Only because we’re used to such heavy, fast cars….. as I said – marketing.

Not generally – why do small city cars sell so well? And they are pretty heavily marketed.

The speeds, weight and size needed for an Urban car are *tiny*

Hmm yes but I still don’t think there is a marketing conspiracy. Yes, average speeds and journey times in London are good for electric cars, but when pepole buy small cars they want and/or need them to be cheap. I don’t think that’s marketing – the inherent concept of value for money that goes way beyond cars will tell people that a small car should be cheaper. So people don’t want to spend £18k on a supermini and it’s not because of marketing.

YES, there has been a kind of conspiracy – by the car manufacturers – to flog us a super-engineered and yet generally inappropriate product.

I still don’t see this. Yes, an Audi A7 is over engineered, but a Hyundai i10 isn’t, and that’s the kind of car that’s positioned as a city car.

You’ll note the Japanese, less in the thrall of the US marketing lifestyle are into small/kei cars.

That’s because of legislation, isn’t it? And a very long cultural tradition of liking small things which I do not for one minute believe is marketing led!

There is a small section of society in London that is rich enough to afford a small electric car, high minded enough to cough up for a tiny two seater instead of a big comfy car, and doesn’t need or want a car for long journeys. Which is why you see way more of them in London than anywhere else.

I still don’t see this. Yes, an Audi A7 is over engineered, but a Hyundai i10 isn’t, and that’s the kind of car that’s positioned as a city car.

Hyundai i10:
Weight: 930-960 Kg
Power: 48-64kw
Dimensions 3.6*1.7*1.5m
Max speed circa 150 KMh

Example technology:
“Era: Immobilizer, chrome radiator grille, dual-color interior, electric power steering, manual AC with heater, power windows and bumpers.
Magna: Central locking, front fog lamps, standard keyless entry, interior illumination, seat back pockets, vanity mirror, rear AC Vents and battery saver.
Sportz: Tilt steering, push button start/stop, cooled glove box, electrically adjustable mirrors, 2-DIN integrated radio+CD+MP3 player, front & rear speakers, aux-in & USB ports and chrome finish.
Asta: Rear defogger, optional driver & passenger airbags, optional ABS, rear spoiler, alloy wheels, leather wrapped steering wheel, 1 GB internal memory for audio, driver seat height adjuster, adjustable rear seat headrests and steering wheel mounted controls”

Looks pretty over-the-top to me for personal transport in a city.

As a comparison, the Twizy an L7e [the absolute heaviest a Quadracycle can be] category is <450 kg <15 KW, AND THAT’S FIRST GENERATION!

why do small city cars sell so well

– have you seen the sales for crossovers recently? Car manufacturers don’t want to sell small hatchbacks, there’s no profit in them.

I do not for one minute believe is marketing led!

Each year, cars are getting larger, stronger and quicker. This is due to the continuation of the use of one car as suitable for all forms of personal transport, over all distances, across all types of roads/speeds for all journey types mixing/colliding with all sorts of vehicles along the way.

Take a look at small car adverts – this one picked at random:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL3nJT9FDr8[/video]

What has that got to do with actual city transport?

The reality is this is aspirational marketing, playing on power and speed to justify the continuation of the status-quo.

Many many years ago it became apparent that the car as we know it was headed to a dead end. The huge companies have continued along that path and refused to invest in alternative technology that could have meant the common car could be very different.

Lastly – 18 grand is hugely expensive, of course. As I have said [and cited] many times it is the most important factor. The Twizy [the only Quadracycle that actually sells in this country) is £8k [plus £45/mo battery lease]. Only now that there’s actually investment in BEVs are the battery prices going down.

Last word about the Twizy – Top Gear likes it [now] – as I said, finally these actually small cars are getting market acceptance. Finally.

It could all have been so different…..

Tesla have a shop in the Westfield shopping centre in Shepherd’s Bush. Walked past one lots, but never really spent the time to have a proper look around it.

Saw a moving one at Ascot on Saturday. Nice enough but somewhat lost against the Rolls Royces and Ferraris….

Each year, cars are getting larger, stronger and quicker.

Each model of each car does – then they bring in a new smaller one.

Toyota iQ anyone? Smart? Etc etc etc etc. If car manufacturers really didn’t want us to buy small cars they’d push the prices up and stop marketing them.

What has that got to do with actual city transport?

Why keep banging on about city transport? Most people go outside their cities from time to time, and don’t want the faff of hiring cars. If there’s anyone who can afford an electric car and never drives outside the city, then great. But in a city you have public transport anyway (especially in London) and distances are small so the committed eco person will be cycling or taking the bus/tube.

It’s not as simple as you are making out.. you really are waving the conspiracy card now. If I wanted cheap local only personal transport, and didn’t wantt to cycle, I’d be on a scooter. A Twizy still doens’t make sense for a lot of people.

And finally, most people who want the option of travelling decent distances, which is why range is the thing that almost everyone cites when electric cars come up.

Do you own a Twizy, gfs?

What has that got to do with actual city transport?

Why keep banging on about city transport? Most people go outside their cities from time to time, and don’t want the faff of hiring cars.

Up in the north a lot of ‘city’ journeys actually involve an amount of faster roads, as the cities are small and its all inter-town/city journeys. In my office of 90 over half the staff have a section of their commute on dual carriageway or motorway, so they mostly own bigger cars, despite the total journey often being less than 10miles.

Its the way most of the UK has been built, suburbs, out-of-town locations etc. People dont want to be driving lightweight ‘flimsy’ cars on even short sections of 70mph road. And its the same reason electric cars are slow to catch, 10mile each way to work, 10mile to drop/pickup kids somewhere, nip to the big supermarket on other side of town is another 7. Thats half your range gone and people worry that if they forget to charge then they will be stuck. Ranges are going up, but people need to see other people managing before they move over themselves.

Agreed. The argument for Twizys in London would make sense if it didn’t already have such a fantastic public transport network and many people still have nowhere to park even a Twizy.

Thats half your range gone

More, maybe even most of it, if you factor in the drop in range when it’s cold.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/24/the-cold-truth-icy-temps-can-slash-an-electric-cars-range-by-more-than-half/

I wanted a twizy but a low mileage secondhand smart convertible made a much more cheaper an practical proposition…

Twizy got a battery lease that worked out the same as the petrol I’d use and no bike rack and if feeling brave I could actually drive the smart down a motorway 🙂

you really are waving the conspiracy card now

I don’t quite see what’s odd about this. “Conspiracy” might be too strong a word, but, it is huge corporations protecting their interests. There’s nothing unusual about that. What I am saying is that the marketing and the infrastructure have, hand in hand, developed a totally car-centric society, with the car sold as the lifestyle accessory that enables everything.

Why keep banging on about city transport

Because the point I am making is that the reason the Tesla is the first BEV to sell well is because it can compete against the huge and heavy cars most people use. Humans weigh around 50-100 kg and we’re using vehicles of 800-2000 kg to transport them – this has happened through the continuation of the design requirements for totally unnecessary specifications (based on how most people actually use their cars)

Toyota iQ anyone? Smart?

All capable of speeds greatly in excess of anything needed in a city, weighing around 2x the amount needed for transporting people over the distances and speeds common in cities. And those are the smallest cars sold and sold as city cars!

But in a city you have public transport anyway (especially in London) and distances are small so the committed eco person will be cycling or taking the bus/tube.

Most people take the tube because because London is overcrowded and the alternatives are slower. If cars were smaller and or electric this wouldn’t be as much of a problem.

don’t want the faff of hiring cars

And if we had a developed public transportation ecosystem with good prices and such that wouldn’t be an issue. The obsession with cars has made it all very uncompetitive and difficult.

I’d be on a scooter.

And how many adults do you see on them despite being a largely more appropriate form of transport for one person and a bag of documents/food for a day’s work? Not so many, they’re not as safe as an enclosed vehicle or as dry or warm etc.

Further – what do most 17y/o males want for their birthday – driving lessons! Why would that be I wonder?

What is the most popular form of transport in less wealthy countries? The scooter/bemo. Why is this – less exposure to aspirational marketing and the fact that small vehicles make more sense.

And finally, most people who want the option of travelling decent distances, which is why range is the thing that almost everyone cites when electric cars come up.

And if the car was not central to our transport, then this would be much less of an issue. After all, people park at airports all the time – it’s just a matter of the status quo.

If we had developed a diverse transport system, if we hadn’t placed all the demands on the car then it would work so much better, for everyone.

AND/OR

If the development of the electric car had been anywhere near as concerted as that of the ICE car, we’d have solved these issues years ago.

Here’s a electric Porsche from 1898!
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG2-LNbNnYQ[/video]

Here’s a hybrid one from a year or so later:

I’m not saying that there was a conspiracy, but that we have spent the last 120 years developing the wrong technology, and we’ve also applied it to every form of personal transport to the great detriment of society in general. And I am saying that this has changed our entire cognitive map [eg US road casualties circa 30,000/year – seen as normal]. So now, trying to introduce electric cars is a PITA!

It’s all going out of the window anyway.

http://orfe.princeton.edu/~alaink/SmartDrivingCars/PDFs/MorganStanley%20040715ReportJonas.pdf

http://jalopnik.com/understand-this-chart-and-understand-the-future-of-the-1696224233

Lastly I’m saying that modern cars have grown in complexity, power and size because of the system that has been created [above] and the best way to justify/market that has been “power and speed is good” and “you need all these gizmos”

I’m going to have to bow out of this – as you can see I have written lots.

I’ll get back to you when I have it all organised as my thesis.

No I don’t own a Twizy, I’m trying to sell our car at the moment and it’s a Twingo Mk.2

OK One last EDIT – warming the batteries up isn’t hard. It’s just bad design, like the US-centric bike designs that die in the mud.

Molgrips – you seem good at pointing out the negatives of EVs but what’s the alternative? Carry on burning oil and destroying the environment? There are challenges to be overcome with electric cars, but if Elon Musk can put rockets in space and win contracts from NASA I have trust that he’s the man to do it. The US already has a vast number of charging points and they’re coming to the UK too. For too long we’ve been investing in the wrong technology that’s unsustainable and dirty. The example of the Ford Ecoboost above is the culmination of over 100 years of refinement. Teslas have only been around for a few years and they already blow most cars out of the water, so with a more mature charging infrastructure just think what’s possible. And of course the automotive industry is trying to protect it’s own interests and profit, that’s normal for big business.

I’m not anti electric car, I’m just pointing out gfs’s JHJ levels of rigorous argument 🙂 too many holes in that lot to respond to on my phone.

The solution is well integrated and subsidised public transport and a readjustment of attitude, not a different kind of personal private transport. Electric cars could fill the remaining rural journeys, or maybe hydrogen

Enjoyed this about electric cars and one of the “not main” parts of the country…

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXe1hBvlylw[/video]

Not really sure what you’re finding so many holes in, molgrips, but come back with useful information backed up with sources of repute and I’ll be grateful for your input.

I’ll watch the video above later, busy now.

Hydrogen is still a fossil fuel and is nowhere near as safe or efficient as electricity. Also you’d need to fill up at a station rather than at home.

Lets face it, we think it’s “strange” to buy and EV that has a potential daily range limitation of around 80miles and yet no blinks an eyelid as they drive a 2 tonne 4×4 300 yards to the shop to buy a small loaf of bread………..

Very, very soon indeed that will change. Anyone who drives a car in the UK can see the huge burden being put on our (limited) transport infrastructure (rush hr is now pretty much 12hrs a day!)

So, make the most of your current incredible personal transport freedom. It can’t last…………

Had to take some plates over to our printers in our other unit today, and there was a black Tesla P85 parked outside a vehicle parts supplier, so had a good shufti at it. Nice clean lines, back end reminds me very much of an Aston Martin, but with four doors. Inside was a bit strange; huge touch-screen in the centre of the dash is eye-catching, but oddest was the centre console: no transmission tunnel, and no gear-stick or handbrake, looked very empty!

http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/manufacturing-lithium-ion-battery-half-cost-0623

Good news everyone!

I’ve been watching this for a while. A couple of things:

A) Scotland has committed to carbon free road transport by 2050. Recognising that electric vehicles are expensive they government is facilitating car clubs so that people have access to electric cars without the expense of owning them. Car clubs in Scotland info.

B) The investment in battery technology is happing – Tesla is competing (like this) with Bollore (who set up the Autolib electric car club in Paris which has taken an estimated 30,000 cars off Paris streets)

C) The internal combustion engine won the race for 90 years because of Ford and mass production (Americans propagating German technology). Back in at the dawn of the car, Brits pioneered steam, the US pioneered electric and the Germans went for petrol. In my opinion.

I think there’s only one direction of travel now, and that’s away from fossil fuel.

Thanks for that, Clover [not least because I suspect that info will end up in my work 🙂 ]

Here’s two more things:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/15/06/28/2144258/samsung-nanotech-breakthrough-nearly-doubles-li-ion-battery-capacity

And

For molgrips:

NB – the Amazon was big at 1100 kg

[Quote]I’d be feeling a lot more positive about Tesla if they weren’t so expensive.[\quote]
I think Tesla have been smart. Leverage the upper price scale of their first car towards the luxury market and develop the excitement in the marketplace, install their own infrastructure, and develop/refine their tech. With a smaller car coming, it will be far cheaper and probably do rather well.
You can drive new York to LA using super charger stations at zero recharge cost! That’s part of what you pay for. They are also developing battery swap locations where you get your whole battery bank swapped in less time than it takes to fill a tank with petrol. You will also likely be able to power your home by your car and your car by your solar home at some point.
Expensive model s.. Yes, but you’re not just buying the car, you’re buying into elon musks vision, which is pretty damn good.

Hydrogen is still a fossil fuel and is nowhere near as safe or efficient as electricity. Also you’d need to fill up at a station rather than at home.

Hydrogen is not a fossil fuel.

Hydrogen can be produced on a small or large scale. Anything from a fuel cell the size of your computer printer to a factory.

Hydrogen is usually produced from water using electricity which can be from renewable sources.

Hydrogen is an inflamable liquid/gas but no more dangerous than say LPG.

I visited a house in Freiburg, Germany which runs on hydrogen produced by a fuel cell powered by solar panels. The hydrogen is then stored on site in a big tank with enough capacity to cover long cloudy periods.

Had to google that ‘twizy’ thing. Jeez that thing hit all the branches when it fell out of the ugly tree. But you know what really spoils it; only one seat. Ridiculous for the footprint.

only one seat

Two, though getting into the back one is only for the young and supple.

And once again that proves my point about marketing/taste over use. Form over function is madness for such a vehicle.

V8, Google the Strati, it’s a 3d printed body for the Twizy running gear, if you really want you can have that vehicle look just about however you want.