Road wheels - build my own or buy some factory ones

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Road wheels - build my own or buy some factory ones

60 posts & 24 voices | Started 6 months ago by davidtaylforth | Latest reply from davidtaylforth

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davidtaylforth - Member

Looking to get some new wheels (eventually)

Currently use Planet X model B's (20/24 spoke) which are good for the price, the rear flexes a bit when climbing though.

Dont really have a clue what to get though, I want something fairly reliable and as light as I can get for plodding/smashing it round the lake district.

Dunno about budget, around £300 I'd say.

On the list are:

Shimano RS80 (about 1500g)
Funworks on Stan Alpha Rims (1390g) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/288g-Super-light-sokin-6-Pawl-Road-Bike-Hubs-24-28-Shimano-/190567188499?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5eb08813

Or build up some Stans Alphas on some of these hubs: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/288g-Super-light-sokin-6-Pawl-Road-Bike-Hubs-24-28-Shimano-/190567188499?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5eb08813

Im guessing something like 24/28 spokes would make them a bit stiffer than my current wheels. But what spoke pattern would I use? 2 cross? 3 cross? Also, what spokes are good value/worth using?

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Sdeals for spokes. I'd in for alphas...I'm heavier that you and mine are ok. I'd get a light front hub and I std shimano or campag rear unless they'll get light use...for spares availability...tho others have had good results witother brands.

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Oh and 3 cross.

Posted 6 months ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Thanks Al. How are the Alpha rims lasting? They are listed as weighing 350g which seems alot lighter than most other alloy road rims (like open pros)

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Good but you need them well built and loctite'd. I'm 80kg.

I'd do planet x tub rims and use stan's in them if I was buying now.

Posted 6 months ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Are those the Planet X carbon rims? I'm not sure whether I fancy carbon rims, although they seem incredibly light. Braking in the wet would be horrendous on them?

Posted 6 months ago #
reggiegasket - Member

I've got three pairs of decent handbuilts - Tune/Hope hubs, Open Pros, Ambrosio Excellights etc. and they've been excellent - reliable, good weight, serviceable and so on but my Dura Ace 7850SLs are a better ride. Stiffer, more direct yet still supple. For performance I think factories have got the edge these days.

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Sorry reggie you're not comparing like with like.

Open pro and excellight aren't in the same league.

Posted 6 months ago #
samuri - Member

modern wheels with their silly 20/24 spoke patterns are horrible. So flexy under load. I have a pair pon my road bike now and I don't like them at all. Terribly flexy, ping away all the time when I'm pedalling hard.

Give me a bog standard Ultegra hub on an open pro rim, 3 cross, every time.

Last forever.

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Im guessing something like 24/28 spokes would make them a bit stiffer than my current wheels. But what spoke pattern would I use? 2 cross? 3 cross? Also, what spokes are good value/worth using?

Don't underestimate the importance of rim profile when it comes to wheel stifness. Your Model B's have a 30mm deep section rim, which itself is responsible for some of the stifness despite the low spoke count. A rim such as the Stans Alpha is a much lower profile, and will inherently be flexier on its own (it also weighs a lot less, and 9/10 times lighter = flexier), so I'd be looking at a minimum of 32 spokes on the back and 28 on the front unless you're really light. My road bike has got Mavic CXP22's on it, 24 front and 28 back, and I'm about 12 stone, and the wheels have been retrued and tensioned twice now and they're still a flexy mess! Oh, and when you're down to 24 spokes on a wheel, you can't do 3 cross lacing any more... It's 2 cross or less (I'd do radial on front wheel anyway most likely).

Aero spokes make a big difference on a road bike too, and are well worth it for the performance benefit they bring.

With everything I've said above in mind, much as it pains me as a seasoned wheel builder, you're far better off buying off the shelf these days as you just get so much more for your money...

Planet X Have FSA Vision Trimax Pro's for £249 down from £499, don't know much about them but they're 1521g the pair, have 30mm deep rims, aero spokes etc. They look very good for the money. They also have Ultegra 6700 tubeless wheels for the same money, little bit heavier, but obviously proven Shimano reliability.

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

modern wheels with their silly 20/24 spoke patterns are horrible. So flexy under load. I have a pair pon my road bike now and I don't like them at all. Terribly flexy, ping away all the time when I'm pedalling hard.

Give me a bog standard Ultegra hub on an open pro rim, 3 cross, every time.

Last forever.

You're gonna make me cry... A few years ago, when I decided to give road riding a go first time round, I found myself some NOS Dura Ace 7700 hubs cheap (about £70 the pair inc skewers) on ebay, and built them 3x onto Open Pro's with DT comp spokes. Rims were about £30 apiece, and spokes about 40p each iirc too.

Didn't get on with road riding at my first foray for some reason, so split the bike and sold everything off, including the wheels which had done less than 200 miles.

Fast forward a few years, prices for everything (especially hubs, spokes and rims) has shot up loads and I'm giving road riding another go and enjoying it. My bike, a Giant Defy, is a brilliant bit of kit, but the factory wheels are utter poo (despite the Mavic rims). God how I wish I still had those Dura Ace's on Open Pro's, as even a set of 105's on Open Pro's now would cost me silly money to build!

Posted 6 months ago #
Bez - Member

I went with building my own - Shimano hubs, light and low profile rims, radial everywhere except 3x on the rear drive side.

Options open up massively once you realise that (a) the weight saving of a few spokes over a 32 spoke build is too small to care about (in fact unless you're spending big bucks it's more than offset by the extra rim weight you'll end up with), (b) weight savings at the hub are only interesting on the kitchen scales and (c) most "aero" rims aren't, they just give you rotating weight and in theory a less supple ride.

I hate factory wheels because if/when something goes wrong they're an epic ballache. Build your own and you're using standard parts and you can build in as much durability as you like.

That said, I'm on the large side. If you're a wee slip of a lad you're less likely to be breaking spokes on factory wheels.

Posted 6 months ago #
smell_it - Member

I won a pair of the FSA vision trimax wheels just over a year ago, and popped them on my training bike and they have seen about 4000 trouble free miles since. They seem pretty good all rounder, 1543 grams on my scales, pretty stiff, hold speed well and spin up quickly with good pick up. Mine are still running smooth and wobble free, so they have been pretty durable for me, but I am under 70kg. More impressive imo than the DT mon chasserals they replaced, and climb just aswell. I race on Reynolds 46'ss or mavic r-sys sl's, so that's my comparison. At their rrp I'm not sure what they would offer against their rivals at that price, but Planet x are selling them at half price at the moment for £250, which makes them seem a positive bargain to me.

Posted 6 months ago #
Bez - Member

"even a set of 105's on Open Pro's now would cost me silly money to build!"

I built mine with 105s and Excellights (which cost more than Open Pros) and mostly DT Revs, in black, and they were under £200 even after having to get the spokes sent from Germany. Silver Comps probably would have saved about £30 IIRC.

Shop around

Posted 6 months ago #
samuri - Member

I'd be amazed if you can't build your own for under 200 quid still.

I hope not anyway, I'm about to replace the horrible bendy Kysantheriuminumiums on my road bike with some professionally built,standard three cross wheels that will be as hard as nails and last longer than I do.

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

alphas = 22mm deep. Open pros the same. So rim depth is clearly not all

mboy: any evidence re. aero spokes? of and I'm concerned re. your wheelbuilder - CXP22s are solid.

yes sorry 2 x is good for 24H.

Mine do flex a bit, but it's not bothering me yet. I suspect 32H rear would help a lot. They feel great though (this may be down to the tyres)

Does anyone still believe there are performance benefits in dura ace over 105 etc beyond the weight loss at the kitchen scales?

Bez - Member
I went with building my own - Shimano hubs, light and low profile rims, radial everywhere except 3x on the rear drive side.

Options open up massively once you realise that (a) the weight saving of a few spokes over a 32 spoke build is too small to care about

You do realise you saved much less weight for more disadvantages going radial, don't you?

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

mboy: any evidence re. aero spokes?

All anecdotal of course...

Seriously though, aero on an MTB just makes no sense, on a road bike, considering it's the item(s) that are moving through the air the fastest by some considerable margin (much faster than the speed of the rim profile going forwards), any aero gain at the spokes should be felt.

and I'm concerned re. your wheelbuilder - CXP22s are solid.

So am I... Giant! Took it back to the shop after first 150 miles, they put an extra turn on each nipple, and they've come loose again. Maybe it's the low spoke count, or the poor build, tempted to rebuild the wheels properly myself (only reason I haven't yet is to preserve the warranty on them) and use locking compound on the nipples.

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

mboy - Member
Seriously though, aero on an MTB just makes no sense, on a road bike, considering it's the item(s) that are moving through the air the fastest by some considerable margin (much faster than the speed of the rim profile going forwards), any aero gain at the spokes should be felt.

I understand the theory, it's evidence I'm after...and the same argument holds for mtb and road - what I think you mean is that the speeds on mtbs aren't high enough to make it significant.

For me just want the bike to feel nice and light - I unless aero spokes made a significant difference (and let's face it we'd all be using them) it doesn't matter, but then I'm not racing/anxious about racing.

Sounds like the way to go on your CP22s (and any warranty on a crap build is worthless!). Please tell me they're not radial?

Posted 6 months ago #
Iain Gillam - Member

Aero dynamics is a more important consideration than weight apart from going up hills above 7%. I've done a lot of research into the benefits of aero wheels and there are plenty of research papers out there which come to much the same conclusions. The difference between box section wheels and aero wheels is staggering and if you have the cash, from an aero perspective there is no reason what so ever to buy anything else except Zipps. Their marketing blurb accentuates their advantage but independent papers time and time again still verify they are the fastest wheels at the majority of yaw angles.

Aerodynamics wouldn't be my first priority for road wheels though, stiffness would. My 32 spoke track wheels are about 2kg and accelerate faster than any wheel I have ridden. In a track sprint where you would have thought weight was a key consideration they go for heavy disc wheels as all they are looking for is max stiffness. For that reason a nice set of 32 spoke open pros might be a good choice.

I have been looking for a set of wheels around this price and Rose bikes are doing 105 on Open pro's for around £200.00 I think, Ribble has a wheel build option on the website for £25.00 for spokes and build, and Ultegra hubs for £100.00 ish only problem is rims aren't up on the website. I was tempted to give them a ring and seeif they had any rims in as if they have a nice 30mm rim that would be a good option. Visions on Planet X are in budget, Ultegra on Planet X (flexy I've heard though), Sram AL27's on fudges, Bontrager race light on fudges should give you a few options to think over.

Iain

Posted 6 months ago #
lazybike - Member

I have a pair of each, ird cadence/ambrosio, and rs80's, I prefer the rs's, they feel a bit stiffer but still ride comfy, having said that, I do worry about breaking a spoke and having to walk home...

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Interesting.

Not everyone (or even many?) is prioritising sprinting for their road wheels tho - how many even race?

Posted 6 months ago #
lazybike - Member

I did some crits on my handbuilts, wouldn't call myself a sprinter though.

Posted 6 months ago #
mattyh222 - Member

got some Ksyriums for sale if you want Dave?

Posted 6 months ago #
BIGMAN - Member

Maybe to add my 2p...

Zips I must agreenare a super stiff rim. I have 303s and 404s. Both are for road racing. As mentioned above I find the braking nowherennearnas good as a normal Ali rim.

In regards normal wheels I think for a stiff rim you can not beat an ambrosio nemesis. Mine have been light and day compared tom the mavic tub the replaced. Stiffer and the wheel now accelerated better IMO. I have gone to 2 cross for added stiffness on the rear.

Stans 340. Used a set for a year now. I have a set on my crosser I train on. Not as stiff as the ambrosio. Can feel them flex under hard accelerations and surges. Run 32spoke 3 cross. I did have one completely blow tension on an alpine descent this year. That however was a rim defect and itnwas replaced.

Open pro rims are nice and stiff. Reasonably priced and readily available. For a rim for all purposes they are hard to beat!

Have a look at alpha wheels. He builds some very good wheels at very reasonable prices! Built a set of cross wheels for a friend recently and they were a complete bargain!

Posted 6 months ago #
njee20 - Member

I struggle with the relevance of track comparisons, there's no hills, no wind, no repeated acceleration. You have a massive jump and then hold your speed, so heavier wheels make sense.

With everything I've said above in mind, much as it pains me as a seasoned wheel builder, you're far better off buying off the shelf these days as you just get so much more for your money...

Rubbish! A pair of those Planet-X carbon rims, some of those eBay 6-pawl hubs and some Revolutions from Germany... 1000g wheelset for less than £300. Show me a factory build for that? Or... Get some deep section rims off the 'bay, with the aforementioned hubs and maybe some Aerolites and have a 1200g set of aero wheels for the same price. Or Alphas for a 1200g clincher set up. That vs a mid range Ksyrium, or Shimano RS80s. Know what I'd choose.

Posted 6 months ago #
Jamie - Member

My bike, a Giant Defy, is a brilliant bit of kit, but the factory wheels are utter poo (despite the Mavic rims).

Same as you mate, but while the wheels are pretty rough and ready, they have stood up to 3000 miles of being smacked through my local pitted country lanes.

I wanted to to get some nice new ones, but the punishment they would get makes me wonder if I should stick to the Defy's.

Posted 6 months ago #
Iain Gillam - Member

I was using sprinting as an example of where light weight should make a massive difference, if you've ever ridden a set of wheels that rub on the brake blocks as soon as you get out of the saddle to climb a hill you can see the point I'm trying to make. Having little weight to accelerate is of no benefit if it impairs your ability to accelerate it in the first place. As for the track reference Discs are used on the rear in all of the endurance events as well, scratch, points and devil races make crits seam very tame with the amount and ferocity of the changes in pace.

Iain

Posted 6 months ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Dear All,

thanks for the info, a bit to think about. I cocked up the 2nd link in my first post, it was these wheels from action sports at 1390g: http://www.actionsports.de/gb/Wheels/Wheelset-Specials/Fun-Works-N76-NoTubes-ZTR-Alpha-340-Road-Laufradsatz-1390g::13603.html

Dont know what the hubs are like, but 32 spoke so should be easily stiff enough for me. If I built my own on the ebay hubs then they'd probably work out at a couple of hundred grammes lighter. I dont know whether its worth the effort or not though. How tricky is it to build road wheels compared to mtb ones? I've built a couple and bothe turned out ok, although they werent dead true.

got some Ksyriums for sale if you want Dave?

What sort of Ksyriums are they Hoyle? Could be interested. Fancy something dead light though.

Posted 6 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

building is more or less the same rd vs mtb...tho you need to watch spoke tension on alphas and loctite them.

njee20 is the biggest exponent of those hubs IIRC so you can blame him if they ***** up

As I think I said already, (EDIT) I'd trade light weight/cheapness for spares avaiability/durability (i.e. shimano). light front hub no prob tho - American Classic is 70g odd?

Posted 6 months ago #
Bez - Member

"You do realise you saved much less weight for more disadvantages going radial, don't you? "

Oh, it wasn't for weight saving reasons. Advantages:

1. They look awesome.
2. You don't need a 2. They look awesome.

(Actually, 2 is: Should be more resistant to NDS breakage. Which is the only problem I've ever had with (badly built) wheels.)

Posted 6 months ago #
TheDoctor - Member

yeah but american classic hubs are shonky

Posted 6 months ago #
njee20 - Member

njee20 is the biggest exponent of those hubs IIRC so you can blame him if they ***** up

Not used the FunWorks hubs, asked about them in a few places, a couple of people on WW said good things. I'd probably just get some 6-pawl eBay jobs though myself. Unless I could find another Chin Huar manufactured hub, like the A2Zs. Road hubs aren't exactly getting a hard life though, I'd not worry too much myself.

Posted 6 months ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Still undecided. After a bit of reading, it appears the Stans Rims sound like a bit of a faff to build with, especially since I dont have a spoke tension meter (which sounds crucial with these rims)

Wondering whether to go for Mavic Open Pro's or similar with a 28/28 build?

Posted 6 months ago #
mudshark - Member

Aero dynamics is a more important consideration than weight apart from going up hills above 7%

Surely it depends on your speed? A lardy slow sort of a bloke struggling up a hill will benefit far less from aeroness than a pro racing up. So a pro may still benefit from aero wheels at 10% whilst the average STWer may not at a lesser incline.

Posted 6 months ago #
paul4stones - Member

I built some Open Pros on Novatech hubs, 3x all from Sdeals for about £135 in the summer I think. For CX really and I was advised about the spec on the UKCyclocross forum but they are so nice I'm just using them on the road at the mo until my old wheels are completely shot.

Posted 6 months ago #

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