the brake binded more and more, until it rubbed and couldn’t be backed off any further.

Think I once managed to twist it right off as it was only held on with a small circlip underneath iirc.

Used to love the C2 brakes for their solid feel though.

I’d definitely be upping your rotors to a 203 and 180. Never had any fade with my Tech 3s with that combo and done plenty of Alpine descents with them. I’m not quite as heavy as you but I’m still a shade over 15 stone geared up

When were they last bled?

If you did actually boil the fluid, and it wasnt old fluid,then refill it with castrol srf. Expensive stuff,but you wont boil it.

Its the only brake fluid that do3snt boil during track days in my caterham.

Ill be replacing whatever is in my e4s with castrol srf when it comes time for a bleed

Bit of a daft question but, what is actually overheating when brakes fade – is everything essentially buggered and I need new oil, pads and disks, or is it ok again once cooled? As I mentioned initally, it feels ok now but hasn’t been used beyond car park stops since.

Pads going to the bars means the fluid is boiling, lack of power but the lever still firm means the pads have over heated.

Reckon you should re bleed the brakes with new fluid and go up to the biggest rotors possible. You’ll need adapters for the bigger rotors both front and rear I’d expect.

Check the lads and see if they’ve glazed over – if so and there’s still loads of material on them then give them a quick sand and go again.

Can you fit finned pads of some description with those brakes to dissipate the heat?

They were last bled about 2 months ago – not had them that long.

From reading above, I’m looking at 203mm rotor for the front, moving the 180 to the back, finned Uberbike pads and some Castol SRF to replace the existing oil.

The post to post 160 to 203mm adaptors are proving to be a bit of a pain, as nobody seems to do them. Uber do but they are not compatable with Hope calipers…doh.

Edit. Think I need Hope mount C for the front, and L for the rear
Mount C-Post Caliper to Post (F-203/R-203)
Mount L-Post Caliper to Post (F-180/R-180)

And no bugger stocks them 😆

+1 for a fluid upgrade. I’m in the middle of doing ours with Motul RBF600. Our Hope tech 3/E4 180/160 didn’t have any bother in Verbier last year while others were boiling or fading.

Don’t get me wrong, they got hot and we had to pull the levers bloody hard, but they always worked. I believe the choice of fluid helped.

DOT 5.1 has a boiling point of 260 degrees centigrade.
More likely to have glazed the pads.

means that the trapped water boiled off

I struggle with this, hydraulic brakes systems are sealed, yes any water within the system will reach temperature that would boil if open to atmosphere however in a sealed hydraulic circuit this cannot happen.

My theory is that the differing expansion rates of the aluminium caliper compared to the stainless steel rotor prevents the required pressure from the caliper onto the rotor, we need finned cast iron calipers!

Bit of a daft question but, what is actually overheating when brakes fade

There is a huge amount of bollocks online about ‘brake fade’ without people knowing what it really is. However julians has it, as far as I know.

Boiling fluid seems improbable, I don’t think I’ve ever come close to that – but it does fit your symptoms. You keep the brake on, it continues to work, then you let it off and some fluid boils to gas which then compresses so you suddenly get nothing. The other kind of fade is as the pads get too hot the material starts to vapourise slightly at the contact with the disc which reduces friction, so they just bite less.

It’s also possible that your pads wore to the point that some air in the reservoir became introduced into the hose. Check your reservoir.

More likely to have glazed the pads.

Yeah but he said the lever came to the bar.

Actually, another possibility is that something wasn’t done up properly when re-assembling. I have had this before – braking on a fairly normal steep descent, the lever suddenly popped in to the bar. Turns out the bleed valve hadn’t been done up tightly, and the first time I squeezed hard enough some fluid squirted out (snigger).

Check the bleed nipple or any other joins for fluid.

Nothing to add but that I love that descent, even managed to sneak into the top 100 on Strava (one of the few places I have)! It definitely earns the name Bake your Brakes for that segment, every time I get to the bottom the rotors are pinging, but I’ve not had problems with fade on SLXs with IceTec pads. Particularly the bottom couple of hundred meters are steep and having to stay off the brakes to hop the drainage ditches means you’re braking harder inbetween I find, in addition it can be really quite loose and gravelly when it’s dry, making it hard not to be constantly feathering the brakes.
Inspired me to go up and ride it tomorrow morning!

Cheers all once again.

Good call Molgrips, as I was giving the levers some real stick at the point they didn’t work very well. However, I don’t think anything was/is loose but will give it a good look over tomorrow and check for oil etc.

At its worst point, the rear brake was offering perhaps 10% stopping power and I squeezed hard to generate more power. It was at this point that the lever sort of snapped as if a sprung loaded cam was being pulled over a high spot – and then it went to the bar with no effort and no extra braking.

I’m not sure if the rear stopped braking at that point as I was at the bottom shortly after.

Jakd5, I’m 965 out of 1820 on the bake your brakes bit, and 757 out of 1812 on the bottom jeeeesus bit – probably as I couldn’t slow down 😆

Had a closer look this morning.

There was a small, very small amount of moisture in the caps of the bleed nipples and both could be done up a fraction using a socket set.

Much more leverage than the ring spanner used in bleeding and only a small amount of force applied for obvious reasons. Suffice to say they won’t get any tighter now without causing thread damage.

Also took the pads out and had a look. Don’t look glazed although they are a bit pitted and the one of the front pads has slight uneven wear / damage to the bottom end. It is slight though.

Took the resevoir caps off, levelled the bike and filled both brakes up.

The only other thing I have done is screw out all the adjusters to minimum as I had the levers quite close and bite point set to my feel. (This was done after the initial bleed)

Now there is no adjustement applied and tbh the brakes feel very good indeed. No squish and a powerfull feel.

Going to go out for a ride round Cannock later and will take it steady for a while. Nothing like the level of braking needed as I tried yesterday but will see if I can give them some stick towards the end of the ride to see what happens.

Still looking to up the front disk and change things about a bit but strugling to think of what actually went wrong yesterday.

A series of pics should be found below if anybody wishes to have a nosey and comment.

Hope after fade

Too late to edit, but the pads are red and I believe organic material if that influences anything.

My money’s on the bleed nipples having been the problem. Pad fade caused by high temperatures made you squeeze the levers extra hard popping a bit of fluid out. Doesn’t take much to affect lever travel.

Report back 🙂

How old are the brakes?
It could be the seals in the master cylinder have failed.
The feel fine when cold but pull back to the bar when they get hot.

I had this happen a few times in the run up to and during the King of the Hill Tweedlove enduro a couple of years ago. I don’t presume to know exactly why it was happening but I changed the pads after the event and switched from a 160 -> 180mm disc on the rear where it was happening.
It hasn’t happened again since, I’m around 100kg and given the evidence (it hasn’t happened again since and I haven’t rebled the brake) makes me think that something is happening with the heat generated at the disc that causes it,either the disc or the pads overheating..

There was a small, very small amount of moisture in the caps of the bleed nipples and both could be done up a fraction using a socket set.

Much more leverage than the ring spanner used in bleeding and only a small amount of force applied for obvious reasons. Suffice to say they won’t get any tighter now without causing thread damage.

Bleed nipples don’t need to be that tight. Just a nip up should suffice. You’ll likely snap the nipple rather than strip any threads

Go up a rotor size.NOT sintered pads as these generate more heat than organic.

Well yes, but they are also a LOT more resistant to fade.

If you’re boiling your lines, you need to replace the oil as you have water ingress. If you put something like Castrol SRF in though, the wet boiling temperature is so ridiculously high – that I doubt you’ll ever even boil old fluid.

Go up a rotor size.NOT sintered pads as these generate more heat than organic.

Well yes, but they are also a LOT more resistant to fade.

If you’re boiling your lines, you need to replace the oil as you have water ingress. If you put something like Castrol SRF in though, the wet boiling temperature is so ridiculously high – that I doubt you’ll ever even boil old fluid.

Go up to 203/180 and run sintereds, purge the brake lines with SRF. Make sure all the seals are okay – but I reckon your issue is old fluid combined with Organics and small rotors. Were you getting fade to begin with and then pulled the lever too hard, like others suggested?

So far I’m not sure what to make of them now. They still work but have started to squeal a bit with no sign of moisture.

Seem to work OK although not really used them in anger as Cannock isn’t exactly steep enough to need to.

Just the last bit to do now. They actually feel a bit like the old shimano brakes when the seals leaked and contaminated the disks and pads – just with no drop in apparent power.

To answer a few questions above, the brakes are only 3 months old so I’d hope seals are still OK.

Yes I know the bleed nipple doesn’t need to be ridiculously tight. It was only a nip I gave it.

They faded at first then a few seconds later the rear lever had its popping moment and back to the bar. Only did this once as I never had the need to squeeze as hard again.

Probably going with pads simply overheating.

Am still going to replace things as said and increase the front.

Waiting for hope to come back to me on where to get the adaptors for 203mm disks as shops don’t list them. Shimano don’t work due to the shape of the caliper.

Thanks all again.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/hope-post-to-post-disc-brake-adaptor/rp-prod13728

Am still going to replace things as said and increase the front.

If you’re going to increase a disk in size, increase the rear as you’ll likely be dragging that the most. 203mm/160 is rarely seen – run 180/180 or 203/180.

Hope are very helpful, give them a call on Tuesday.

Just a thought that crossed my mind last night… upgrading to larger rotors is unlikely to solve your problem if it’s fluid related. While a larger rotor will cool marginally faster than a smaller one, the difference isn’t great because to all intents and purposes the rotor size only increases in one dimension.

The same amount of work is required to stop the bike even if it feels easier, and so the same amount of energy will be dumped into the brake unit and fluid to dissipate.

Unless you bleed the system thoroughly with new fluid, it will happen again.

Home without drama and no problems with brake power or fade – not that I expected it tbh.

Tom, I think you’ve come into the thread late as it was always going to be 203 on the front and the 180 moving to the back 😉

Will also get new finned pads and new oil throughout.

Todays ride was to see if I could pin point anything and because the weather is so good and I’d rather be out 😀

I’d seen those adaptors on CRC Mike but wasnt sure if it is exactly the right one as the description says 203 front and rear when normally it is a size smaller on the rear, and they haven’t got the 160 to 180 rear in.

Have to say a big thanks to everybody who’s taken the time to comment. It is appreciated and welcome, especially if it keeps you awake at night 😉

Will now wait until Hope answer my email with some ordering codes etc as there is no real rush to sort it after today.

Just make sure that your 180 is not a 183 as that will need a slightly different Hope adapter.

Will also get new finned pads and new oil throughout.

Only put the uberbike finned ones on if they are sintered, tbh – going sintered will make the most difference and I’d be inclined to stick with Hope pads.

You’ll also benefit from better wet weather performance.

I haven’t read the whole thread but brake fade means the lever stays firm but the brakes just don’t work. You’ve just overheated the pads.

If the lever comes back to the bar then you’ve boiled the fluid because it’s contaminated with water.

What rockhoper says, its not fade if the lever is coming back to the bars.

Unlikely your boiling the fluid more like air in fluid.

If it was air in The fluid you’d feel it all the time and there would be a spongy feel to them and they’d harden up by pumping the lever. You would have felt this before this ride.

Lever back to the bar can only be two things – loss of fluid via a leak or the fluid has become compressible I.e. Traditional fade. If lost fluid the lever will not recover because you’ve lost fluid, if brake fade the brake will recover once cooled.